Nerf playing with friends
I get that playing with your friens is super fun.
But on the killers side it quickly can become a nightmare.
Dead by Daylight already has a lot of information for survivors. (HUD) Perks and maps/keys can further enhance this. I think the amount of information a party of 4 talking via discord is way out of the range.
With discord teams perks like for example ko and hex: the third seal become completly useless. Teams can constantly call out where the killer is, which way he is heading, which pallets are dropped, where the generators are located, the position of totems, the position of chests, the position of the basement, invisible killers or calling out which way the killer is facing for the flash light safe. Further hex plaything becomes very useless as the targeted survivor can simply inform the others about the perk and they can look for the totems on different positions of the map at the same time.
Also survivor can callout positions for healing, bodyblocking who is running for the gate, which locker are you hiding in, which generator are you repairing and so on.
This is quite a lot of benefits for a team compared to playing with only 1 friend yet playing alone.
If you play killer in a "fair" (survivor rules) way (which is my intention most of the time) you will get no kill in the entire game with a discord team.
Instead of boosting solo queue players (which already happened when the hud started displaying survivor actions) I think its time to nerf the advantage of a discord team.
I am not entirely sure how to do that as most of my ideas are too drastic but it could start for example with giving them less time on the hook stages. As camping becomes impossible with the upcomming patch this would put more pressure on a team. Generators could need 10 % more time to repair, hooks longer to sabotage etc you get the idea.
Something needs to change however. Having a tactical strike team as killer just adds up frustration as you barely get anything out of the game.
I dont think playing solo queue and playing with 1 friend is anywhat comparable to full prepared strike team with a battle plan made before the game and having all builds in synergy.
Comments
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“As killer you immediately know when you play a SWF”
The amount of times I’ve had killers just assume we were all SWF in post game chat (entirely solo q), then deny deny deny the possibility of us being solo Q is insane. It’s such a fallback excuse… “I only lost because SWF”
SWF does not = good
SWF does not = comms
SWF does not always = better than solo q.
You cannot punish players for playing with friends. You cannot punish players for playing with friends. You cannot punish players for playing with friends.
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It all depends on the skill of the survivors and luck. I agree that playing with friends does not guarantee a win / escape but it still gives you a lot more valuable information. If you get good solo q survivors along with you, lucky you. However even a medium discord team of 4 will give the killer a really hard time.
I think punishing is the wrong word to use. I'd say balancing the game. Because that is all I was suggesting. The value you can get out of playing with friends outweighs all perks and a lot of killer skill too. Maybe absolute pros do not care but for the rest of us a discord team is brutal to deal with most of the time
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What game out there punish people for playing with their friends answer QUICKLY
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I kind of agree in this point but the discussion is about the extreme side of survivor teams. I dont know how to change that to make it more balanced but teams have advantages that solo q players dont have. Also the killer can have a lot harder time to deal with them. I am not really considering nerfing everyone who plays with a friend all together. But its a fact that these kind of strike teams with pre made battle plans exist and it can be really frustating
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I dont think you can compare twitch streamer which have an audience to entertain and comments to read to the topic I am talking about
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Just look on Twitch at regular killer players . You'll quickly see they usually aren't that great.
If this doesn't seem to be the case, then it means that the current killers are all experts and don't use the privilege of being beginners to claim preferential treatment for additional base kits.
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True. Why I play with my friend(s) we usually talk about upcoming updates or stuff that happens in the world or during one of our lectures. We make jokes, laugh and just spend time together.
Yes we also tell each other which perks the killer has or where he goes but we also tell each other what the others are doing.
And I can't remember the times when we were 3 people that the random dude 3gen'ed us and lost us the match because they did not think through.
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This is fair.
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There may be a language barrier, but this is a great reference material.
The purpose of the video is ``survivors incite before balance, so killers don't increase,'' but it's also a good example of how much SWF is causing the collapse of matches.
Survivor is certainly good at this match, but Killer is in the top class and has several levels of skill above them.
Even so, this is an example of how the killer side ends up unable to win no matter what.
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I think you're mainly talking about elite veteran surv teams that have been playing together for a long time and are all very good at the game.
The amount of these teams in the game is so very very small compared to the playerbase as a whole. If you are truly getting swat team after swat team comp level nightmare teams then you yourself are in that mystical "high MMR" area, where nothing is really balanced anyway. And if so, you too are in that very very small percentage as well.
There's no way for the game to even know who's on comms or not, and the devs have said that outside the highest levels the surv escape rates weren't all that different from mostly solos overall.
Good game sense and your build matters more than who you're facing. Unless rng completely borks you over, and in that case we all get that from time to time. 🤪
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GAG!
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I have honestly no idea whats exactly happening as I can just talk about my experience. I started to check on the profiles of the survivors before the match starts a while ago and lately I saw a lot of people being from the same country having a rougly equally amount of hours in dbd. That leads me to think they play together though its no absolute proof.
As every killer has its own mmr score I can tell you that in 6 out of 10 games with blight I had survivors from the same country with summed up 10 k - 12 k hours in dbd. Once even met people with 10 k each. This doesn't happen with clown for example though I have won every game since I got him (maybe because Im simply better at him idk) but it also started to happen with huntress and nurse after a while. I know that your mmr gets higher when winning so it makes sense you get better survivors after time but it didnt felt like a steady rise more like abruptly batteling greek gods after just playing in the backyard. It simply wasnt adding up to me as the skill gap was all of sudden significant.
I do not claim to be a top tier god killer but I know that I am not that bad. Thats why I was getting pretty concerned after loosing 25 games in a row (using the killers I talked about above) but then kept winning when using killers I haven't played that often.
My conclusion was that either it all is a coincidence and I reached my peak at these killers and rng and mmr just gave me bad 2 weeks or these survivors who all were from the same country actually were playing as a team and annihilated me.
That beeing said I do not care loosing a match. Heck I often let the last one go but getting destroyed that hard in a row makes you question your skills. I know it sounds like I'm making a fuzz about not being able to slaughter beginners anymore but I can reassure you, that this is not the case. The survivors I faced in the last 10 day were not just strong, they were simply insane. Absolutely nothing worked and started to question how I ever won a match.
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First you need to feel safe.
Some people compare the killer plays of some top players and say, ``Killers can win normally, it's a matter of skill.''
In fact, top players themselves admit that we live in an era where you can't win with the M1 Killer.
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I haven't a clue how to go around seeing people's countries or hours like that. Maybe because I'm on Xbox?
There's also another thing to consider: with many casual players bleeding off into other games there may be (at higher levels) less matchmaking with those casuals. So veterans are getting veterans more often then before maybe?
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First of all full on 4 men teams are quite a rarity, the vast majority of swf are 2 men only, I think the majority of players are still playing solo, at least I think that was the case when BHVR released stats on that. Then again most people playing together with coms really don't go full on seal team six, when I played with 3 other guys over discord we had two complete noobs with us and were not really making calls... You loose to good players, you don't loose to swf, if those guys go down in 20 seconds you are still winning, the problem only comes when you play against good players. It is as simple as that.
As for your examples:
- knockout and thirds seal are bad perks anyway, so you are already at a disadvantage for using them, but then again they are really unfun to go against so that's fine, nobody wants to get slugged for 2 minutes because their teammates cannot see there aura
- To know which pallets are used people are bringing windows of opportunity a lot these days, so even this advantage is neglectable, also when i used to play in swf not once have we called out such things, maybe shack pallet but that's it so I don't think it is that drastic overall either
- The callouts to positions is something I don't really get, Gens are rather easy to spot, unless you are on an indoor map, I have not once heard people call out totems unless in chase and it was ruin or something like that, but usually for totems the rule still is "if it glows it goes", why would you call out chests? You are already wasting time when you do them :D And basement has like 2 possible spawn, so you gonna figure that out rather quick, why would you call it out? :D
- Hex plaything is the best thing if people cleanse it, because either they waste a lot of time doing four totems, so time they are not doing gens or you have pentimento and they just played in your cards, which is why most people don't even cleanse it, so this does not change with swf whatsoever (also isnt plaything blocked for other survivors to do your totem for some time?)
- Calling out the angle for flashlight saves??? My man which killer just stands there for seconds for you to call it out and does not spin like a maniac so the flashlight user has no clue where to go...
Some of them might occure but won't with most chill Swf and others are just completely off.
If you punish people for playing with friends you will reduce the playerbase, that's just what it is... If however push soloq to the level of swf and then just buff killers accordingly it's all fine.
The issue is that such swf you described that go for clock callouts and what not those full on seal team 6 with 10 k hours each just soooooo rare, you will maybe encounter them once every 100 games or something ridiculously low like that... And even then those games last like 3-5 minutes, that is the best outcome for you, they'll do all the gens and you can go next as quickly as possible. But in 99% of cases the survivors you will go against are just average and can be beaten rather easily.
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I win with m1 all the time. So do many players. What “top player” is saying you can’t win with m1 in pub matches?
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I think Hens and Knightlight and so on even did a challenge to play m1 only without using any powers and won 90% of the games they played...
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The community is very reluctant to discuss changes of any type to this system and determined to understate the advantages a SWF provides.
That's okay, if you play the game for a month, you're basically ensured to start forming your own SWF via the in game friends feature. And just using that, you'll be able to see the advantages for yourself, even if people with thousands of hours take those advantages for granted.
This is a lot of what makes survivor enjoyable on various levels, you really can't regulate it, or as you said "nerf" it. Its required for the game to keep being available.
But, as others indicated you can learn to play around it, use it sometimes to your advantage, or as I said, maybe try it out yourself?
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While I get what you're saying, and it's mostly accurate, social interaction is important in most multiplayer games. I'd imagine DBD would have probably died off a long time ago if you couldn't group up with friends. I'd argue it was smart to have the devs allow it. That being that, I am very unhappy with how much power survivors have where the killers are expected to bend over for them on a regular basis, especially with howbthe devs are starting to make following the survivor rulebook mandatory for killers.
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Well first of
a, killer was definitely not as experienced in this case as were the survivors. It was classical windstorm wraith that just tries to block windows/pallets and that's the main gist. Survivors were trying to mindgame and were actually lucky quite a lot of times (I would say they got about 80% of 50/50 right which means they were pretty much in killer's head).
b, the game took long. 13 whole minutes. Also survivors were chasing a lot of time next to someone who was going for heals. They did help each other, but they did nothing spectacular that needs SWF. I have seen better solo players and I would absolutely not say with straight face that they were SWF (it's fully possible, but they 100% didn't need to be). What I know is, that they 100% were not a "swat team" just by the fact that they chased in a wrong places (going next to teammates that were healing or going where there are generators nearby).
c, killer basically cleaned up whole map. Every pallet dropped was pallet that got destroyed. Even one that got chem trap on it (which was SUPER visible). A better killer would try to mind game these loops - which brings us to next point
d, killer barely even mindgamed anything a little bit more advanced. Sure, there were basic things. It's clear that we are not talking about brand new player with 50 hours, but all these mindgames were very linear and predictable (no hiding of red light, no messing with timing around loops, no double/tripple backs - everything could have been directly read by red light alone).
e, but killer wasn't bad either. He chose his chases. He was willing to slug for a short time and he tried to spread the pressure. Macro play wasn't really terrible. Also start of the match was very very much in favor of killer. Then suddenly a bad (and stubborn - if you can't catch someone for this long, then forget him) chase erased everything that happened until that point (where end game just cemented everything that happened mid-game).
Overall it wasn't bad match. Considering killer was wraith with totem build and no slowdown + considering skill level on both sides, the game looked just about right. To be frank the only surprising thing in whole match was the very strong beginning for killer. Survivors also took good perk builds, but nothing OP. It's just standard self-care botany with WoO. Nothing crazy.
An example of much better wraith player (with said mindgames directly demonstrated in video) - is for example this one with Scott:
Just ignore first 30s as that is really cringe part. But the rest is nice presentation how to play it even on a map like Borgo.
But you can see also how Otzdarva plays him (if/when he plays him as he's a generalist and absolutely does not specialize in wraith - but he knows looping basics really well and can force survivors to be way off by little tricks he does on basic M1 killers - and wraith is basic M1 killer on steroids in chase).
I am pretty sure you can find even better examples with somebody who mains just and only wraith and nobody else.
Hope this helps.
Also the video that @Archol123 mentioned above is this one:
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Already watched it.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that he has experience winning a world championship :）
If you can say that having him doesn't help because there are better players, then someone should try to win.
I might add that he wasn't serious at first.
At this time, perks were a totem concept for him, so he was just trying to enjoy them.
However, that was a minor problem, and in one scene of this live broadcast, everyone including himself agreed, ``There are limits to how much you can win against SWF with the M1 Killer.''
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You do realize thought that winning 90+% with purely m1 without using the killers power basically means it is fairly possible to do so on most killers if you use the killers powers? And if you can't it is basically a skill issue and you just need to get better? I mean you could see how he outplayed tiles, maybe just learn something from it instead of complaining...
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If he won, he most definitely don't use M1 killers, because he does not know how to basic loop (to highest level).
I am not saying the person can't be cracked nurse or insane blight or unbreatable spirit, but from the video you provided it's pretty clear he didn't master basic M1 killers.
I even specified where are his biggest gaps and provided video of person that showcases how to fill those gaps. Check my post again - you will see the huge skill diff between those 2 killers. (Also just because someone is strong on 1 killer, it does not mean he's strong on all killers)
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Fun fact: the last time I was in a 3man the random had Deja Vu and almost 3genned us. On Saloon.....
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I don't think anyone wants to cancel playing with friends alltogether. The original intention was to balance the level of information a team gains (or most likely gains) compared to what the killer can do (as he is just one person) to have equal opportunites.
I appreciate the change that you no longer can facecamp except for the endgame. However I whish the same rules would be applied to toxic survivors.
After a 9 to 5 people want to have some fun and not getting frustrated, facecamped or tbagged. This week I got the chance to play early morning and late evening. The difference is out of the galaxy. Early morning most matches people have fun, sometimes do some funny jokes with the killers/survivors (like playing bartender killer at dead dawg saloon). Evening matches where a lot more 'sweaty' lots of bad behaviour from both sides and barely fun or even good matches.
As I play both sides equally I came to the conclusion, that the killer is at the overall disadvantage if he plays 'fair' or is up against coordinated survivors. (Let's leave aside whether they play as a team or not for a moment).
I don't want to become someone who tunnels someone out early at the game (which is something I've seen a lot lately) to have an easy win. But getting outplayed that hard and tbagged on top will eventually lead everyone to the 'dark side'.
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As you are kind of right here, where do you draw the line?
What is the line where it's considered a 'skill issue' or something basically not possible to do? I think it's really easy to say 'get better' but is it that easy?
If you know how to loop tiles, know your mindgames, have map knowledge, some strategy, a build suiting you and know the abilites/tricks of the killer there is not much left you can do. It then comes down to survivor mistakes or rng. Which gets reduced drastically when playing in a team.
I think that's what @xltechno is on about.
Personally I think there are limits how 'good' you can get with some killers (depending on the way you think probably). I don't really intend to spend hundreds of hours discovering which wall or tree on map is slippy or not (when playing blight) and I don't think it should be necessary except when you want to win a championship or something. Most of us just want to play the game and not getting completly destroyed, tbagged and then getting told to just get better.
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As I stated before it is possible, considering some streamers did it with m1 only no killer power and so on with 90% + winrate... So the whole point about Blight colliding and so on can be disregarded...
I mean as for the get better, obviously there is still stuff you can do and improve on, otherwise those guys wouldn't manage to do what they did... And you even have it easier than those guys because you can use the killers power. So yes it is a skill issue, matchmaking doesn't give you decent survivors that often, and those you face regularly can be beaten fairly easily.
To improve watch guides, play 1v1s and so on it is not that hard to do, it just takes much time and practise.
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he makes a feint when chasing in a hut, if the survivor takes safety measures and moves so that he won't get hit unless he makes a mistake, if the other person shares pallets information and follows each other.
If you are not aware that it exists, I have nothing to say to you.
But, most of the feints were aimed at an upside, and half of them were his blunders as he took a gamble.
As I've said many times before, this is what happens when a killer tries to play for fun.
If we had built the park configuration from the beginning with the intention of winning seriously, this situation would not have arisen.
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I said in another thread I think, that TCM has a simple feature that let's people see who is in a group together. This could help people be aware of it.
You won't know if their on voice chat, but you can at least see them grouped up.
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I disagree on this one. Streamers are never a good reference as you don't know what they did in preparation of the stream/game. Some of them simply create new accounts, some loose games on intention to drop the mmr so they look better on stream. I don't say it's impossible to win with just M1 but without statistics there is not much to prove here.
I agree that you can almost always learn something new from others. I don't know how your game looks on a daily basis but on my half 8/10 games the survivors are very decent. Looping very tight, to maximum efficiency, faking actions, leading a chase away from generators or survivors, saving pallets, splitting gen pressure.
Very few games survivors are 'easy to beat'. But that may be to mmr, rng and different geographical position. Too many variables to exactly pin something down.
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SWF is a huge draw for DBD. This is a harsh, difficult game. Killers play to be the boss in a boss-fight, survivors have to want to be victims, that doesn't sound as awesome. Horror with friends is fun, even if you're suffering and having a terrible game, a group can laugh at and with each other and have a great time while getting stomped. I don't play survivor and it's always annoyed me that SWFs call out and undermine my stealth, but SWFs are the fuel that keeps this game going. Friends that want to fight/run/troll the killer will always be a fresh source.
Killers can't carry the game, financially. I play most the killers and I spend way too much on cosmetics, but four survivors will probably spend more, at least in the short term. I need them to keep buying, auric cells feed the Entity.
You just gotta learn to adjust your game to your opponent. SWFs are too altruistic, they'll go for the unhook even when there's clearly not enough time left. They'll come to each other's defense despite it being hopeless. They generally work as a team, with specialties, take out the gen-jockeys, the game come to a crawl. Take out the runners, the jockeys are as good as dead. If everyone's only good at the same thing, they're a weak team.
Like SWF bullies, don't even come to win, they play for hatch. They hope to make the killer angry, play into it and you get a 3 or 4k every time. "Yes, you made me angry, now I'm going to kill your whole team under this hook. Reeee, I'm so enraged, I hate getting all the points."
DBD is like poker, you're not playing against the hand, you're playing against the player. Solos are wild cards, the best and worst players in the game. SWFs have a big advantage when it comes to working together, you have to interfere with that, just like you interfere with healing or doing gens.
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You are deliberately trying to ignore what we wrote to you. We posted you video where several (insane) killers took trapper (without ever using his M2. Ever) with conditions of not using any addon, not camp, not tunnel and not slug. They still got 90%+ win rate (3+ kills per game). How can you still be going on about something that "playing as M1 killer makes it impossible to win"? What more proof do you want?
And again. Compare your Japanese streamer how he plays his killer vs the video I provided with Scott. And Scott is like very very good killer, but he's still not as good as Hens (the one from no-power trapper video) or some other competitive streamers (like say Knightlight). There's night and day. I am 100% sure Scott would have won in that lobby - and as I said he's not even one of the very best. That guy just doesn't know how to fully utilize M1 killers. So when he gets insane survivors (these were not even insane - they were only very good) - then of course he doesn't stand a chance.
You want to balance killers so that they will win even against better survivors? Why? To drop survivor player base? What's the purpose?
Do you think Hens would do that? Like I think there are a few killers where you can be pretty sure they don't bother doing that (because they actually like more challenge). Another example would be Otz - pretty sure he never deranks on purpose.
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I mean you can see the devotion level and therefore know if they played inbetween, so this claim is fairly easy to check...
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Last time i played with friends almost every game was a 4 man escape an if we got certain killers or certain maps we knew they had no chance of winning an was becoming quite boring. I certainly wouldn't complain about some changes but im not sure its to do with swf but its the level of players i have seen some terrible swfs an some very strong solo que groups so i don't know how it would work
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