Knockout needs a nerf. I'm over it

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Having a killer with a bleed out build is no fun, let alone having it multiple times a week. I'm over laying on the ground for a total of 4 minutes, I'm over being unable to progress the game because all anyone is doing is picking each other up so we aren't all downed or don't bleed out. I'm also over killers thinking its a funny, quirky thing to do, it's just plain lazy.

Either nerf the perk so that it doesn't remove survivor aura or change it entirely

Or add basekit unbreakable after 1 or 2 mins... (although with this perk it'd still happen, it would just make it the slightest bit more bearable)

All the wraith did was down people and then move on to the next victim, we were all on it with picking each other up and healing to the best of our ability but people just kept getting downed, by the time we hit 2 gens we were all essentially stuck in the game and could only die slowly as one after the other finally bled out. I was the 2nd last survivor and I just went up to him to let the last person potentially get hatch, which they luckily did.

This should not be a first resort of getting kills in this game, boring, uncounterable in soloq and just hella annoying. I feel like this topic has been mentioned before but nothing has changed. So I'm begging behaviour to look into this and do something about it, sacrificing/moris should be encouraged, not bleeding out, there is not intractability for survivors just being straight up bled out. Why this perk was ever made in the first place to encourage this kind of gameplay is beyond me, but it's been time to remove it.


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Comments

  • dknb
    dknb Member Posts: 133
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    agree

    The game is just only miserable, nothing fun.

    Devs need to supression to tactics that kill without hooks.

  • HugTechLover
    HugTechLover Member Posts: 2,482
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    Hah, just had a wraith do the exact same thing yesterday. Thrilling gameplay.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,368
    edited November 2023
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    The idea I think of this perk is to make slugging more effective, and while people hate slugging, it is reasonable for the killer to force Survivors away or punish players for hovering nearby for potential saves.

    From the killers point of view when not using this perk to troll, you would want a perk that allows you to slug, but has a pretty reasonable chance of you being able to return to that survivor and still get your hook without excessive time wasting, or even complete loss of your target. The unfortunate downside is it also allows the 4 minute bleedout troll. So my attempt to fix it would be to switch the permanent and timed effects around, to something like:

    Putting a Survivor into the Dying State with your Basic Attack:

    • Reduces the Crawling speed by -50 %.
    • Reduces the Recovery speed by -25 %.
    • Crawling causes bleed out progression to progress +300 % faster (60 secs)

    For the next 10 seconds, the following effects apply to the dying Survivor:

    • Their aura is prevented from being revealed to any Survivor who is farther than 24/16/8metres away from them.
    • Suffers from the Blindness Status Effect.
    • Causes them to be deafened.


    This would mean you can crawl away, but doing so will be much slower and will bleed you out much faster, so you are heavily incentivised to not move, but also severely limits the ability to troll survivors as well.

    There is an initial block on survivor being able to see you from afar, which aids vs. background player, and also makes assessing, positioning and timing for flashlight and pallet saves more difficult, especially as the survivor can't see aura's themselves to assist their SWF.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,172
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    But what you described does not fit, because if you slug to prevent a fast unhook because a survivor is around then this thing does nothing, unless you already know where the survivor is chan chase him... I think they should just give the perk a whole new purpose and effect, because everything around slugging, getting bled out and not found by teammates is just super annoying and not healthy for the game.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,368
    edited November 2023
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    I said flashlight saves and pallet saves dude, not fast unhooks. Ensuring noone is nearby is something you want to do, and if you confirm someone is nearby, it is absolutely an occassion you want to slug.

    Taking something like Infectious Fright and my new Knock Out would be great at ensuring noone can make a save because either, they're nearby and you can slug, or you can pick up and won't get a 20meter Background Player sprint knowing exactly where you are.

    The faster bleedout on movement combined with the slowdown means that a survivor CAN move if they REALLY need to, but they will most likely need their teammates to save them, and in the event someone goes for the full 4 man bleedout slug, they can't torment survivors for 4 minutes, they only get 1 minute, which is much more palatable, and can even allow players to bleedout for hatch.

    Happy to have counter arguments BTW, but I genuinely don't understand your critique.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,172
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    You explicitly said neither of those two things, you said potential saves... Also unless the guy is under a pallet or right in the open you probably should still hook and not slug because then you basically keep two survivors busy.

    If the guy is already near by, he will know where the other person went down without seeing the aura, otherwise sure I guess. But the problem with background player is more about that perk being overtuned than about the mechanic itself, we should not slap stuff on other perks, just because a perk is too strong.

    Still perks that revolve around slugging people are just not healthy. I don't think it is a benefit do die faster and go next, like sure if you really don't want to play anymore but otherwise... Is that really gameplay that's wanted? Someone slugs you and you just give up after a minute? Great now people can even give up on the floor and we have a perk that is still so annoying they wanna do that? Not really a benefit... According to the wiki crawling speed is 70cm/s so with the 1 minute bleed out+50% reduction on speed you can crawl around 21 m. Sure you can move, but you don't really get that far, maybe under a pallet, but with not seeing the aura part gone after a few seconds I guess it does not reallly matter if you can move or not since they then see where you are.

    I also don't think that bleeding out for hatch or tormenting less should be tied to a perk, if you think both should be in the game then as basekit and not bound to a perk. On a side note I don't think slugging for hatch/4k should be a thing, but hatch itself is also problematic, because the whole looking for hatch thing is just such a stupid luck based thing, but back to the main thing...

    Getting slugged is super boring, giving perks incentives to basically slug more, or slug more safe or whatever is not something I would want, because it makes it more likely people will do so, and even then the perk will probably still not be meta or even good. We could come up with a far more fun interaction. Like let's say after getting downed by a basic attack, the next time you get picked up/unhooked your controls are reversed, because you got hit on the head, it would not be a good perk, but it would be funny and probably a meme perk, the duration would be debateable, you could even make it only activate under a different condition so it gives you some value, but at least this perk would give you a fun interaction, it would not be strong but also not annoying.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
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    This perk does nothing against SWF and yet so much against solo queue. It really needs a rework.

  • tyantlmumagjiaonuha
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    There are too few advantages to hanging on hooks other than BP.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,542
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    It should just be reworked entirely.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,368
    edited November 2023
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    You explicitly said neither of those two things, you said potential saves...

    Yeah OK I said potential save.. I meant as in flashlights or pallets... as an unhook is not a save that would be relevant to a perk that works on a dying survivor, but we'll chalk that up to a miscommunicaiton and move on.

    Also unless the guy is under a pallet or right in the open you probably should still hook and not slug because then you basically keep two survivors busy.

    I don't agree with this statement, as you are stating it's typically better to pick up and hook rather than slug to occupy 2 survivors... and that is simply not true. If you slug a survivor nearby after you get a down, you may get an extra hit they have to heal off, maybe even a down, and now you have 2 players down instead of 1, meaing a 3rd survivor has to come for the save. It's the Killer's choice based on thier assessment of the situation as to whether it is beneficial to slug or not. Whether you like slugging or not, it doesn't matter, it is a viable strategy in a number of scenarios, and a calculated risk for the killer to potentially lose a hook for the chance to get more hooks, or even win the game. If survivors don't wanna get slugged, they shouldn't be nearby, it's that simple.

    If the guy is already near by, he will know where the other person went down without seeing the aura, otherwise sure I guess. But the problem with background player is more about that perk being overtuned than about the mechanic itself

    He will know they went down, but if there are LOS blockers, he won't know exactly where, he won't know what direction they fell, and he won't which direction the killer is picking them up from. This makes it a strong deterrent to players lingering around for saves, cause they may get slugged, and even if they don't they have a much harder time pulling a save off.

    I also don't think that bleeding out for hatch or tormenting less should be tied to a perk, if you think both should be in the game then as basekit and not bound to a perk.

    It's funny you mention that, as I've made this suggestion before for a basekit "sprint crawl" that causes you to bleed out at an accelerated rate in order to move faster. I would slow down none sprint crawling ofc to say 75% and then boost this to 125%. Tenacity gives even more speed to make that perk better. Sadly ignored, but I'd still like the idea a lot.

    Getting slugged is super boring, giving perks incentives to basically slug more, or slug more safe or whatever is not something I would want, because it makes it more likely people will do so, and even then the perk will probably still not be meta or even good. We could come up with a far more fun interaction.

    My goal was to make the perk a healthier slug perk... not kill it my man... whether you, me or anyone likes it or not, slugging is a strategy in the game, and outside of the 4 man slug troll that Knock Out currently supports, I don't really have an issue with it, cause ultimately it was my fault that I was hanging nearby if I get slugged. I wouldn't expect the killer to leave me alone if I was.

    As an olive branch though, this perk would still be painful to be hit by, and the reduced anti-save aura effect that I'm introducing would be more appealing.... though it kinda already does that even worse anyway... I even gave the aura block a shorter cooldown so that you are incentived to pick up immediately while the aura isn't there rather than going ahead and slugging.

    Of the 2 I think this version is far less obnoxious than the current one.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,533
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    Then why not run Unbreakable... rather then asking to have it basekit so you can keep using the same 4 Perks

    Just saying

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,533
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    Fair enough... but it's more like why ask for Unbreakable to be basekit if you don't even use the perk?

    I don't understand that is all

    I know Knockout is bad for the game... But is it cause of the Blindness effect or the other effects

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,172
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    I think it depends on what killer you are playing, can you get an easy hit/down on the other Survivor, for example you are playing Oni and have your power up sure slug, but if you play an m1 killer you probably should not. Generally speaking you should probably hook and then look for the other one, because then the guy on hook is on a 60 timer until next hook stage or death, in the case you don't know where the other survivor is at least, if you already have an idea or know exactly where he is it might be more reasonable to slug.

    If the slug will pay out is more often than not a question of how altruistic the survivors will play and how easy you get your 2nd down. And if you have to find your next chase it is probably not worth it to slug, if you have vision over the 2nd survivor then sure, otherwise, and that will be most cases where a 2nd survivor is lingering around and does not want to be seen you should hook, so while you are looking for the survivor, as before mentioned his timer on hook is ticking down.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,542
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    The main issue with Knockout is that it hides your aura.

    The other effects are not a big deal and really are not even that good since they’re only active for the first 15 seconds (unlike the aura-blocking which lasts indefinitely). During those 15 seconds, the recover speed penalty only adds about 3.75 seconds to the total recovery time (assuming no other recovery speed modifiers are in play), which is not much.

    Overall though I don’t think it’s healthy to have a perk that only gets any value if you go into the match planning to primarily slug survivors and/or slug for a long period of time. For any killer who wants to pick up a survivor right away or even after only slugging for a short period of time, Knockout does almost nothing. There are other perks that can promote some slugging like Infectious and Forced Hesitation, but they don’t require you to slug over and over in order for them to work nor do they encourage you to slug every time, only sometimes. They can also work when only slugging for a shorter period of time. If Infectious lets you know someone is nearby for a save and it’s not safe to pick up, you can act on that accordingly, but you may also learn that no one is around and you can pick up. You may get a free hit on someone with Forced Hesitation but you may decide to go back and pick up afterwards and you’ve gotten your value from the perk already.

    Knockout is different from those perks because it often won’t really do anything if you aren’t slugging a lot, but if you are using it to slug a lot, it’s absolutely miserable to play against and it also affects solo players way more unlike the other perks I mentioned.

    With all that in mind and considering that changing Knockout to not hide your aura anymore would just make the perk kinda bad, I’d rather see the perk reworked with a new effect instead.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
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    Even with unbreakable basekit or not, this perk is a problem. That's why it is not my first choice of dealing with this tactic, and nerfing or reworking the perk is.

    Cause unbreakable is one time use, after that you're back to relying on teammates to find you and still recover very slowly. I also do use unbreakable off and on, but I was not using it this time.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 1,277
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    Just rework it into some decent effect.

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 547
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    You know what I'm over? Survivors blowing through all generators minutes from game start.

    Downing as many as possible in a cyclical fashion with knockout in tandem with other gen slow is one of the only things an M1 killer can do to actually stop truly efficient survivors from erasing the generators faster than a fart in a hurricane. You can't do any more reckless damage to any of the slowdown perks until it's not possible (by default) to finish gens faster than unnatural #########.

    That wraith was a socially weak jackass for rubbing it in your face, but that doesn't give you license to tear down a key component of the only tactic standing in the way of real "rush" squads exerting full-spectrum dominance in advanced gameplay.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,172
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    Well actually a few streamer did a challenge to play m1 only with no killer power and they average on about 80-90+ % killrate, so yeah... I don't think so buddy. As far as I remember they even had it in the challenge to not slug or tunnel or camp or anything, however I could be wrong on this one, not sure.

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 547
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    Do you think going against a bunch of intermediate teams/solos and calculating a percentage from that means something?

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,172
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    If you are saying you need to do a specific thing to win because you have no other choice then yes... If they can do it and you cannot it is simply a skill issue, besides the point where you have a killer power you can rely on whereas those guys limited themselves... You can even bring strong addons...

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 547
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  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,172
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    Limited themselves against the people they play against in normal matchmaking.. Probably around the same level of guys everyone is facing...

  • D0NN1ED4RK0
    D0NN1ED4RK0 Member Posts: 739
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    Rework it into an anti wiggle perk

    maybe like a counter to boil over

  • Paternalpark
    Paternalpark Member Posts: 438
    edited November 2023
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    I love Knockout build, very fun going against the bots that can pick each other up so fast.

    Soloq is usually easy win.

    It's not to be toxic, I just prefer not to hook if I don't have to.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
    edited November 2023
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    This is the issue though. Soloq it's an easy win. How is that fair? And it's just a lazy tactic, this is why it needs to be reworked or nerfed as this isn't a playstyle that should be encouraged. Being on the floor for 4 minutes is not in any way interesting or fun for survivors, nor is it encouraged with points, unlike moris and sacrifices, cause it meant to be a last resort, not the first thing you do in a match.

    If you think it should stay then lets introduce something for killers where they are unable to do anything for 4 minutes while survivors progress the game, then it would be fair. Although this sounds terrible, I wouldn't want that when I play killer, and I don't want knockout when I play survivor.

    And most people do it to be toxic, as you can see in chat, the first thing he said was gg ez, trying to get a reaction as he knows that was a frustrating and boring game.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,172
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    Slugging people to bleed them out is somewhat toxic and also not hooking them... The thing is even though you say you are not doing it to be toxic you cannot tell me you don't see how it still is... It is not the intention that counts but what you do... If I tbag a player for 20 minutes straight I can tell myself all day long I didn't do it to be toxic, but it is what it is.

  • caramelpudding
    caramelpudding Member Posts: 118
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    This is one of the reasons I uninstalled the game again. The past days I encountered more killers with a slug build. Dull Merchant, Slugakos and the best one was the Nurse who downed me and let the last survivor, a bot, wiggle free and though they passed me a few times the Nurse just did not hook me. Being downed, getting up only to get downed again the entire game is so much worse than tunneling.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
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    Slugging is better than hooks and allows for more chases. Bleedouts are on survivors for poor execution of altruism.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
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    In every sense as far as Im concerned.

    Every down has a minimum amount of time before a pickup, no time or effort is wasted on carrying the survivors, focus is placed on chases and not hook states, survivors get additional chances and team altruism is encouraged, removes the issue of hook deadzones, 4x the amount of time for teammates to provide aid

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
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    You simply can't coordinate in a solo q team. This is why it's a solo q issue and only affects solo q, which is why it needs a change.

  • HPhoenix
    HPhoenix Member Posts: 565
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    Not going to lie, I haven't gone against that perk in a year or two.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,542
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    You can’t be altruistic when you can’t even find your teammates. That’s not “on survivors for poor execution of altruism,” that’s just unfair. SWF players can counter it, but solo players can’t.

  • JudithMorel
    JudithMorel Member Posts: 562
    edited November 2023
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    definitely needs a rework or nerf, idc which but its one of the most poorly designed perks in the game.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
    edited November 2023
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    Yeah, this is also a very common perk to use with sadako in my experience. Last game I had with her lasted forever because she wouldn't hook anyone and was trying to condemn/bleed out while also defending the last gen, Luckily we all got out (barely as someone was 1 down away from being dead).

  • gnehehe
    gnehehe Member Posts: 510
    edited November 2023
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    You tag/block the guy and you do the same every time he enters back in your lobby. It is how it is 😎

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
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    Disagree, as a strictly solo survivor I don't find it overly difficult. Yes it presents a challenge and can buy the Killer additional time but it's nothing that can't be overcome. Just like hooks, bad survivors will struggle and Swf can almost completely ignore it.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
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  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
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    Survivors can be altruistic, they just have to get off the gens first. I find knockout entirely beneficial for slowdown because it requires survivors to look for the downed player where as hooks give the entire team info and can continue gen progress.

    Id also ask dont throw all solos under the "cant cope" blanket, plenty of us can manage.

  • TheGoodGuy
    TheGoodGuy Member Posts: 50
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    If you took away hooks for one week, Killers would make bleed out builds and Knockout would be used, but survivors would equally come up and spread some basic knowledge/strat that would spread like wildfire and help the SoloQ out. Right now, not used enough to create a common knowledge solution.

    For example, if Killer Facecamp, eventually it was understood to do gens and leave, so the Killer only gets one Kill.

    So like make some unwritten knock out rule to crawl or check the completed gen(s) when knocked out or whatever. I’m not Survivor main, so I don’t know what strat you’d make but you could do it if it was necessary lol