“MFT will be a perk you have to put thought and effort into using”
Okay let’s talk about this. The big complaint I saw about this perk was that all you had to do to use it was get injured, and therefore it took no skill and rewarded you for playing badly.
Okay fine. So how are we all justifying Ultimate Weapon then? Where is the thought and effort required to use Ultimate Weapon? All you have to do is not know where survivors are and open a locker and boom, you get all the information. Not only do you get info on where there are, they get a negative status effect for 30 seconds and you CONTINUE to get info on where they are for 30 seconds anytime they enter your terror radius during that time. Meaning if a survivor is lucky enough to not be in your terror radius when you use it, they have to know where the killer is (doesn’t happen) and stay out of that radius for 30 seconds otherwise they get revealed and inflicted as well. And how do they know where the killer is? Terror radius usually but once you’re in that, it’s already too late.
After that 30 seconds, you only have to wait 30 more seconds and you can rinse and repeat.
People say “run calm spirit” but that means you’re telling people to take up an entire perk slot for every match on the off chance that a killer has UW. And weren’t killer mains complaining about having to use perk slots to counter MFT?
So again, explain to me what thought, effort or skill is required to utilize this level? How is this perk also not a reward for not playing well? When is this perk going to get looked at? Just saying what’s good for the goose…
Comments
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To be fair, Ultimate Weapon is a dramatically weaker effect than Made For This.
While I do think that perk could use some minor tweaks (largely to the tune of removing its Blindness, and maaayyybeee tweaking the active duration/cooldown ratio), it's hardly anywhere near as strong or potentially problematic as MFT was. The effect is strictly weaker in every way, being the weakest form of tracking that requires a terror radius (thus making it killer and map dependent), and unlike MFT, it has no crazy synergies that make it overwhelmingly busted. It barely has synergies at all, for that matter. Distressing, maybe?
The design space is trading availability for a weaker reward. Perks that provide much more valuable information, specifically auras, tend to either require more effort or have more conditions. To use the MFT example, it'd be Lithe's much stronger Haste traded for much less availability and extra conditions.
Also, as an aside, the statement "it isn't a problem for a perk to require thought and effort" doesn't inherently mean every perk must require that same thought and effort. Some perks can just work passively (or in UW's case, semi-passively) and that's okay, it's true of perks on both sides.
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Yeah it didn't take skill. It was on deathslinger oh I land a good shot on you, be collision makes you stuck, or I hit you, and now your rewarded for MY GOOD SHOT. It was the most frustrating thing to get stuck in a chase that lasted forever because of that perk. Dead lock became a necessity. As for ultimate weopon, I don't use it, but I've played against it enough to understand that it's a bit strong. Maybe change it to 40 second cool down, 20 second use.
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You have to search a locker, which most killers have to go out of their way to do for little reason than to use the perk for 30 seconds which will then go on CD. During those 30 you need a survivor in your terror radius meaning you probably have to move and search the map atleast little for a single scream and blind. All this does near nil during the actual chase.
Old MFT, get hurt and get speed until healed or exhausted with an added bonus of if you heal someone get some endurance.
Which is more effort?
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Since they fixed the bugs with UW ignoring Calm Spirit and Lockers, I've seen a lot less UW being ran.
While it may be slightly overtuned, checking a locker on most killers on most maps is something you have to go a bit out of your way for which you may not have time to do.
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Those of you defending UW show what side you play and how biased you are. Both these perks are problematic because neither requires any real effort. You can't justify searching a locker and having a scream effect in your terror radius for 30 seconds and try to consider that better than MFT. Lockers are more than plentiful on maps and it's not a big time frame to open one and get info on anywhere from 2-4 survivors at a time. Seriously y'all need to learn that everything goes both ways and if you wanna cry MFT is busted (which it is) go ahead, but you aren't entitled to acting as if UW isn't just as problematic.
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Run UW on either swamp map and come back to me about how lockers are plentiful.
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Exactly my point. Searching a locker takes all of 2 seconds or less and the trade off for stopping to search is info on all the survivors and a status effect that slows them down for 30 seconds at a time. If you okay a 15 minute match that means you have info on all the survivors and a status effect on them for up to half of the entire match. That’s not a weak perk by any means.
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It's strange how we're biased when we're explaining what you have to do to activate each perk in a meaningful way...
We're not crying anything, heck we (rulebreakers) don't even care about either perk, but saying 1 doesn't have though or effort is incorrect.
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I mean if you aren't a weak survivor then the killer knowing where you are shouldn't have that big of an impact outside of camping
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I can justify that, very easily. Here I go:
Opening a locker is a minimal effort sink, and for that effort, you get a minimal reward. A scream is the weakest form of information, and the terror radius quirk of the perk makes it slightly less reliable anyway. While it's hard to directly compare even relevant survivor and killer perks, let alone two that affect different things, I don't think it's too controversial to say that 3% Haste while injured is a strictly stronger effect than a single scream notification.
I promise you I'm asking this next part in good faith, I am interested in your answer. Can you demonstrate why Ultimate Weapon's effect is problematic? That's the effect that I'm talking about here, not the activation requirement. Why is that effect strong enough that it requires more than minimal effort, can you give me a real-game example?
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It will be weakened in one of the next two updates:He is often taken, he is similar in hatred to MFT.
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MFT was problematic because it gave a haste effect with too much of an uptime.
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With MFT, you get hurt and immediately enjoy the benefits no matter what perks or status effects the Killer player has.
With UW, Killers have to search lockers, than have a Survivor in their TR. They than have to chase and down the Survivor. And if the Survivor is running Calm Spirit, UW gets countered, all you have to deal with is blindness.
The only tweak UW needs is remove its wandering effect. Open a locker, game sends out a burst that if a Survivor is in they scream, thats it.
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The wandering effect does need to exist, because then the perk would just be terrible.
Majority of lockers on a map like Rotten fields on are the edge of the map meaning you would be better off not running the perk. Then you have swamp maps that have huge locker deadzones due to the sparse spawning of lockers.
You can make an argument that 30 seconds is too long and nerfing that down to around 15 seconds would be more fair. But given how lockers spawn and maps, you need some bit of wandering for it to be worth the slot.
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I could easily say that if you aren’t a weak killer in chase/mind games then the 3 percent haste shouldn’t effect you since Made For This does nothing for you if you’re a survivor who can’t loop.
🤣 Maybe try looking at the situation fairly instead of reverting to the “skill issue get gud” insult. The point of the game is for the survivors to be found. The game is designed where you can’t just hide from the killer all game, it’s set up for the killer to find you.
I will say that endgame made for this plus hope should not stack because that was unfair but the 3 percent haste was never the issue with MFT the way folks made it out to be, especially when killers have killer instinct to counter it.
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I agree. The wandering effect is what makes it a perk worth running and that’s fair. I would say one of two things needs to happen tho:
- increase the cooldown on it. 30 seconds is way too little time to be able to keep using it throughout the match. I’d give it at least a 90 second cooldown.
- Keep the 30 second cooldown but make the screaming part of the perk deactivate once it has worked on one survivor. That way you only get info on one survivor that you can chase BUT give all the survivors the blindness status still if they come in the radius. The fact that it can proc on every survivor for 30 seconds with only a 30 second cooldown is too much.
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UW, Nowhere to hide and darkness revealed have completely changed how survivor has to play.
Either run distortion or don't bother playing stealthy as survivor.
With BBQ you would know when to hide or when your location could be known. But not with these new aura reading perks. No killer perks make you "go out of your way" for value. That's only survivor perks.
Killer perks usually give value for doing your objective.
Survivor perks usually have certain requirements that when met still require skill or luck.
New made for this is worthless.
UW is WoO for killer. But killer mains will argue WoO is autopilot and demand its removal.
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I'm entirely agree, it's entirely possible to think both perks are overpowered.
A wise man once said "Anyone who makes up their mind before they've even heard the issue is a fool", and I would count anyone who aligns their opinion with a particular 'side' as a part of that.
I've made my disdain for UW known in many threads, so I wont parrot it here, but just cause one OP perk is getting nerfed, and the other isn't, definitely doesn't mean that nerf shouldn't go through... a point I wouldn't make if I hadn't seen it quite a few times already 😒
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Uhhhh, very much disagree.
UW is actually significantly better than MFT.
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That's a pretty extraordinary claim.
Do you have any reasoning for it?
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I agree just because both perks have issues doesn’t mean one shouldn’t get a nerf. I do think MFT was over nerfed considerably but I do think it was broken being allowed to stack with stuff like Hope for example. I think BHVR did what they always do and instead of announcing reasonable changes they’re just gutting it to quiet all the complainers.
That being said UW is a problem too and I think anyone who can look at MFT and say it’s a problem but that UW isn’t is being biased and disingenuous.
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The perk is usable on every Killer regardless of skill level.
The place where it's worst is in mid-tiers of skill but it's still extremely strong. It outclassed every single other tracking perk in the game.
It pushes high tiers even higher and still buffs lower tiers a lot.
It's tracking is absolutely insane on Killers like Oni, Nurse, Blight, wesker etc etc. It doesn't matter what perk you have or how you opponent plays, you'll find them and kill them if you're even remotely skilled.
Contrast this with MFT where Survivors need to be experienced and moderately skilled to get any significant value and you can't be playing against certain Killers who aren't affected by it.
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The 30 second radius after opening a locker will take care of that. Also maps and RNG can be either harmful or helpful to anyone regardless of using UW or something else
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Most killer perks activate via normal gameplay. Hook survivor, get info. Down survivor, blow up gens. Kick gens, get info or slow that gen further. Even Ultimate Weapon falls under that as searching lockers sometimes finds survivors. Other perks don't even require the killer to do anything such as, unhook a survivor get exposed.
Most of the strong perks people run, they run because they line up well with other perks and require no effort/thought from the killer. It just snowballs and builds and works (Yes, there are exceptions but not many).
So why is it so unacceptable for survivors to have a perk that activates from normal gameplay? I will always believe that the biggest issue with Made For This was that it stacked with Hope. If they had removed the endurance and killed the stack with Hope (have MFT deactivate in endgame collapse) there would be no real issue with the perk.
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While is is correct, that ultimate weapon requires less effort to use than other perks, it only rewards the player with info.
This is not even info that can be used in chase due to only screams being shown.
Made for this does something entirely different. It increases chase time. That's way more damaging to the killer player.
Take a perk like surge for example (so glad I don't have to say: "/jolt" anymore).
All the killer does is down a survivor with m1. That's basicly something they already do to begin with. "Seems like made for this isn't that problematic then right?" I hear you saying.
However, I think what needs to mentioned here is that dbd is a asymmetrical 1v4.
The killer has to handle four survivors. Chase time needs to be very short if Survivors are efficient on gens.
Therefore the killer doesn't have the time to do gigantic amounts of work for a perk to do something.
The perks that actually do need a lot of work to do something usually have a strong effect or are downright bad.
Example for strong perk : devour hope
Example for weak perk: grim embrace
And even for these perks you could tell that they build up naturally through the match.
If a Survivor perk however has this much power as made for this has AND is not really counterable by the opposing side. It becomes very problematic.
You basicly have to always look at survivor perks like this: there can be 4 in one lobby.
Therefore they need to have heavy restrictions if the effect is very strong.
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Nothing can get buffed/nerfed around here without a thousand cries of whataboutism.
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I think ultimate weapon is quite strong and needs a change but.... I forget I'm even running it on most killers :( . I think either the cool down should be increased or maybe it should max out at 2 survivors screaming. Possibly make it only work when a certain distance away from a hooked survivor as well.
It pairs to well with deadmans switch. Depending on the map and killer I'm playing I would open a locker, pick up and hook the survivor, then zoom across the map as fast as I could just to activate deadmans switch. Sometimes it was better to hook first then open the locker but on any large maps I tend to just ignore some of the gens anyway.
Grim embrace also seemed to do well with the other 2 though at that point I can't imagine how annoying the build had to be to play against.
I wouldn't say this was super strong by any means but obnoxious and probably unfun to play against. It's the same way I feel about MFT. Ive never had much of a problem playing against it. It's just a nuisance having to chase a few extra seconds or swing a couple seconds later than I normally would. With my insane survivor skills though (/sarcasm), I quit using it because it felt like I didn't get much use out of it. It didn't stop me from running into objects or losing mindgames, and made everything feel a bit off when I didn't run it.
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Ultimate weapon has a 7.27% pick rate compared to MFT who has 24.97% I'll let you do the math to figure out why one got nerfed over the other. The debuff is there to counter WoO who has 34.74% pick rate.
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You miss the part where you have to go find a locker, otherwise yes.
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Pick rate has nothing to do with it. Especially since BHVR claims they don’t nerf perks based on pick rates.
This post is about people claiming that MFT needed nerfed because it was a free perk that didn’t require any skill or effort to use. Same for UW.
You’re arguing a straw man that no one even brought up.
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a location reveal with a 1 minute cd isn't as strong as 3% perma movement speed so they aren't comparable. though i'd argue it should get its numbers tweaked like 5 seconds active window and like 45 seconds cooldown.
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There are maps that have little to no lockers to help with UW therefore making the perk situational. MFT does not have RNG behind it.
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MFT is by far strongest perk in the game. there is nothing on killer side that even comes close to MFT power-level. tracking is decent bonus to have on killer side but it is not game-changing bonus that makes you win the match on the spot.
MFT for skilled survivor can produce long game-winning chases if survivor is good enough at looping. you can lose games on the spot as killer from extended chases vs MFT. This does not mean that killer has no counter or gameplay towards the perk but the fact that strong loop setups can sometimes discourage you from pursuing the the chase showcases its strength. You still have to be like top-level looper to produce game-winning chases with MFT which is why I would still consider in the realm of balanced.
Contrast this with MFT where Survivors need to be experienced and moderately skilled to get any significant value and you can't be playing against certain Killers who aren't affected by it.
every single killer is affected by MFT. the question is how much you are affected by a perk and whether you can still win the match regardless if the perk is in play.
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The issue with mft wasnt that getting injured was 'you misplaying', the issue was that the 3% disproportionately affects m1 killers for no prerequisite from the survivor while also doing nothing against S tier killers.
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That’s absolutely false. MFT did not affect S tier killers especially if they knew how to chase and mind game. MFT did nothing for lower tier players who didn’t know how to loop. Trust me, I’m one of them. I can’t loop and MFT did nothing for me, I still went down.
Everyone is acting like all you had to do with MFT was hold W and you’d do 5 gen runs the entire match and that’s so far from reality. MFT took skill with looping to be effective.
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Sorry about the late response, my notifications seem to be broken lol
How does it outclass every other source of tracking, though? It's explicitly the weakest type of info in the game (save for Whispers and its very specific mechanic), and while it is more freely available than most sources, it's not so available that it overcomes that by any real metric.
To me, it feels like people are seeing strong chase killers with mobility doing very well with it, and conclude it must be the perk. It isn't, though, it's that they're killers that can very efficiently capitalise on even weak information- which is what UW is, it's weak information. Not a weak perk, I think it's pretty decent, but what I'm saying is that a scream is only a general idea of what direction a survivor is in. One scream every 60 seconds at most, 30 seconds at least, is... good, it's a good perk, but it just tells the killer where to start looking for someone. Everything else - everything - is down to that player's ability to follow environment clues to find someone (assuming they aren't just in the open and visible, anyway) and their skill in chase, which UW doesn't affect whatsoever.
Those killers would do just as well if not better with any other source of information activating at that moment. Ultimate Weapon isn't doing anything more than pointing them in a direction and ushering them on their way. It is a good perk, I'm not saying it's weak, but it's not that good by a longshot.
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All top-tiers are affected literally 0%.
If you are a good Killer, you will still win the VAST majority of your matches, even IF Survivors run MFT.
As an extremely good Solo Q player, you will still LOSE most of your matches when the Killer runs UW because it prevents any sort of hiding the weak link. It also allows the Killer to know where you are at all times, which is one of the strongest things you can have as a Killer, ESPECIALLY one with high mobility.
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i would argue that if current MFT is fine, then pre nerf Thanataphobia should be brought back. If getting injured justifies a permanent 3% speed boost then a high gen repair speed decrease for spreading injuries is well deserved.
While the Blindness on Ultimate Weapon could be removed, the tracking merely informs the Killer of where a Survivor is so that the chase can begin. If the Survivor isn’t good at chase, then obviously they are going to call Ultimate Weapon overpowered because they are relying on stealth to play the game. Is hiding and minimizing interaction with the Killer really that fun especially in 2023 DBD?
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This is why I'm actually going perkless as survivor. I didn't use MFT and I don't care if they want to change perks up every now and then, but there's a reoccurring theme of survivor perks being nerfed into becoming either situational, penalised, or requiring more effort than is worth the value. Swfs can probably coordinate themselves around these conditions, but as always solo queue is disproportionately affected. By going perkless I'm gonna remove myself from caring so much about this. I'm currently down to 3 off meta perks (because I don't want to let the team down until I can manage without) and will keep dropping. Plus it'll save me money not buying DLCs, so win win.
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