Should killers see hook stages?
Question is in the title.
Honestly, I see no reason why the killer shouldn't be allowed to see the hook stages. It wouldn't really make tunneling easier but it might help killers, who want to go for as many hooks as possible.
I personally don't have a lot of trouble counting hook stages but I did experiment with it before and made a point out of not counting and the results were an average of 5.4 hooks for the first kill. This is what happens when I do not count hooks and simply go for whoever I can find / down quickly. Now, I don't know about you, but I'd rather play against a killer, who gets their first kill at 9 hooks than at 5.
Now consider what a killer needs to do in order to tunnel as opposed to what they need to do in order to play as 'fair' as possible. Tunneling requires a killer to count to 3. Going for as many hooks as possible on the other hand requires them to count to 2 on 4 different survivors. So it's actually easier to tunnel. Is that really what we want?
What do you think about it?
Comments
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Yes, they should please.
The thing is, Killers who will want to tunnel you don't need the hook stage counter anyway since they will just know who their main target is and which state they are atm.
For Killers who want to play more fairly or sometimes even don't want to kill Survivors, you can forget who on which stage is and yep... RIP. Also some perks reguire you to have alive Survivor for the perk to work, killing them (forgeting the stage) or placing something like Trap as Pig on someone dead, will just backfire you.
It would only really effect Killers who want to keep some Survivor(s) alive. Killers who go for kills don't need and it doesn't effect them.
Just give more QoL stuff to Killers too please, not just Survivors.
28 -
Honestly I don't think it would really encourage tunneling, people who want to tunnel are only focusing on one survivor anyway so they don't have trouble keeping track of hooks.
I don't see how it would be useful for non-tunneling killers either (like the survivor hook count tbh) but if the people want it then why not
9 -
No it encourages tunneling and efficient plays. If killer wants it they should memorize it. That's a part of effort and commitment and shouldn't be given for free
4 -
As far as I'm concerned it would make NOT tunneling easier.
Tunneling only requires to remember one survivor.
Not tunneling requires to remember the state of four, sometimes identical, survivors. When I'm tired I can't be bothered.
24 -
Yes. In fact, back when this feature was unveiled, many people questioned why the killer couldn't see hook stages. I think it was unanimously agreed upon within the community that killers should be able to see hook states.
BHVR, however, believes that it would encourage tunneling. I'm pretty sure that's something almost everyone disagrees with.
It really doesn't. If a killer wants to tunnel, they don't need to know who hasn't been hooked. They only need to remember that Survivor A has been hooked.
19 -
I've said this before, if people are so concerned that showing hook stages to the killer would promote tunneling too much, at least implement some sort of obvious audio cue when you pick up a survivor that's on death hook. A music sting or something. This warns killers that are trying to rotate hooks that they are about to take someone out of the game. At the same time, it doesn't help tunneling killers at all because they were going to hook that person anyway.
Seeing hook stages would be way better so we aren't wasting time chasing that person in the first place, but an audio cue would at least be an acceptable compromise.
14 -
When I'm being serious, I'm actively thinking about and engaged with hook stages, so it's not a problem that hook stages aren't shown to me. I don't deliberately tunnel as a rule, but if presented with an opportunity to get people on Death Hook I will take it for pressure and force them to hide more, and ofc if they then keep playing aggressively I will take the kill or force someone to lose a hook in their stead. Ofc if I wanted to tunnel, I don't need the HUD to help me.
However there are times I have been playing a chill game and not been paying full attention and forgotten who I've hooked, then accidentally "tunneled" a player out early because I thought they had another hook stage... it's entirely a product of me being lazy, not because it's hard to track hook stages.
With that in mind I consider tracking hook stages a part of the skillset of the killer, and adding them kinda dumbs that down, so I'm not really in favour of them being indicated on HUD... but I also wouldn't really be against it either.
4 -
Read this after I already posted, so my bad for the double post.
Like this idea. Having the survivor doing a more laboured groan of pain would be a good immersive audio cue....
Edit: Although as that is a lot of new audio files, perhaps a sort of Entity excitement audio cue would be good... like a brief louder Whipers-like howl....
6 -
Idc, I can count. Unless there are 4 similar characters.
2 -
If I'm playing for the win, I will only hook one survivor or two until they die and I don't need the counter.
If I'm playing chill I'm hooking at random and I might not even count them.
Guess which type of gameplay BHVR wants to promote.
3 -
I would love it. A little QoL to remember all hooks in long games after obviously spreading hooks.
If i want to tunnel Meg, Meg its going down no matter what,i dont need to see hooks.
4 -
Can you explain why being able to see every ones hook states encourages tunnelling? Today if I was going to actively tunnel I simply have to remember 1character and focus them down. Why would seeing their hook state make the easier or encourage that?
Conversely today if I want to have a chill game and 8-12 hook I need to track all 4 and how many times I've gotten each, on top of all of the other things killers need to track/think about. That's much harder to do consistently and having a tracker for it makes it much easier.
The only instance where it might make it easier that I can think of is when 2 or more survivors look identical, which is rare enough already. Even then for someone focused on tunnelling I imagine tracking who is in chase with you makes it easy enough to do, I usually give up 8-12 hooking at that point personally because it's far too much of a pain to do.
10 -
I would really like to see the hook counters as a killer, too, but for a reason outside of the game itself:
I track my games with Nightlight, and that also allows tracking the hook stages. But since they are not shown in the end game stats, so NIghtlight cannot extract that on it's own, I have to set hook stages of each survivor myself. With playing survivor, thats usually not an issue, bc I can look at the hook stages right before a game ends. But with killer, I can only look at the general hook counter. And if I had say 9 hooks, and two got out, I may not know which of the two had one, and which had two hooks.
So if the devs don't want to change the hook counters not being visible for a killer, maybe at least add this info to the end game stats.
6 -
I wouldn't feel any changes are needed for seeing hook stages, since there is already a counter for overall hook stages and I presume most people playing will have a memory and the rudimentary knowledge of mathematics to keep track regardless.
It feels unnecessary to me, because all it would do at most is encourage a small handful of killers to target survivors. It doesn't really add anything more beneficial.
Basically, there are more pressing matters for BHVR to be pushing ahead with than something which will really do nothing overall.
2 -
I can't for the life of me keep track of hook counts. There's just too many other things to focus on and I'll almost certainly lose count at some point. So even if I want to play nice and 8 hook everyone before I get a kill, I can't. And I've accidentally killed survivors that I've wanted to spare in the past. So after a certain point, I just stop hooking on those rare occasions when I want to turn friendly and let everyone go.
So yes, I'd like to see this change. It will let me spread my hooks against weaker teams and like others have said, tunnellers don't need the help to do what they do anyway. They know who they'll be dumping out of the game early.
That said, there's an argument to be made that hook management is a skill Killers need to develop and letting them know exactly who they need to target at a key point of the game will give them an unfair advantage. Even though I can't remember the hook states, I can sometimes tell who's on death hook by the way the other survivors are trying to take hits for them.
4 -
Good point about certain killer powers and perks. That is something that I hadn't considered before.
It's not the most pressing concern by far but it is something that I think they could squeeze into a mid chapter patch. I mean, they already have the code written, so the only thing left to do is to implement it again for killers.
It's not a shame, if people have trouble with keeping tracks of mulitple things at once, while simultaneously concentrating on the actual gameplay. It's quite a bit of (to me) unnecessary cognitive load, that doesn't need to be there in the first place. Especially when it is easier to tunnel because that entails less cognitive load. That's the main reason why I would like this feature for killers.
6 -
Playing killer well, especially if your trying to rotate hooks means keeping track of:
- The locations and activities of each survivor.
- Which cosmetic model applies to each survivor.
- Suspected perk and item loadouts of each survivor.
- Status of each generator.
- Status of key environmental objects (God pallets, breakable walls.)
- Map layout for this particular game.
- Status and location of killer objects (totems, traps, etc.)
- and of course as is being discussed individual hook status of each survivor.
All while constantly re-evaluating your approach to the macro game as well as thinking through the micro game in chase.
It's a bit more taxing than just "rudimentary knowledge of mathmatics".
9 -
It's really not as complex as you make it. As with anything, the brain is processing many things at once. It's really impressive how much it can deal with and certainly all the examples you gave are there for the vast majority. The brain will retain what the most important bits of information are.
Counting hooks is rudimentary maths. It takes little use of the mind. You'd only not know if you weren't being aware (by that I mean that someone is distracted by something beyond the game mostly, like what to do later or not involved enough to care).
2 -
Well, I guess we can file it under an accessibility option for us dumb people. I can do rudimentary math and I can count hooks just fine. The problem is retaining that information in a flood of other information as well or remembering if the survivor you hooked was the Meg with the grey pants or the Meg with the same outfit but slightly darker grey pants.
6 -
Nah dogs, it's really simple math and memorizing. Just put down the good good and redirect your focus to the match.
1 -
You could just take notes on a tally on a piece of paper and do EXACTLY the same thing. There is 0 reason for it not to exist.
4 -
If its so easy to keep track of that info, why do survivors need the UI for it?
Just be fair and give it to killers.
12 -
I would love to see the hook stages as a killer. So I don't tunnel accidentally. Especially if there are triplets or quadruples. (Which are Megs or Claudettes in most cases) :P
And since I love to hook everyone twice and let the last one escape (given the case I am in advantage at a game), sometimes it happens I can't remember whom of the last two living Survivors was the one with stage 1 and who was the one with stage 2. Sometimes I kill the one who already has been hooked twice, because I mess up :(
5 -
It does not though I don't ever have trouble remembering who is hooked twice when i tunnel but sometimea I kill accidentally survivors, because I didn't know they were hooked already twice or took chances earlier and end up killing them earlier I wanted. So it would do opposite.
5 -
Why survivors get to shown how many gens/hooks they have shouldn't they memorize that? Why only killer has to why double standard's for killer?
10 -
In a compartment with an indication of which survivor you are running after, it would encourage "prioritization" (more precisely, it facilitated, and then not so much, but still)which many also consider a tunnel. I think because of this logic, they did not do it.
0 -
No need. You're not dumb, but you may not be fully focused on the game, which happens to every single player. It's not a crime nor unusual. However, I admire the jump you made to that conclusion when I had earlier said not being able to keep up is due to other distractions.
1 -
Because if you aren't keeping track of your own objective it can bite you, and the game shouldn't default to telling the player 'do this next and you'll probably win'.
It's the same reason survivors don't know every gen location by default. Sure, losing track of your objective and focusing on the wrong one can 3 gen your team and throw the game, but the match doesn't have a UI element or even any feedback at all to tell you that's happening. It's up to game sense of the player(s) to avoid that situation.
There's no reason to replace the game sense element of 'which objective is optimal for me to pursue next' for either side. That includes the killer.
3 -
Hook counting has nothing to do with game sense though. It's just a little chore the killer has to do. It's not hard but I don't see why it needs to be done in the first place.
5 -
They say it's to stop tunneling, but people who want to tunnel are going to keep track of that anyway, so it literally does not stop tunneling.
If they added it, what it WOULD do is allow killers who prefer not to double hook people to actively AVOID unintentionally double hooking people. If anything, it would cause tunneling numbers to go DOWN.
7 -
In that case, survivors should not have a gen tracker or how many times anyone on their team has been hooked. They should keep track of that in their heads, right? After all, not getting hooked is one of the survivor objectives.
8 -
your encouraging tunnel UI. the only skill behind tunneling now a days is remember hook count. it is not particular hard skill for killer but many killer don't do it.
0 -
We don't really care either way but just for the fun of it:
Pros:
- One less thing for killers to remeber/focus on
- Makes it easier for killers who want to rotate or not tunnel (sorta ties into the above)
Cons:
- Makes it easier to tunnel in certain situations (Ex: 4 of the same claudettes)
- Will cause the unreasonables to call "tunnel" more
3 -
No, it's not distraction. When I'm online, with whatever game, I'm focused on the game almost to the point of it being problematic. Maybe it's no big deal for you, but for many of us, it's a problem and by association a problem for the survivors we play against.
3 -
honestly... I don't think there's any reason.
they should add it and leave it up for a couple month or so and see the results.
and to everyone saying "it's a skill killers must have"
why is it a skill that the survivors don't need to have anymore?
killers who wanna tunnel will tunnel. this UI would help people who wanna avoid tunneling a lot more.
honestly, same. and how many gens were left and stuff... put that info in the end game screen somewhere
7 -
it is giving UI for player that are not good at tunneling to tunnel efficiently.
1 -
who, that is trying to tunnel, needs it? you really think people can't remember the one person?
6 -
read the big bold title. you would not be asking for a change that you do not need.
1 -
I don't need it, I don't need many changes that I ask for(and so do most people). it would just be very convenient.
would help me avoid killing someone prematurely, and make sure I get to 8 hooks before someone dies in those game where the survivors are just outclassed...
much like how I also didn't need the survivor version of it before. but it was quite convenient when it was implemented.
like the easier struggle on hook and while being carried.
4 -
The gen tracker and hook circle for killer are identical. They give a general understanding of the 'game score' but give no indication of which objective you should focus on to play optimally.
Giving the killer an indicator that specifically said 'go for this person next' is equivalent to survivors having an aura for 'do this gen next', which is clearly absurd.
But in both cases if you're paying attention, you can figure it out for yourself with game sense as the match plays out.
2 -
dejavu?
1 -
Again, if you all are so worried about tunneling with it, just give us an auditory cue when we pick up a survivor on death hook. Simple compromise with zero downside.
2 -
While I can see the concern for some in regards to tunneling, it's already a pretty prevalent problem for the game already so letting killers see the hook stages only helps the non tunnelers see where they are with all the survivors
7 -
Their official stance on the matter was that it promoted tunneling, but a killer who wants to tunnel doesn't need the HUD to tell them that. Let's say you have Kate, Claudette, Dwight and David in a match.
Dwight's the first found, first downed, and first hooked. The killer knows that Dwight has been hooked once. Dwight gets rescued. The killer targets Dwight again. No need to worry about not having a tally next to Dwight's name to tell them that they've hooked Dwight.
7 -
That doesn't make any sense. If you've hooked Dwight, you know to target him as soon as he's unhooked.
7 -
As a Pig main especially, I would VERY MUCH appreciate this, especially when I am accepting boops. I want to be able to still hook everyone twice, but then let them out if they paid the boop tax, but sometimes it can be hard to remember how many hooks they have, even worse when there is multiple of the same survivor.
6 -
Yeah I'd like to see hook states as killer. I like to try and double hook all survivors before I sacrifice anyone. The amount of times I've inadvertently put a surv on 3rd hook stage early is really annoying.
Plus it wouldn't encourage tunneling. A tunneling killer is simply focussing out 1 survivor and it's very easy to keep track of.
3 -
people forget who they hooked. that is why your asking a UI to not forget. this is something survivor seeing gen aura's. counting hook is a basic killer skill.
3 -
People remember when they hooked 1 survivor. If they do want to tunnel, they will focus on that. But counting hook stages on 4 different people is a different story. It's easy to mix up when you go for different survivors.
6 -
People who tunnel don't forget that they hooked Dwight less than a minute ago. There's no reason for killer to not have it. File it under accessibility if you wish, but counting hooks isn't a big deal unless you're going for a 12-hook game.
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