Skill issue? Can’t be camped or tunneled without going down
For tunneling to be successful you must take at least one or sometimes 2 hits after the unhook. Where are the calls for Survivors to improve their map and knowledge, situational awareness, looping ability, and stealth skills?
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“Camping/tunneling? Lol just don’t get hit bro.” - Professor Dunwich, DBD Forums, 2023
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Going down is inevitable. The entire game is built around that.
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Generally speaking, the anti-tunnel in the game is geared around making sure survivors do have the agency to utilise their skill to avoid going down. That's why the protection is there after a hook and is typically on a timer, for example. The problem is often that the tools are weak enough that they can't utilise those things as effectively as they should, or have other big flaws damaging their effectiveness.
Take the basekit protection being Endurance. Being hit during that ten second timer means that you're in Deep Wounds, which means you can't really use anything else based around Endurance to make distance and reach a tile. This can be a problem when a fair few sources of anti-tunnel (and even some tools that aren't anti-tunnel but might help here, like Dead Hard) also use Endurance and are now unusable.
So, we can see that anyone asking for the basekit protection to be changed to no longer use Endurance would be an example of calling for changes to tunnelling that are based around survivors using their skill to evade tunnelling. There are other examples too, a lot of more level-headed calls here come from people who want survivors to be able to consistently use their skill when they're being tunnelled.
In addition, there's a genuine argument to be had about whether it's fair to place all the skill expression burden on the person being tunnelled. It doesn't exactly take huge skill on the killer's side, after all, so it often takes more skill to counter than it does to perform. There's an honest discussion to be had about whether that's fair or not.
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Survivor has to fail multiple times before being hooked; failed to hide, failed to escape chase before injury, and failed to escape chase before being downed.
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So when I run a killer for 5 gens is it a skill issue on them for overcommitting or some excuse like perks or pallets?
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5 Gens chase should be the standard skill for average solo.
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Not remotely close to what I said, but enjoy your echo chamber upvotes.
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It is kind of basically what you said, unless I'm misunderstanding your point.
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I think you could have worded it better but i 100% agree. The average skill level of the casual surv playerbase is honestly embarrassing lmao. I see people with thousands of hours not looking behind them and getting 2 tapped by wraith. A lot of the 'issues' with playing surv, even issues w solo q, could be solved if players just got better
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We've cycled back to the 2018 arguments.
"Don't want to be mori'd after a single hook? Just don't go down 4head."
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It's easier to blame the opponent when things go wrong.
What people typically call getting tunneled is just being chased again, whatever they did to fail to escape from chase the first time they then did a second time. That's all.
Just as splitting up to smash out gens makes perfect sense targeting a weak link in the team and eliminating them early makes perfect sense.
It's an elimination game and sometimes you get caught out and eliminated early. People really struggle to understand and accept that.
There are a lot of games with early elimination but I don't think I've ever seen people go on about it the same way the DBD community does.
Does the horror genre just attract people whom can't play nice with others? And by that I mean people who can't take loss like an adult?
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the forums are evolving, just backwards
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youre not that guy pal
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how do u stealth 'skill' getting chased right off of the hook.... ?
you're already at a disadvantage with -1 health state, any non bot killer is just gonna wait out the endurance and you're going to take the hit at one point or another, the entire game is predicated on that
expecting the average solo queuer to loop 5 gens after first hook is a stupid expectation to have
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I took a break from the forums, and what a shock, you're still complaining about survivors. Except now your profile is private so nobody can see just how much you complain.
You keep saying that survivors like their echo chambers, but you do nothing but create threads so you can whinge. Anytime you get challenged you complain, but survivors like their echo chambers? The amount of time you spend feeling sorry for yourself over a computer is insane.
BHVR, please add some sort of block feature so I don't have to see the forum cluttered with this dude's self-pitying threads anymore. Whenever I pop in to see what's going on in the community, the first thing I see is this dude, moaning about survivors. It never stops. This one dude makes the forum look bad all by himself.
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Cognitive dissonance. Many more Survivor mains here, not even close tbh. They will likely upvote a pro-Survivor argument if it meets their preconceived notions, no matter how rudimentary, baseless, or thoughtless the argument may be. Given the fact this is an asymmetrical game, the issue is compounded.
Just like how one could go to see their favorite sports team. Every successful play is because their team is good. Every misstep is the refs fault or bogus rules.
Anyway, this thread has proven my point for these forums. Most posts here can be distilled to the following.
Survivor struggles = poor balancing
Killer struggles = skill issue
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I thought people hate MFT because it makes going down more difficult?
I'm just confused as to what the standard should be. Should survivors be able to run a killer for 5 gens? If yes under what circumstances, If we take into account an average killer is against an average survivor, should this survivor be able to do this?
What about Bloodlust? Doesn't Bloodlust kinda counter what you're saying? Can any survivor of the same skill level as killer run the killer for that long despite BL being added into the game to avoid that kind of a situation? Do you wanna remove BL in that case, so downing a survivor is also a matter of skill and resources used (meaning having to run all the map)?
On top of that, for a survivor to be able to not get downed (or as you say get hit twice), wouldn't that mean the matchmaking be fixed so we don't have games where a survivor that has less than 50 hours is not matched with other survivors and killers who have 300+ hours? Because obviously there's no point in mentioning skill when the matchmaking doesn't work as it should be working.
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I think the major issue is that a lot of survivors only see themself escaping as a win. So even if they run the killer for 5 gens and then get camped/tunneled, the killer did something wrong and BHVR should step in, when in reality they just won the game for their team (3 survivors escape) and the killer lost. I get that it's frustrating to be the one who gets pressured like that but frankly if the killer hard focuses me and then loses, I'll easily take the death.
That being said, most survivors can definitely improve in chase. If you pre-drop shack and go down 2 seconds later then YOU made a mistake and it's not up to the killer, or BHVR, to cheer you on for a nice effort.
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For tunneling not to be successful there has to be a massive skill gap between the survivor and killer.
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And survivors can work on improving to make the skill gap in their favor
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Fail? Most those things are inevitable if skill levels are similar. That's just like saying when a gen pops it's a failure for the killer, it's inevitable in a balanced match.
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You're nearly always met with mass approval on your posts, this one example notwithstanding. I was all but crucified for stating the objective truth that the game is slightly, statistically killer favored. Other threads asserting it is survivor favored have been received to similar approval to your other posts bemoaning the state of killer.
The anti-survivor, pro-killer tack you take in your forum posts is far from a dissenting opinion, it is by and large the dominant perspective. There are plenty of people here to assert the same perspective as you, and I'm fine with them doing that. It is specifically the self-pitying nature and sheer oversaturation of your posts that make me think you're harming yourself in the long run with your posting habits
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'Skill issue? Can't get genrushed if the survivors are all dead!'
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I frequently see killers arguing for map and survivor perk nerfs, on the basis that "you're not supposed to last longer than 30 seconds in a chase". In this context, how is a survivor expected to deal with camping and tunneling when they're expected to die ~3 minutes into a match under such conditions?
In other words, you can't advocate empty dead zone maps and nerfs to chase oriented perks while still allowing camping and tunneling as easy strategies.
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Obviously, however if MMR worked that gap shouldn't exist. Also "I think the major issue is that a lot of survivors only see themself escaping as a win." If you want to take dying for your team a personal win that's great however the devs put a system in place that counts dying as losing no matter what you did in the match.
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BHVR has acknowledged that the MMR system is lacking in that regard and that they're working on making escaping less important. That said, why do people feel so beholden to what an invisible system considers a win or loss? You don't see your MMR go up or down, and the MMR parameters are a joke for matchmaking purposes so it doesn't even better if it goes up or down after a game.
Like, do you actually consider it a loss if you do 3 gens, save a couple of people, get a clutch flashlight save, take the killer on a game losing chase for the last 2 gens and then die in basement cause the killer had NOED and your teammates all left instead of risking it? Are you not capable of making a win/loss judgement for yourself without considering what BHVR's piss poor system thinks of your performance? Lol.
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Not to defend using the MMR system as your metric for winning or losing, because you really should just ignore the MMR system and let it do its work in the background, but that scenario is a loss. The MMR system didn't create the win/loss conditions, they've existed since the game was launched.
The real problem is that people are too caught up in winning or losing and ignore all other details. The scenario you describe is a loss, but in my book, it's a pretty good + fun loss that I'd be perfectly happy with. Others, less so, and they might be happier if they re-evaluated that stance.
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Agree to disagree. Survivors are a team. There are 4 of you and if 3 escape then that's a pretty solid team effort and in my opinion is a win even if I'm the person dying. Not really sure why so many survivors have the mindset that they should be able to 1v1 the killer and if they fail that, they've lost.
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It's definitely a solid team effort and definitely a loss for the killer, but it's also a loss for the survivor that died. That's their goal, is to escape the trial, that's the entire thing all of the mechanics in the game are built around.
You could argue it'd be healthier for the game to be built around a team-based win or loss for the survivor side, but that's both not how it is now and also might be a hard sell for the single person who escaped only to be told they somehow lost that match.
It's not about being able to 1v1 the killer, at all, it's just about how the game is designed. Your win condition as killer is to kill, and your win condition as survivor is to survive. You stand a better chance of doing that if everyone else escapes too, but that isn't required.
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The idea is if you play well you should get teammates that are of similar skill as you. So if you know the game will only reward you with MMR if you escape it might matter to some people. I know MMR is a joke but it does do something. I do see a difference from my wifes account and mine when playing survivor and the difference is huge.
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The problems I see with direct tunneling are:
For killers it is often the most effective thing to do either at that moment or frankly always. It can be the correct thing to do and the easiest thing to do all at the same time.
But for survs we're taking about a feeling you get while it's happening. How tf do you legislate emotional responses like that, to anything fair to both roles? No matter how or why you're on that hook, you just don't want to be the one chased next when you are unhooked.
Where you're hooked, what's around you to use, your own loadout & skill, and the behavior of your allies all come into play here, but at the end of the day if the killer wants you they get you in most instances. It kinda has to be that way when it's a four on one game.
Also sadly here is where I wish there weren't "mains" in this game, just players. I really do think this matters. Playing both roles at least to a competent level I strongly believe not only makes you better at your preferred role, but more likely to be empathetic to both roles and how it feels to play either side.
But I admittedly don't have any easy fixes for this either. It certainly is beyond just solely a skill issue though.
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MMR needs to include a Team rating for one thing
Another thing is to add more things that can be tracked for MMR
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My posts get mass approval? I must be missing something.
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You are now sidestepping your original post and just whining about the forum. Just clarify what you actually meant in your post because everyone including myself is confused.
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As long as you can be the most dogshit Killer player in the world and still getting one Survivor downed 99% of the time, your thread is pointless.
(Not saying that the most dogshit Killer player in the world would actually win the game, but they will get a down eventually. Which is the whole point of this thread)
Nope, it was because of.. *looks at the top page of the Forum*... MFT. (I might have to edit this once the Perk is nerfed, because there will be a new thing why Killers who lost games before MFT, during MFT and after MFT are still losing games...)
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Dunwich it’s literally the title of your post. Lol
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team goin in for protection hits will delay it
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personally i would make it so the entity would block the hit with one of its claws
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im a kid and i play it as if its just a game
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many people say the opposite but most things in this game are a skill issue
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Any pushback against their arguments gets completely ignored because, like they said, there's more survivor players here. So any time people disagree with them, they just blame it on the idiot survivors who will like any post. Despite the fact that some of the most incoherent threads made by killer players, who insult survivors players and whine that BHVR doesn't care about them and that they are being mistreated, will garner double-digit upvotes.
They didn't get the response they wanted, so the thread has now served it's purpose as it confirmed what they originally thought, that this forum is survivor sided. See? It's got nothing to do with the fact that it was a stupid thread, that instead of offering constructive feedback, chose to insult survivors who don't like getting tunneled by suggesting that they just suck at the game.
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That's great, you are displaying a maturity that outstrips some of the adults here. 👍️
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So very unfortunately true
For the topic:
While we agree with some of the sentiments, we're gotta to point out that tunneling does not always allow for survivors to display or improve the skills listed (for example how would they improve said stealth skill if the killer is within line of view)
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Cognitive dissonance.Just like how one could go to see their favorite sports team. Every successful play is because their team is good. Every misstep is the refs fault or bogus rules.How is it that you are so certain you are not the one suffering from cognitive dissonance?
Anyway, this thread has proven my point for these forums. Most posts here can be distilled to the following.Survivor struggles = poor balancingKiller struggles = skill issueBefore your reply here there were 16 posts that gave you the "proof" you needed.
If we're going to discuss cognitive dissonance we need to discuss how 16 posts, some of which agree with you and many of which weren't really related, were all you needed for 'proof'.
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Working backwards, it's been...
MFT, dramaturgy briefly, Sprint burst and lithe, nerfed dead hard, Sprint burst and lithe, then dead hard, at least going back about a year and a half ago.
But that's just the 'exhaustion' perks, it's also been BNP, prove thyself, circle of healing, medkits, map design, too many pallets, and the lack of regression perks strong enough to hold every game hostage for an hour.
At this point, the goal post is constantly moving at about 10 miles per second.
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Once a surv is hooked for the first time, tunneling that surv out is not difficult. I mean they're injured and the killer knows exactly where they are. Even an amazingly skilled surv will succumb to even a mediocre killer if that killer determines to tunnel. Skill isn't really expressed that much in DBD generally, and as the target of a sustained tunnel, your skill is made nearly irrelevant.
I generally find most complaints about killer play to be laughable reactionary BS, but serially tunneling survs out as a general practice is the lowest skill, most mindless iteration of killer strategy there is. It's almost a shameful way to "win".
IMHO.
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Because it is super hard to hook a survivor in a area that you had a chase with no pallets left and leave them in a deadzone where two hits is kinda easy to pull off.
Tunneling is the last grasp tactic of a bad killer. It's just that simple. I saw a Dredge tunnel and his excuse for the tunnel to the survivor he tunneled was "I broke chase because why chase the good survivor when I can tunnel the weaker survivor."
Funny thing is, the other survivor was someone I know, and a better looper than me who he abandoned chasing. It's just the ability to get someone down when they are in a dead zone and haven't had a moment to look around.
I never see good killer players do it.
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this is about as many upvotes as i've ever seen on a thread; there were ~10 posts in a row agreeing with you (that survivors by and large want easy games and killers are so disrespected) before a single dissenter showed up
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I think tunneling is acceptable late game if things are going really badly, but if it's the default tactic or what the killer turns to at the first whiff of a challenge...yeah, it's really bad look.
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Ehhhhh, yeah that last part isn't true.
Good Killer players don't tunnel when they don't need to. Tunneling is in a unique position. It's something that's absurdly strong at low levels and usually a crutch, painfully bad at mid levels and nearly required (depending on the Killer and Survivor skill) at high levels.
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