We're going on 5 months that MFT is still unchanged

😏

imagine saying that and just showing a nemesis game range killer , easy to force a pre-drop while losing almost no distance against MFT if played correctly and survivor were using "flashlights" , now try to do the same with trapper / legion / oni and pig , if a survivor wants to be annoying they can just pre-drop and hold W, there is something you can do there? NO , you just are forced to break any safe pallet they dropped and lose a lot of distance for free after that , the 3% also works with DH and Styptic mah guy , thats BS as hell am sorry is just people being bad with the perk rather than the perk being "balanced" as some people say because a lot of those players running the perk use it as a training tool for looping rather than abusing the extra distance it gives that can be enough to extend a chase for even longer without effort other than "you get hit , get rewarded , now you are harder to catch".

the perk likely not changing due to mizark3 post. you can still win as killer. The perk is another DH type extend chase perk.

If you are a variety Killer then you have learned .4m/s difference with Huntress/Spirit/etc. as well as the .6m/s difference. MfT yields a .48m/s difference, or essentially the Spirit speed with more wiggle room. 1 level of Bloodlust does essentially the same thing with a .68m/s difference, or essentially normal M1 with wiggle room.

There are also difference learning opportunities in game with Dead Dawg Shack vs normal Shack, the length differences of LT walls across different realms (which are different, check out Mr TatorHead's looping guides where he breaks that down, good as Survivor and Killer to know what you should do, or how to counter it, also he uses no perks as Killer and Surv, and pejoratively calls 'Made for This' 'Paid for This' as a joke, I thought that was funny), Clown Yellow Speed/Purple Speed/Both Speed, Coup De Grace extra distance. Should we delete 4.4 Killers because you have to learn a different speed? Even then, 4.4 Killers have a power to secure hits. Huntress rounds the corner and clips the ankle with a Hatchet, Spirit phases, Deathslinger clips the top of the pill hitbox to negate most loops. All of which is still possible against MfT.

Made for This is an exhaustion perk, which means it is mutually exclusive with things like Sprint Burst and Lithe, however it can be stacked with DH/BL. I can only agree with it being a problem when stacked, as that does give essentially 1 chase with 2 Exhaustion perks, then another with none.

Also I did say in the original post as what, the second line, the endurance should be swapped onto another perk, so I already accounted for that in the second line and it appears you didn't read that. I wrote 3 sentences and you ignored 1/3rd that.

Personally I still think Sprint Burst is the best Exhaustion perk because weaker and stronger players can make great use of it, with all weaker players needing to do is reach a pallet. MfT requires a bit of looping knowledge, which weaker players don't have. Then stronger players will be able to 99 SBs effectively, and use it mid loop on a mindgame to drop Bloodlust or swap to another tile, but MfT users still need to force the pallet kick to drop BL.

That's fair, you didn't see the gameplay, but I only got 2 uses of Game Afoot for the speed. They were trying to greed pallets and force me to whip at pallet points, so I nearly never got the haste (because I needed them to stun me with Nemesis perk to swap Obs to them before breaking the pallet with whip for the speed and downing them with the exposed Hubris, I didn't get a single Hubris down sadly). (Also to meme a bit on you, Trapper will be running 123.625 for 5s post trap, so HAH. TRAPPER REIGNS SUPREME!!!)

How is game sense a strawman? I didn't set that up as my opposition's position so I could knock it down. I introduced it as a separate concept that can be utilized to bypass the alleged problem. It would be more accurate to claim my stance is "skill dif git gud". I use the term 'game sense' as a substitute for 'macro skill'. Macro being when to take or drop chase, which gen to defend and let pop, knowing when and where Survivors will attempt map movements, such as attempting a hook rescue, and from what direction. In that particular Nemmy game I had the game sense to recognize: "since gens 1 and 2 popped at the north and west of the map, they will focus their attention on the south and east of the map, so I should corral the current/next chase in that direction in case the 4th Surv is working a gen there. Ahh there was a Survivor on the southeast gen, so now the threat of this chase prevents them from working that gen while I am still chasing the original Survivor. Now the south east is largely free of pallets (being Nemesis), they will have a significantly more difficult match to pump gens in a deadzone."

I mean I can understand it as a nuisance factor. I just feel SB is near strictly superior in all skill brackets. As long as those 2 are mutually exclusive I'm fine with MfT.

This game in general is filled with major nuisance factors like too juicy of healing when you didn't bring Sloppy, or bringing Blast Mine when the Killer doesn't kick gens, or bringing a heal build and rolling into plague, or bringing a ultimate rescue build and being facecamped from the onset, or getting Devour Hope cleansed 15-20s into the match when you forgot to bring the Mori offering for your daily, or people DCing on the first Doctor Blast (like really, Doctor is too much for you?!?!?!). I just think MfT isn't as annoying as the other nuisance factors.

MfT's arguable greatest strength comes from tightly looping smaller loops to abuse hitbox size differences, which is also the best way to play against Nemesis, by greeding pallets to continuously force Whip attempts (especially early when he needs infection to break them). Pre-drop only works on the larger loops or god pallets, but filler pallets (which are most pallets) require the tight loop + greed pallet for generally optimal gameplay. Also Flashlights are of particular effectiveness against Nemesis in negating most gen pressure from zombies.

As far as a normal M1 pre-drop hold W, you walk around the pallet and build Bloodlust with the time they lost being animation locked. I know some Killer mains joke about a Survivor rulebook, but tenet 374: "thou must breaketh every pallet dropeth, no mindgames or bloodlusting allowedeth" for some reason is followed by all too many Killers. You can kick it later, its fine. Safe pallets, sure, but those are few and far between. I want to say if we round up to 20 pallets per map (on average), only 5 (on average) are truly safe (forced to kick). Once they are gone, they are gone. I'm glad to break those asap.

I don't quite understand the "you get hit, get rewarded, now you are harder to catch" complaint. START LIST*

DS/OTR/Unbreakable/Resilience/Iron Will/Adrenaline/Aftercare/Alert/Any Means Necessary/Autodidact/Better than New/Bite the Bullet/Blood Pact/Blood Rush/Boil Over/CoH/BT/Botany/Breakdown/Buckle Up/DH/Deliverance/Desperate Measures/Empathic Connection/Empathy/Fast Track/Flip-Flop/Guardian/Inner Focus/Inner Healing/Kindred/Kinship/Low Profile/Lucky Break/Mettle of Man/No One Left Behind/Overcome/Pharmacy/Plot Twist/Power Struggle/Quick Gambit/Reactive Healing/Reassurance/Renewal/Resurgence/Self-Care/Slippery Meat/Sole Survivor/Solidarity/Soul Guard/Collective Stealth/Power of Two/Tenacity/This Is Not Happening/Vigil/We'll Make It/We're Gonna Live Forever

*END LIST all also require a Survivor to be injured, hooked, downed, or 'fail' in some way or fashion, and 'reward' that same or a different Survivor for doing so. To be fair, not all give a chase benefit specifically, so if that was the particular pain point you can shrink the list a bit. They also (mostly) aren't mutually exclusive with the superior Sprint Burst. As long as Sprint Burst reigns supreme, I don't have a problem with MfT's speed. I did address how I dislike the 'stacking' potential with DH/BL in the above reply to Hanuka5, but I didn't get to say that yet in your timeframe, so that's fair.

Guy ignores the 3 sentences also included above the picture to include context of only 1 slowdown perk and the lack of tunneling. (And the replies to everyone else replying to him, but that has a minute difference on the forum, so it was likely not seen to be fair.)

I understand the point, 1 example doesn't equate to every match, but I have consistently won against MfT users, and I found the minimal slowdown match a particularly funny example, as well as a recent example.

I had a Freddy match with nearly the same results, and this was when OC was bugged to not work if Survivors gen tap, and my 2 totems got cleansed near instantly.

Yeah but the strict fact of "oh you injured them now they're rewarded with a 3% speed boost" is such a stupid idea.

Who teaches you math?

20% of 15 sec is 3sec

I hard disagree with it overshadowing every other chase perk, and am a fervent Sprint Burst (word for I think its the most powerful, but not overpowered, my vocab is failing me atm). As long as they remain mutually exclusive, MfT is a gift in the face of SB. That is where my confusions lie. It would be like someone saying "I hate going against Deathslinger, he is just too OP, nothing else compares to him" while Nurse/Blight/Spirit still exist or "Dredge is too stealthy, there isn't a Killer more stealthy than him" when Ghosty/Pig/Myers(especially with Monitor or other perk support) exist. As an alternative it would be like complaining about Survivors healing too fast off hook with Botany, while ignoring We'll Make It. That's what I'm not getting. I see SB as strictly superior. It's like complaining a 500ml bottle of soda has too much sugar, then you down a 2-liter.

To be fair, you can hate more than 1 thing and for different reasons, and if they despise Sprint Burst in that same Nurse/Blight/Spirit realm as a "its always BS, and most people don't need to qualify their opinion", then I can understand. That's the problem though, I'm not seeing 'nerf SB' posts at the same frequency of 'nerf Nurse/Blight/Spirit/MfT' posts. I honestly don't recall seeing a 'nerf SB' thread (maybe even post) within a month even.

My matches are colossally more difficult against Sprint Burst/Adrenaline than against MfT/Hope. Maybe it's just my playstyle, but behind Ghosty, I probably have the most (normal M1*) matches on Clown and Legion, and they aren't exactly stealthy. MfT users save me from SB users, and I thank them for it. The Ghosty pallet stun sigh is the perfect example of my response to SB.

(*At one point I hard dedicated playing Blight to find counterplay, and I only found gaps in my knowledge or misplays on my part. When I learned how to bounce at new loops, counterplay didn't exist, so it was on the Blight player to be bad at Blight for counterplay to exist, and I don't find that enjoyable on either end, as my wins mean nothing, and losses mean I sucked. I need a chance at failure beyond my control for the brain chemicals to activate on win, otherwise I'd just play singleplayer games with cheat engine and god mode for my 'fix'.)

But what does the performance of the perk in a micro setting have to do with the perk's balancing in the actual game?

A powerless killer in a 1v1 where the survivor doesn't have to worry about preserving resources isn't really going to tell you much of anything at all about how strong any perk is, especially chase perks. Put something like Sprint Burst or Lithe in that scenario and not only will it completely shred MFT's value, it'll also substantially outperform real match examples of itself.

Yes, an ETA for the destruction of this perk.

But for real, I have said it a couple of times here already: maybe BHVR woke up to the fact that the more balanced the game became, the more players optimised the fun out of it. Maybe MFT and Ultimate Weapon are BHVRs move to bringt back some of that old feeling by giving both sides overtuned playthings that the other side hates, but they themselve love.

We don't need 4 overtuned meta perks, but maybe two mutually exclusive ones per side wouldn't hurt the game.

ahh My favorite program on "MFT". I been fiending for the next episode

I'm not sure what I said would make you think I don't play Killer when that's the bulk of my playtime, but the 4.4 chase is much different than the 4.6 chase during the entire leadup before the lunge (the majority of the chase, and also often because 4.4s rely on power to injure/down people rather than solely M1). You get a feel for how many more rotations people can get based on the speed differential and how close or loose you and they each loop the structure. When I played Huntress quite a bit, there are times where you run out of ammo or want to preserve a final hatchet, and you think you can get the M1, but you need to loop longer to get that M1 hit instead.

As far as Coup is concerned, what part of it is what you dislike? The 'you don't know how many tokens remain' aspect, or the initial surprise. I feel as though it fits quite well alongside Hexes and Spirit Fury. The Killer gets value with it maybe a couple of times, then the Survivors can play around the Killer theoretically always having it. (Hexes though have the additional counterplay that Survivors can cleanse them.) If you are also against Spirit Fury, then completely fair, you do you. If I had hard cash money on a match I'd probably agree with you, but the lack of knowing (your opponents perks/add-ons) and finding out is part of the appeal of the game to me.

With the Sprint Burst / Made for This final part, my point was in comparison to one another. If 2 equal skill Survivors each have the other perk, I've only seen a weird middle ground of skill where MfT was better. When I get autofilled into babies, SB is better for them. When I get the sweat squad on comms, SB is better for them. When I get the Survivors that still walk with SB ready, but not all time like babies, and never 99 SB, those skill level Survs are better off with MfT. Even then though, the additional flaw of MfT users too often becoming overconfident while injured, makes them not heal even when it would be beneficial, so that is a very slim margin where MfT is better. Most Survivors the game sends my way are weaker than the sweat SWF on comms, (specifically sweat SWF, not normal SWF, normal SWFs are weaker than strong independent Survivors as they often throw for altruism) but stronger than the margin where MfT is better. So yes, you don't need any skill to get value from MfT, I just feel at the vast majority of skill levels (at least that I deal with) Survivors are better off with SB. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that earlier.

TBH I wouldn't use those killers as examples of why MFT is ok.

Ghostface can insta-down, bypassing MFT at least on the initial down. Or, can expose a survivor who's already injured to make them leave the area expecting to be chased while Ghosty goes for another survivor. This killer has an advantage in this area. However if they continually get revealed, or get in a straight unstealthed chase, Ghosty will suffer the same as any other M1 killer. They have a way around it, for at least a little while, which gives them an advantage.

Wraith has speed+stealth, and as such has a much easier time dealing with MFT in general solo queue. VS decent SWFs and highly-skilled solos, MFT is problematic (especially when combined with other speed/second chance perks). Wraith has a couple of basekit options to work with, though.

Knight is more easily able to cut off or herd survivors in close quarters for a hit/down/endurance removal, or drop a guard on a gen to temporarily keep a survivor off of it even if they can't catch them. But if a survivor escapes and is even able to shift W out into an open area, MFT gives the survivor an easier/longer chase and can even make it useless for the Knight to try to summon.

Killers with speed, insta-down, or teleport will fare much better vs MFT and its stacking with other speed perks. This doesn't mean the perk isn't problematic, even if you discount the issues all of the other killers will have vs it.

BHVR gave killers Bloodlust to help out in areas of maps that would be a problem for them to catch a survivor (even though this is negated by having to break so many safe pallets). Then BHVR turned around and without fixing the map issues that caused Bloodlust to exist, gave survivors a perk that even when pallets are gone and there are no windows, brings back almost the same problem killers had before Bloodlust was added. Except this works everywhere, and just requires taking a hit after the chase/pallets/windows/looping have already been going on. The icing on top of this re-breaking chase and loops, is that endurance was included for no reason at all.

The salt in the wound is that from what's been discussed so far, whenever BHVR finally nerfs MFT, they're most likely to just do something non-effective, like remove the endurance component. Which isn't the reason that anyone runs the perk. Many survivor's defense of the perk has already said if the perk loses the speed there won't be a reason to run it, which is an admission that speed is the reason for it to take up a slot.

A proper nerf would be removing the endurance, plus making it time-limited, token-based, or both. Such as, the perk starts with three tokens at the beginning of the trial. When injured, a token is removed and the survivor receives a 3% speed boost for 7 seconds, then the perk deactivates. The perk cannot reactivate until the survivor has been completely healed by any means. Once all three tokens are used, the perk deactivates for the remainder of the trial. This would have the perk maintain value, but without being broken.

Alternatively, they could remove the endurance, leave the rest of the perk as-is, and remove killers losing Bloodlust after breaking a pallet. The perk keeps its value, and killers (especially M1s without speed or insta-down) still get to build Bloodlust as it was intended to chase down the survivors. I think the time-limited/token-based option is both the more fair and more realistic choice, though.

Unfortunately this isn't a real-world scenario. You lose Bloodlust as soon as you break a pallet. Although not all pallets have to be broken, there's a good number that does. Especially if you don't want it to bite you in the @ss later (ex: Gideon's).

For this to work, BHVR would have to remove killers losing Bloodlust from pallet breaks. Even then, places like the main house in GoJ exists, where you can lose Bloodlust constantly with a survivor just using MFT, not to mention that MFT is often used with Resilience to make the vaults quicker.

it's anecdotal but I think a conversation I had with someone in vc kinda points toward most players playing as killer and complaining having not reached the level they thought they had reached.

I had MfT but wasn't quite aware I had it. We had a Huntress and she headed for me on shack - and I was happy, giggling like a little gremlin that she kept missing hatchets cause I could make it around the corner thanks to mft. Other person's very deadpan comment in that was : "Yes, but only because she doesn't know how to deal with shack as Huntress. If a Huntress or Wesker doesn't get a quick down at shack they simply don't know what they have to do..." I was like "nag, she just can't get her usual pokos hit at the corner". But they insisted that a Huntress who kniws what shes doing, doesn't need to rely on that in the first place. I took it as a challenge ... and a good chunk of Huntresses and Weskers were proving him right.

That being said, I do think MfT is too strong/has too much of an impact given how unconditional it is.

The only time it affects Huntress and Trickster is at loops, and you can't always guarantee you'll be at a loop. Hag just doesn't care about it. The 20% chase extension assumes the survivor already has a headstart. This doesn't apply to Hag's traps, since if you lunge straight off teleport you get the down.

It ultimately doesn't matter if you lose Bloodlust on power use, because if you used power it should be because you are hitting them or setting up a followup hit as a result of the power usage. (Also technically Demo is a fringe case where you can full charge Shreds for Mobility for an average 5.0m/s, but it costs your map awareness and you need a straight line along with very good timing. Poor timing just drops the average below 5.0m/s)

As far as pallets, you have to kick less than you'd expect. The Clown manifesto is a great resource to discover which pallets Clown can avoid kicking, or even basic M1 Killer avoid kick. Learning the theory, allows for understanding what conceptual pallets are less safe than one would think at a first glance, especially with a level or 2 of Bloodlust in the equation as well. Even some Gideon top floor edge map pallets that appear to be god pallets, can force a Survivor to double vault into a hit on a normal M1 Killer when played perfectly (with higher levels of Bloodlust making up for Killer imperfections in execution). Also, a Yellow Bottle is basically an on demand Bloodlust 2, so even just playing a Yellow bottle only Clown helps practice in that regard for all Killers.