STOP GENRUSH!!! Enough of favoring the role of survs!!
Play the role of the killer is quite stressful, especially when you consider that within the first 50 seconds of the match, survivors can easily complete 2 generators, or at the very least, they are likely to finish one generator while having another an advanced. This is exacerbated by the fact that most maps are so bigger that efficient map control becomes nearly impossible. It's truly disheartening to observe how BHVR (Behaviour Interactive) significantly favors the survivor gameplay. Approximately 80% of survivors coordinate through external communication programs in pre-made groups, rendering the killer's role somewhat of a mockery. Playing as the killer becomes excessively stressful, and it's disappointing to see how they undermine the gaming experience for killers.
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Killer could use a friend that would make it lot let stressful. Hopefully in future we get 2vs4 mode things will be finally fair and not stressful for killer. 1vs4 is never going to be fair you just don't stand a chance agains't that big number advantage when everything is equal.
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Prepare to be lambasted for a reasonable take. These forums are a Survivor echo chamber. Welcome.
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You need to see Dead by Daylight at 2017-2019 look like
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Doing gens is survivors' only objective except for altruistic interactions when needed. I can't really shame people for doing what the game is telling them to do and their only objective. This behavior only creates a toxic environment because it's essentially not the survivor's fault. They should be doing gens, if they aren't doing gens they're being inefficient. I wouldn't want a survivor whose priority isn't gens on my team, would you? Why would they walk around aimlessly when I'm being chased? Does the Killer ever stop chasing survivors? No. He doesn't have a reason to do so. Then why should survivors ever stop doing gens. What else are they going to do? There are so many questions LOL. Survivors had other stuff to do a while ago like boons but most of them are trash now so back to gens. Medkits were nerfed so people rather stay injured now back to gens. They don't have anything else to do that progresses the game.
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Killing is the killers only objective. Yet, when the killer does his only objective as efficient as possible, since there are no other objectives, its considered kinda toxic from the community.
Funny how that goes, isn´t it?
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Made-up rules by both sides.
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Playing efficient is simply not fun for the other side and our community is extremely competitive. While the devs still consider it a party game.
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With the Objectives being so generalized... Gens V Kills
And with MMR being what it is... Escapes V Kills
It's more like both sides yelling at one another to stop doing the Objectives so fast... Genrushing V Camping and Tunneling
BHVR needs to add more Side Objectives and MMR being added to
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I mean most times that killers tunnel and camp is purely out of spite. Hardcore tunneling some one out of the game is far from efficient, same goes for camping.
These 2 things are very effective when applicable and most of the time people dont really complain about it when used in the proper way. I myself play to win, how ever I never say to myself: "oh wow they got 3 gens done already? i need to tunnel one of them out asap" as thats just gonna guarantee my loss further unless the team Im up against throws the game
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Tunneling or camping is often times not the most efficient choice because it tends to leave 3 other people doing gens, so it is not really the same.
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What is this made up number of 80% of survivors using coms? Not even 80% of survivor players are in swf, I think the latest stats they released were around 40-50% solo q.
Besides that yes obviously bigger maps are terrible for killers without map mobility, not really a shocker though, we know this for several years now. You can still do fine in 90+ % of matches if you are either good at the game or pick a rather strong killer and are somehwat decent since matchmaking does not work properly.
Also as for the title, it is their only objective? what else are they supposed to do? They are supposed to sit on gens and the killer is supposed to stop them... It is rather simple. Besides that people have been asking for different objectives for quite some while now, but it didn't happen yet and I don't have much hope it will happen in the near future...
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I agree that killer can be much more stressful then playing survivor.
Everything else you wrote i dont think is true at all. Killer have it relatively easy compared to the past, genrush is not nearly such a big deal as it used to be. Sure, a strong coordinated team will wipe the floor with your chill Michael Myers game from time to time, but faceing the reality, most games you are playing is no big deal. And if it is, dont worry, MMR will help you out.
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The problem with that though?
Every single time something comes out, that forces survivors to NOT do gens, they whine and complain until that thing gets nerfed (usually takes like a year, but they still complain about it constantly):
I.E.
- Old ruin actually being usable
- The new "All hex build" with plaything/pentimento/devour/haunted ground (not yet nerfed but look around you'll see threads complaining about plaything)
- Sadako (not yet nerfed, but everyone still complains constantly about her)
- Skull merchant, forcing survivors to not gen rush for fear of that 3gen (watch some tru3ta1ent videos of him destroying 3-gen SM as a survivor)
- Pinhead box, constant complaining that the box is "too hard to deal with"
- Wesker, constant complaining about having to cleanse his power after being unhooked.
- Pre-nerf freddy, constant complaining about his teleport.
Basically anything that forces a survivor to not just tunnel a gen until they hear a heartbeat is complained about until it is eventually nerfed.
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I don't remember the exact number but it was very low for how many people are playing in a 4 man SWF. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-4% of survivors last time they released stats on this type of thing. Probably a similar number in 3 man SWF. People who claim they're going against comp SWFs every game are just coping with how bad they are at the game. There's no accountability at all from some players. No one looks for ways they could improve. They just immediately start making excuses about how it must have been a SWF. The logic of whining about SWFs doesn't make sense at all anyway. People claim it's impossible to win as killer. If that's true then how did you reach this "high MMR" where you only get matched with sweaty SWFs? Game must not be as hard as people say it is if you reached this point to begin with. If people lost as much as they say then they would be in low MMR going against potatoes more often than not.
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Im ngl chief the amount of posts of everything you listed here is close to none, except for 3 gen Merchant which is justified.
Also saying that Survivor crying only gets things nerfed is straight up ignorant as there are plenty of examples of Survivor things nerfed because of killers complaining. Prove Thyself probably being the best example
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When sadako was reworked there were constant threads about it. But her play rate has gone down so you don't see it much.
There was literally a thread yesterday complaining about plaything.
Before alien there were multiple threads about wesker.
Prove thyself was a victim of "it gets used a lot so we nerfed it"
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There are constant threads about basically everything thats new if it even has a hint of being strong. Reworked Lucky Break, Resurgence, Fogwise, Blood Rush, and many more.
A single thread complaining about something every week is not enough to be "complained about". If thats the case I could make a post claiming Trapper is OP and itd have the same weight.
Alien was complained about because of a bug that made him even more unfun to go against, Wesker was the opposite where he was basically seen every game which can make things feel stale. Just like how people complain about perks that are seen way too much
Prove Thyself had multiple threads every week complaining about it before the nerf, it wasnt just "it gets used alot"
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Well, the generators wouldn't be rushed if they didn't change healing. Now that survivors are no longer afraid to do a generator while injured, they will be done faster. Survivors used to either run to where CoH was to spend time healing, or use a med kit to go somewhere safe and heal. Now, there is none of that, so they simply hop on a generator and do it while injured.
If a killer cannot apply pressure on generators, know when to drop chase, etc, then of course generators are going to be going off faster.
Main point is, survivors are no longer afraid to touch a gen while injured, they used to refuse to do them unless healed.
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You are still missing the point.
The point i am making is, take a poll of killer survivors LIKE going against. And you'll find that the list of them, are basically the ones that can't force survivors off gens in one way or another outside of natural "m1" hits. How many "trapper OP threads" do you see vs say "wraith OP" threads neither of which really deserves one. But you get my point.
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This is why what i'd like to see them do is rework healing (again) and give some disincentive other than (you go down quicker) to survivors who are injured. For example (not saying they SHOULD do this, but just for example) i know a while back before all the healing nerfs and before the CoB/Eruption/OC meta, someone ran a few scrim matches against a survivor team where the rule was "you can't work on gens while injured" and it created some interesting matches.
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Those complaints were mainly because it was poor design and still is to an extent. Reason why its not as bad nowadays is the HUD update that provides information. Something that punishes Solo Q while having little to no effect to SWF will of course be complained about. Pinhead is a great example of this, SWF's can deal with the box quite easily as 1 of them can make a simple call out. Solo Q on the otherhand is a different story as seeing no icon next to some one can mean many different things.
An example of something that gets people off gens but affects SWF just as much as Solo Q is actually Sadako, who wasnt complained for that reason but for other reasons. Many thought her Condemned was overtuned but thats because they didnt know how to play against her, which is why you barely see any complaints about her nowadays.
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Yeah it made Legion a really strong killer for example xD I think Otzdarva once participated in such a tournament with that rule.
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But you could have done gens injured before? I don't really get your point? In what sense should they be less afraid to be injured now? Alao you can still heal yourself with a medkit or self care or whatever, It just takes longer? You already could do gens injured before, so the healing change did not create this...
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Well, those games where as a survivor you do nothing but press M1 and move to the next generator are quite common. The killer is struggling with the other survivors, but it still counts as your victory. And for many players those are the only victories they achieve. It's one of the reasons why I prefer to play as a killer, survivor games can get really monotonous, I don't understand how anyone can have any fun like that.
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No, not with the number of close games that have been lost because it snowballed into the killer's favor after someone "stopped doing gens". Literally, you stop doing gens and that's almost a guarantee that no one will make it out alive. There isn't time to be goofing off in a trial. If you aren't doing gens, or running the killer then what are you doing that's a useful contribution to the team?
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You should expect the majority of generator progress to take place at the start of a match because that's the only time it can. Losing 2 or even 3 gens before a hook is not a death sentence like many think.
Once you have a survivor on Hook, if you are decent you will realistically limit the number of survivors working on gens to 1.
1 on hook, 1 in chase, one going for hook/healing, and 1 on a gen. If you are capable enough to gets downs are a decent pace, doing so creates immense pressure. Because of this the start of the match is a lot easier for survivors to get gens done because it's the strongest time to do it.
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That's my experience too. As a solo survivor main, I'd love to meet these people who get gens done. More often than not, games are over with multiple gens to go. I just last week came off a 20 game death streak, and it was only broken because the killer dropped me at hatch. People are free to "skill issue" me, that's fine, perhaps that's the case. But it goes both ways.
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I think survivor is too easy and killer is too stressful. Most of my games on both roles 5 gens get done. Whether I get 3 or 4 kills or I escape or not. I would love to see what the avg gens per game stat is for the last 3 months or so. It has to be 4.0 or higher. I also think that survivors skill wise have gotten a lot better. It is hard for me to end chases quickly. Maps have busted setups that make avg chases so much harder. There are too many points of safety that I don't think some survivors know how to loop well. Some can but most just go from pallet - vault - strong tile - pallet etc.
This game needs to get some balance changes but there is too much RNG involved that I think it is near impossible for this game to ever be balanced. This game is getting boring. Even the halloween event coming up won't fix it.
I think we need to get a new game mode that will change how the game is played but still give us the opportunity to gain points and upgrade characters. The current state is too stale to have any fun right now.
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Usually the complaining happens are from a defeat after 20 win streak.
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Yeah, like, i think it would be interesting to see what would happen if, for example, they made healing take 16 seconds, but self-care was basekit (and allowed 100% healing speed, so it only took 16 seconds) but then you couldn't do gens while injured, or something. Again i'm sure numbers and such would have to be tweaked, but i think these are the kinds of crazy ideas i think we should be testing on PTB. Sure 90% of them won't work, but you might come across something pretty interesting and actually meta changing.
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Killer is simultaneously more and less stressful. You have all the burden of success and failure on your shoulders, but you also can't be dragged down by that mother freaking Mikaela who waited till 61s on hook to rescue, or the Feng who burnt all the pallets early.
Gen count is important not to think of in terms of individually, but collectively. Think of any game where you have an HP bar. You can play at full effectiveness at 100% HP and 1% HP. Now swap that over to gens. You are still in the game as long as you have 1 gen, or 1HP. Also just like a fighting game, many times you suffer 'chip damage', when you play correctly, and block the opponent. So if it helps the mindset view losing the first 4 gens as nothing but 'chip damage'.
Map sizes I can understand. Just the other day I played Oni on Mother's Dwelling, and despite the power, it took me too long to traverse the map to get the blood needed. (I also relied too heavily on Scourge hooks [3/4 of my perks] and it didn't help that most of the action took place on the hard opposite side of the map of all 4 of them.) The key to making larger maps 'playable' is cutting up the map. Coal Tower (generally regarded favorably to most Killers in terms of size) is 8,448 Sq/M. Ignoring 2 gens from the onset can cut ~28% (2/7 gens) of the map out, and putting that on the largest map (Mother's Dwelling), you get a map of ~8595 Sq/M, or roughly a Coal Tower. This can be done to even greater extremes on maps like Azarov's Resting Place, cutting out nearly half the map from 11,264 Sq/M to 5,632 Sq/M. Since I do that, it makes most maps much more playable. Remember, you have to combine this with the above paragraph, you only need 1 gen to win, the rest are 'chip damage'.
As far as 80% of Survs being SWF, that is grossly inaccurate. The last stats (that I recall) they gave showed soloq sitting at slightly above 60%, so that would leave 40% max of players being any degree of SWF (which is vastly different matches being against 1/1/2, 1/3, 2/2, and 4 as each combination of SWF possibilities). That 40% is half your estimate. It is also important to weaponize your opponent's tools against them. Just as you can force a Sprint Burst to waste a Survivors time, you can get them to say the wrong thing to each other over comms. All too many times when playing with friends, they say something like "he dropped me", only to get downed seconds later. Make the Survivors you suspect of being a SWF give false callouts to one another, and you will get easier downs as a result.
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So 3 gen skull merchant is ok because the biggest whiner (seriously out of all the players you picked him🤣) beat it. Got it. Also killers complain all the time about perks that lead them to getting nerfed. Just look at made for this for example. How many threads are there about that perk?
Post edited by EmmaFrostyEyes on2 -
Like that clown main that threw a tantrum after his 300 game win streak was broken by a tie lol
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2 vs 4 wouldn't work in the current state of things, but a 2 vs 6 would certainly be interesting.
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what???
EDIT: Only possible thing I can think of is you either meant to reply to some one else or HEAVILY misinterpreted what I was saying because the biggest whiner is quite possibly one of my least favorite content creators
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Why would it be out of spite? Killer is doing his only objective.
Just like survivors that only do gens. Or would you say that they do it out of spite?
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Because tunneling and camping aren't always the most efficient options.
Just like how sticking on gens isn't always the best choice either.
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But that creates problems of choice because you cannot choose to stay injured and do gens anymore and it robs you of the choice to cleanse or nor cleanse VS plague and so on... So I'm not really in favor of that mode...
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They quoted the wrong post. Pretty sure they meant to quote this post instead.
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So neither is done out of spite, yes?
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I mean... some of those are problematic though... When a Wesker wants to tunnel you while you are infected you basically don't have time to use a spray so you are much more likely to go down soon again, it is not about the cleansing itself, but that the infectious starts to increase again maybe without time for you to get rid of it...
As for skull merchant, tru3ta1ent might not be the best example, I mean even Team Eternal took quite some time to break the 3 gen in the showmatch and it was almost a 1 hour long match, all while being a comp team with coms and arguably the best dbd players around. Therefore it obviously is not as easy as you apparently try to make it seem. Also in those cases it does not really matter if you only do gens or not because the skull merchant decides on which gens to protect from the start...
As for freddy, how did his teleport even get changed? All people complained about was that his addons dragged out the game for quite some time, at least as far as i know.
I agree that Pinhead and Sadako are not really problematic. All you have to do about Sadako is grab a tape and be fine, and for Pinhead I don't really think it is too hard to look at the interface if someone else is going for the box and if they are all on gens or in chase just go for it yourself, despite maybe being on a generator, sure it would be nice to have something like a chatline that says "going for box/killer specific objective" or whatever, but even without that it is fairly easy to deal with.
The problem with old ruin was not ruin itself, but the combination with old undying that made you cleanse up to 5 totems if you got unlucky... That thing was really annoying, apparently the most efficient thing in that meta was to just ignore totems alltogether or find both lit totems before cleansing anything. Which is somewhat hard to do without communication.
Boons were also something survivors could do besides gens, and happily did I would say ^^ But yeah first COH and stacking of healing was ridiculous. They should just find a way for side objectives that maybe give you small bonuses if you do them, or special items... I don't know like do this 30 second thing and gain something out of it...
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That was a really cool analogy! It's never over till it's over in DbD, there's always a chance to make a comeback. You never know. Someone makes the tiniest mistake and the tables turn.
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Can you give any objective reasoning here rather than killer is stressful and discord is op?
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Preach!
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Yeah I've often found that the speed the first 2-3 gens are done is fairly inconsequential.
I've had a lot of games where the first few gens pop fast, but then survivors are constantly playing catch up because they left that first hook rescue too late and now I've got momentum and they can't keep up with the heals.
Direct pressure, in the form of downing and hooking survivors fast enough, and being physically present at a gen, is always far more impactful than any slowdown perks or gen speed nerfs.
I do think something needs to be done about commodious toolboxes though. For one it doesn't make sense for a green to be better than a purple. But also, the existence of multiple stacking layers of a given mechanic is what makes high coordination from SWF so much more impactful. Coordination + gen perks + toolboxes is exponentially more efficient. So a gentle toolbox nerf (or a rework entirely but that's another topic) would go a long way.
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It feels rushed from the killer perspective. It's a complete crapshoot from the survivor perspective depending on who you get teamed up with.
The game just needs more. That's all. More objectives or another gen but each time something is added a counterbalance is needed so the killer or survivor side isn't to disadvantaged.
This 5 gen 4v1 is stale.
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Bruh my bad I replied to the wrong person💀💀 god damn it
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Yeah….im stupid💀
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"To earn the right to play survivor three times, you are obligated to play killer once."
Just incorporating this into the treaty would solve almost all problems.
The management will never do that, and it will never happen because of the refusal of those who don't do killers for whatever reason.
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That's not analogous though.
Venusa is talking about survivors doing gens -at all-. You're talking about doing the only objective -as efficient as possible-.
What you're talking about is the equivalent of packing hyperfocus + Stakeout + BNPs/toolboxes and whatever else can be used to make gens go as fast as possible.
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