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This game's balance philosophy is upsetting.
I don't understand the balance philosophy of the devs, removing fast vaults after falling (check 7.4.0 patch notes) means they don't really like bugs that allow you to "bypass" limitations "coded" into the game for balance, but Wesker sliding on walls and Blight hug teching and Oni doing 180s during dashes did not get fixed, so I guess they selectively choose what intended mechanics you can break? Why are the above mentioned "techs" a "skill ceiling expression" but the quirky vaults you can make in less than 5 maps only if rng blesses you a bug that has to be fixed? I hope I can get a clear answer from the devs in order to understand exactly the thought process behind how these decisions are taken, also share your thoughts below, I'm curious about everybody's opinion on this! This is not meant to be an us vs them post, but killer techs are the only things that came to my mind to compare with survivor's fall vaults.
Edit 1: reading the patch notes seems like Freddy lost his ability to place Snares through walls, this all comes back to "so I guess they selectively choose what intended mechanics you can break?" from my original post.
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Yeah I don't get this at all
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Oni doing 360s
that would look so goofy lmao
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Past few years (or more?) Devs choose the most unexpected things to modify (butcher), and everything anticipated to receive changes gets blatantly, completely ignored.
Nevermind it mostly, but I’m understanding how it’s grating on ppls nerves.
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It is a little bizarre what is vs isn't an exploit in the devs eyes.
It seems to go based on what gets the most buzz from the community. They patched out Wesker being able to turn during a dash on one PTB and it caught so much flack that it never made it to live. There was also a PTB where they made it so you could curve (original) Dead Hard and that also got taken out before live. It seems like it might be at least partially based on outrage.
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Not going to say what should and what shouldnt get fixed there but sometimes bugs do get turned into features which is sometimes great.
Best example is probably Donkey Kong Country, where you can do a jump after rolling off of something. This was originaly a bug but the devs liked it so much that they made it into a important mechanic.
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I remember with AutoHeaven graphic update, Trapper couldnt place traps 4m around the Gates. Or manythings that were to hide beartrap (pillows in Yamaoka, snow/sand in Ormond/Eyrie, doorstep in Badham, broken glass windows in Autoheaven....) but not anymore, and each of them were updated through many patches, not all at the same time.
So Im sure they care about little things and patch it out, but choose to not fix the others like Blight/Wesker/Oni.
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I didn't see this actually impact games much, but when it did it was pretty busted.
A jungle gym that had it's window facing a hill on Eyrie's of crows that I saw recently comes to mind. Basically meant the survivor would run up there any time they heard the terror radius, then if you wanted to chase them you would have to go all the way around and up the hill and then they would just drop off and vault into the jungle gym with a huge head start.
Set you up for a game losing chase with very little you could do about it other than not chase there
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Killer stuff, such as wall hugging with blight and wesker, and sinning 360 with oni, require skill, timing, and in Oni's case accuracy. Wesker and Blight require knowledge on collision, how sliding works, and even then is not always successful. Oni's flick is pretty damn hard to do, and harder to land.
Meanwhile quickvaulting from drops requires nothing more than "Press space as you fall" to execute; no skill, no knowledge other than the option exists, and almost always successful even if the killer is right behind you because they launch a little bit instead of dropping like survivors do.
If it required some sort of skill or knowledge, and didnt turn some areas into guaranteed chase extensions, i dont think people would really care about it staying in the game.
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My bad, I meant 180s, just fixed that.
The dead hard curving was confirmed to be a bug since the start of the PTB.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about, I'm asking what the decision making behind what game breaking mechanic can stay and wich is
I am totally fine with them fixing broken stuff, the post is about something else, why was this broken survivor "tech" fixed before Blight's hug tech for example, wich is as if not more broken than those very situational and rng based vaults. We all know Blight is a very strong/broken character, is not like they're deciding to ignore that because he's super weak or something. Mind you I'm a Blight main mostly.
The vaults do require critical thinking and map knowledge, as well as a bit of movement knowledge too. When Hawkins came back me and a friend with a little bit less than 300 hours played the map in custom so I could teach her some neat survivor and killer plays I knew from when that map used to be in the game. She literally couldn't take the falling fast vault in the portal room from the cat walk, she can't to this date actually and we tried a lot.
As for the first part of the post, I'll start by saying that hug tech as blight is pretty easy, never was much of a problem, but also, if something is game breaking it should get fixed following this "philosophy" no matter how hard it is to pull of. It is kinda like nurse power, of course a baby nurse will get probably 0 kills, but once she gets "mastered" all the games are going to be 4ks. Does it take skills? Yes. Is it fair tho? Not a all.
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Remember when last year's meta shake-up they said they wanted to make more playstyles viable instead of tunneling out the first survivor at five gens and then they nerfed DS into the ground and reworked OTR to be the most useless "anti-tunnel" perk this game has ever seen? Pretty good job so far!
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You forgot the /s at the end.
I agree! BHVR's balance methods are less than useful. They take too long to act (Usually due to trying to maximize sales before nerfing), OVER-nerf things (Like MFT, DS, etc, but excluding DH: Second iteration was best imo), and straight up show their inability to efficiently run the game by only looking at numbers to make changes (Hillbilly fiasco for example.)
I've given up trying to sway the 10+ friends I want to play this with as they just laugh at the game's handling.
Yes, I have 10 friends, honest!
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I'm just not used to posting here much, I'm mostly fine with the game and when I'm not I want to share feedback.
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I honestly don't think there were enough people complaining about the second version of DH to warrant nerfing it to what it is now. Like it is still good but I miss using to take hits for people.
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But it's more like their coding isn't up to the amount of balance patches they want
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We know that Blight's Hug Tech is an exploit and they even said they wanted to get rid of it. We just don't know why it hasn't happened yet. The vaults weren't just quirky. They were completely game breaking. There is a reason, that old Balanced Landing was considered a disgusting perk. If survivors can skip their stagger time (in any way), that allows them to play certain structures in ways that should not be possible. The stagger time is a way to balance otherwise overpowered structures. I have seen people abuse this on Mother's Dwelling and Coal Tower in my games but there were more instances of this on other maps too.
Oni doing 180s is perfectly fine in my opinion. He should be able to hit people right next to him. Let's not make him another Billy, who sometimes can't even hit people that are centre screen. Also, we don't know if this is actually a bug / exploit. Just as J-techs for Blight. They work but were they intended or not? We don't know, because the devs don't tell us.
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I don't think it's a case of design philosophy and more of a case of workflow and priorities.
Don't forget that Dead by Daylight for the devs is a constant set of deadlines they have to meet. New chapters release every 3 months and they need to be presentable by the time the release date comes. Also take in concideration that not every bug is fixed in the same timeframe.
For example Blights hug tech and the fast vault after falling thing you talked about. How do you fix the Blight hug tech? Is it something to do with Blight himself? Or is it something with maps collision? If it's the later that means they would have to alter every single map in the game all in the month and half time between patches and after the actual content for said patch is done. Meanwhile the fast vault while falling could be just a small change made to survivor and done.
There is also the thing that each patch can only have so much bandwith. A change to survivors controls would not take as much space as a change that has to happen to every single map. Would fixing Blights hug tech really be worth not being able to add a dozen other bugfixes?
So in that example it's not really that fast vaulting while falling is that much worse then the hug tech that it needed fixing asap. It could be just a case of the fix was simple.
(disclaimer above is just an example, I don't know how coding works so highly likely what i said isn't accurate. It's just a way to get my point across)
While we ofcourse have to report bugs and let them know about this stuff I think it's also important to remember that we don't know what happens behind the scenes.
It's easy to point at the super obvious bug that players find 5 minutes after a patch and to say BHVR doesn't playtest or fixes things but we don't know if behind the scenes they rushed to fix a dozen worse bugs and just didn't have time for that one.
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If you read my post history I say that I'm fine nerfing the vaults, I just find the lack of communication and their priorities very weird
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Pepperidge Farm remembers
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The dont know what balance means, they just knows butchering, im sorry but it is what is. There are I dont know how many useless perks that they could buff but no, they only focus on the ten more used and thats it, its so frustrating that we are in a point where we are scared of the patch notes because you know they are destroying more things that fixing them, and lets not forget how solo q is always in the bottom of the list of priorities, there is nothing worse than playing alone this game as survivor
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Removing the stagger time from falling is busted and should get priority for being fixed.
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Well like i said, their priorities depend on things we have no clue about and they don't really owe us a explanation about every single thing that happens behind the scenes
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They do owe us more clearness and transparency what are you talking about? We are as important as the devs to make the game work, no players = dead game.
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It isn't inconceivable that some issues are far harder to fix than others.
When it came to Blight/Wesker hug techs, wasn't there an attempt to fix these and it caused more problems than it solved? Might need a vet to verify.
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Most players don't care about what's going on behind the scene. As long as there is a game and people enjoy it they will play, no matter the transparency.
If you buy tickets to a concert you also don't expect to be allowed backstage do you?
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I do if I purchased the ticket that includes VIP Meet & Greet or backstage access. I've been backstage to meet members of Black Sabbath, Amon Amarth, Mastodon, and Slipknot. Have you ever bought a concert ticket other than lawn or GA?
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Did you buy the VIP Meet & Greet version of DbD?
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I would if they offered it. I'm also not the one using concert tickets as an example. A poor example at that. Hope you can afford better tickets one day.
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Perfect example
When you buy DbD what you are essentially buying is acces to the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like you would a concert.
Also you might not know this but not every concert has VIP tickets to go backstage, i know i worked at them.
Good to see that things don't change much in that the avarage DbD player still doesn't understand how analogies work.
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That's nonsense, for the lacking of transparency overwatch 2 achieved the most disliked game on steam.
Your analogy made no sense that's why nobody got it. Stop acting know-it-all, step down from your pedestal and accept that a game with no players is a dead game and not being transparent as a game company can hurt your profits. It happened to dbd during the time around the twins.
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Actually they do.
Last I checked, the players financially support BHVR, not the other way around.
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i'm calling it, if they ever "fix" oni's 180s, he will be a multiple times weaker killer probably bottom b tier. he would have to chase m1 around rocks and simplest objects and waste probably half his power just to get the pallet thrown. hope it never happens.
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At this point they should bring out DBD 2 with better EVERYTHING like holy smokes this game needs a massive update on all fronts
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Yeah no
You are taking transparancy to it's extreme. Being transparent as in sharing what's coming, what the design goals are and stuff is important and they do that.
Expecting them to file in a report on what they have and haven't worked on is extremely arrogant karen behaviour
Sounds to me like you need to get off your high horse. You bought the right to acces the game. That makes you a customer. Not their boss.
Players yes. The people who are expecting a game.
Not the sad few who expect a status report on everything like a narcissistic office manager.
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Yeah but those maps that had the ability to fast vault from a drop to ignore the drop stun just made the already stupidly strong loops even stronger.
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