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I can’t thank you guys enough for the decisive buff
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Not trolling. If you honestly don't want to weaponize DS, then you should be fine if DS is nerfed so it can't be weaponized against the killer.
Because a nerf like that shouldn't affect you at all, right? If you don't want to weaponize DS, then you shouldn't even notice if DS gets nerfed so that it can't be weaponized, right?
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
Strange there are so many calls to resurrect a perk so easy to counter-play.
It will be.
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Strange there are so many calls to resurrect a perk so easy to counter-play.
Because people prefer the gameplay of that perk's counterplay.
I mean, you do bring up a valid point, because the perk is legitimately terrible from an objective point of view, since it's super easy to counterplay and is very likely to never actually fire. And it still had a super high pick rate back before it got gutted simply because it made it more likely you got to play a full match, instead of being axed quicker than the queue timer.
All the complaints about gens going so fast nowadays is partially because DS was removed and didn't get a proper replacement, so the only proper counter to tunnelling became genrushing. Prior to 6.1, 3/4 survivor perks were counter perks. Now it's genrush or chase perks.
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Go on then, suggest something. How would you nerf DS to combat this alleged problem of yours without impeding its anti-tunnel function?
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Just like how when the anti-camp mechanic was introduced killers only ever slugged and never hooked, or like how killers never hooked back before the DS nerf, right?
Face it, "killers will just do [other presumed-to-be toxic thing] so you better not give survivors anything useful" is basically always an empty threat directed at people who don't even have power over balance changes anyway
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But that was literally what happend when every killer thought that every survivor had DS. They slugged.
Not been around then? It was the change that introduced every match having the obsession sign, even when no obsession perks were in the match.
People forget this stuff really fast.
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No they didn't. Second most picked perk was Unbreakable, so they couldn't.
Not been around then? It was the change that introduced every match having the obsession sign, even when no obsession perks were in the match.
Which was specifically to deny killers the ability to tell when DS was NOT in the match, because that'd immediately cause them to tunnel. Slugging was really nowhere near the issue you are trying to portray it as.
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If slugging wasn't an issue, then why was Unbreakable the second most picked perk?
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To make it not an issue. That's the point of a counter-perk.
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So killers actually slugged a lot...
Otherwise equipping Unbreakable would be pointless.
No one equips a pointless perk.
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Fine with it coming back to 5 seconds, but needs to be deactived when touching an objective or totem and disabled at 5 gens completed. And perhaps not work with Off The Record if you've had it more than 20 seconds.
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BHVR would find a way to detect if a survivor is purposely trying to bodyblock the killer, and deactivate DS if that is happening. DS would also deactivate if the survivor is under the effects of OTR, to prevent people from stacking DS with OTR.
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They currently don't have a way to detect when a killer is locking a survivor into a corner, so what makes you think they can accurately determine when a survivor is not only bodyblocking, but bodyblocking with intent?
Honestly, OTR needs its own rework. Compared to DS, it's literally worse for both sides.
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I remember body blocking the killer a good amount with old ds.
I used to run DS+UB.
I could bodyblock the killer if my teammate had borrowed time and i could pick my self up if he would slug me.
If he picked with the 5 second stun it was a free escape from the chase versus most killers or it would take a long time to down me. Even more so with old deadhard.
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Tunneling should be nerfed as much as possible. Byproducts like using DS as a weapon are something we need to just accept. Instead, killers should be buffed in different ways so that weaponizing DS wouldn't be much of an issue anyways.
The game should move in a more healthy direction for both killer and survivor.
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Literally. It’s just a more abusable DS with mediocre anti-tunnel.
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I think 4 seconds is fine, because it is still sometimes used aggressively and 5 seconds can be a bit much. Plus at 5 seconds you would start to see DS in every single lobby again.
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Honestly I hope we do see decisive in every lobby again then maybe my team mates won’t be dead at 4 because they have been tunnelled out the sad fact is you need decisive even more now a days because no one plays for fun anymore
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This is why DS should stay nerfed. The detection mechanic doesn't exist currently. The game can tell protection hits, and as a crude workaround, DS could activate on protection hits (regardless if the survivor being bodyblocked is injured).
Maybe the game, in the future, could tell which survivor the killer is primarily chasing. Like, if a killer and 2 survivors are going in the same direction, that the game would assume the primary target is the farthest of the 2 survivors.
No. We really don't need to accept this. Let's be honest that the perk was popular because it doubled as a weapon.
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No, you can't have DS deactivate on protection hit because the tunnelled survivor has no control over the others. Any other survivor nearby could end their DS for them. Not to mention that this would make tunnelling also counter DS because a smack off-hook is an immediate protection hit.
No. We really don't need to accept this. Let's be honest that the perk was popular because it doubled as a weapon.
It did not double as a weapon post 4.6 because it cannot work as a weapon. It is literally worse for the survivors to try and use it offensively. It helps the killer win. It makes survivors lose harder. DS was popular because, surprise surprise, the thing that is continuously complained about by survivors is something survivors dislike, so they gravitate towards a perk that works to remedy that problem.
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For me, DS going back to 5 seconds is like throwing a bucket of water on the killers (It doesn't affect m1s much since against a m1 you could go the entire map with a 3 sec stun, but it now counters nurse and blight(Whose addons are getting nerfed btw, love it)), while MTF was more like a tsunami, personnaly IDC, toolboxes and map offerings on the other hand, IDK, we'll see.
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Really not a fan of any 3 Gen nerf. Have been a clean playing killer for years. Don't camp/tunnel/slug much and control my gens. Now killers are going to be punished for just playing smart. If the gens can't be held then what is there to do other than tunnel? Why go farther than 16 meters from a hook? 3 Gen isn't a problem it's the only strategy that doesn't involve either ruining the game for a survivor or playing nothing but S tier. This will break the core game and increase toxic play styles.
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I mean, yeah, you probably will have to accept this. I doubt the upcoming change is going to be a nerf to DS.
Again, it won't be a problem if they compensate killers in a more healthy way.
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The theme of the roadmap is "fixing things that both sides find frustrating", and survivors weaponizing DS was the most complained about part of the perk. It's the reason it got the conspicuous action stuff added, and it was the reason it got the 3 second nerf.
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Glad to hear this but I wanted to mention what you guys were arguing about earlier and I want to mention the fact it is disabled at endgame. If you wanna tunnel, go ahead and risk it or just do it when all the gens are done.
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I'll be happy if it's made more useful for actual anti-tunnel, it's not good enough for that in its current state and could use an improvement there. However, it needs to be in a way that doesn't make it significantly stronger for using it offensively/combining it with UB and bodyblocking the killer knowing they can't do anything about it. The 5 second stun genuinely was too punishing when that was the case. It needs to be a good anti-tunnel perk and ONLY a good anti-tunnel perk, not a "interfere with and bodyblock the killer for free when I'm not actually being tunneled" perk.
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That's wishful thinking. The road map states "rework". That means they'll change the way the perk work.
Nobody knows yet if it'll be a buff or a nerf. (Whatever their real intention here. e.g. Trickster)
What you can do is hope that whatever it will become will not be easily exploitable by good teams.
Else all the average player* will gain from it is to be slugged and bled-out most matches.
*) e.g. whoever has no clue how to use DS and just drops wherever the killers hits him
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DS being 'weaponised' wasn't complained about at all post 4.6.
DS -existing- and doing what it was supposed to do was complained about. The complaint about DS was about it being a 'second chance' perk, not about people using it offensively.
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The problem is I don't want to see a meta where everyone basically only has 3 perk slots. It would become stale and the devs do not want that either, hence why highly used perks get nerfed.
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If they're going to buff DS they can't just revert it. Old DS was horrible for weaker killers to deal with, didn't make much difference for the strongest killers and put you in the unwinnable position of either having to consciously evade a Survivor who in 90% of the cases I've ever seen deliberately got in the way during chases or eating a really long stun just because you have to. If it reset Killer powers with a charge bar (I'm looking at Blight, Nurse and Spirit in particular), 3 seconds would be fine.
Additionally, should the two best anti-tunnel mechanics (DS and OTR) be locked behind additional paywalls and a perk slot? It would be a lot better if they introduced better basekit anti-tunnel so all Survivors could benefit and not just those who have access to the strongest perks.
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i didn't really ever see that except in cases where survivors made it really obvious they had DS tbh. Like it happened but it was very rare in my games at least
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Lucky you! As stated somewhere else, Unbreakable was the second most used survivor perk... Might be a reason behind this.
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👌
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About weaponizing anti-tunnel perks, i have 2 suggestions:
- While under any Endurance effect, the survivor does not have collision with the killer. This could prevent survivor who have being just unhooked to bodyblock a killer to force them eat their Off The Record and/or Borrow Time. Also, this would prevent some killer from bodyblocking a just unhooked survivor to wait the 10s Basekit BT to down them again.
- Prevent Decisive from activating from lockers. This way, a survivor could not bodyblock, lose a health state and then go into to the locker to force DS, leaving at least the option for the killer to slug the survivor in case he/she tries to bodyblock for a friend. Of course they will use UB + DS again, but at least they are forced to use their Unbrekable in this situation.
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They really wouldn't. Even with 5s DS, it goes a little like this: Survivor has DS > Killer ignores unhooked Survivor > Killer targets unhooker > Unhooked Survivor uses DS + OTR altruistically to attempt to extend chase > Only two survivors on gens > Unhooked survivor has to mend and get healed to continue being a nuisance if they want to preserve DS > Unhooker eventually gets downed.
If survivors want to give the killer free pressure, why look a gift maurice in the mouth?
Protection hits are weird in that they're proximity based. You might not even be trying to bodyblock the killer, but because you happened to get hit after getting unhooked, that counted as a protection hit and now you don't have DS.
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those would be perfect, no collision at least during bt is a long needed addition and removing locker ds would prevent forcing ds a bit since then the other option would be getting slugged.
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How do you suggest this is done?
Say a survivor is unhooked in basement, and the killer starts blocking the stairs as the unhooked survivor runs up, waiting out the basekit BT. The survivor is technically bodyblocking the killer. If the unhooker is also trying to leave basement, then they are right nearby, so hitting the unhooked guy also counts as a "protection hit".
If you want this scenario to NOT deactivate DS (which it shouldn't, as if it did it would defeat the purpose of the perk), then you need an incredibly advanced system based on more than:
- Killer proximity to unhooked survivor
- Killer/survivor movement blocked by their hitboxes
- Unhooked survivor proximity to another survivor
- Unhooked survivor taking protection hit
I'm sure you could build a system around this, but it wouldn't be perfect and I doubt BHVR would invest the development time in something like that.
A much simpler, and more effective solution for your problem is giving DS, OTR, and basekit BT collision deactivation. So the survivor can walk through the killer, and the killer can walk through the survivor, like demanifested Sadako. Boom, no more bodyblocking. Even if the survivor starts running right behind their teammate, you run faster than them, so you can close the gap and once you're phased through them, hit the guy you're chasing. If the unhooked survivor wants to follow you around, then they will be useless and not doing anything for the team.
As for DS with OTR, proposing that it deactivates with OTR is just silly. That change hurts anti-tunnel builds unnecessarily and encourages tunneling players that use OTR.
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About "weaponizing" anti-tunnel perks. I feel like I'm just not understanding what the problem is here, exactly.
If I understand correctly, 5s DS would be a "problem" because it could be weaponized in tandem with OTR to body block and either extend a chase or stun the killer.
Now, you know this very aggressive survivor has DS because they were just recently unhooked. So, Why would you pick them up? Further, if they're doing this, that means you have two survivors not on gens. Is that not a good thing?
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You say you've been playing since 17' and you still don't get why it's a crutch and why bringing the 5s back is a bad idea?
What makes it a crutch? Let's see
Base kit BT that's synergizes with OTR (CHANCE 1)
Weather OTR is used or not and you go down DS to get free (chance 2)
Now that your free you can use DH to take another hit (chance 3)
Now let's say you didn't have OTR and the killer had no intent to tunnel so they slug you to avoid DS (practically chance 2 or 3)
If you've been playing since 17' doesn't this sound familiar?
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No need to disable the DS locker play
killers will just slug and it will be annoying so no
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What is the survivors primary objective? Generators. Now, explain to me exactly how "weaponizing" ds and otr contributes to that objective.
You have one idiot wasting time annoying the killer, not contributing to the objective, and one other person being chased. The other two survivors are doing the objective.
Why are we upset about literally free pressure?
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Bodyblocking is done to extend the chase for the survivor initially being chased. While true that its one survivor not working on gens, the impact of said bodyblock is not concrete. Sometimes it will be near pointless, and sometimes it could lead to the initial survivor reaching a strong structure/loop and wasting a lot more of the killer's time than if there was no bodyblock and they went down (also don't forget, this will also reset bloodlust.) Maps like Garden of Joy, Badham, The Game, and Haddonfield are examples of maps where it could be a pretty significant extension of the chase.
Killers who understand the chase has been extended will often try to take the downed survivor as a consolation prize, with DS then creating a lose/lose situation. It still does this even in its current form, but the survivor needs to make sure they are near a pallet or strong window before being picked up.
So yes, sometimes it is free pressure, and sometimes it is pressure lost. That all depends on how strategically the tools are used.
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Is it not, strategically, more advantageous to have as few survivors working generators as possible?
Let's say the survivor with OTR + DS weaponizes them. They get slugged. Unless they're also running Unbreakable, someone has to get off a gen to pick them up. Meanwhile, the killer still has the option of chasing the unhooker. So that's now 3 people off gens.
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You only need to get off the gen for a moment to finish their healing, assuming they were healing while down on the ground.
Again, the impact depends heavily on how much of the killer's time it wastes extending the chase.
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Well, if that the case, most of the killers would need to get HUGE buffs to compesate an abusable meta. I don't know if thats the best option, specially since survivor who don't use the meta perks would be punished.
TBH, i don't think the 3s DS is weak, its weak against the top Tier killer (S and A+). A good buff on DS would be, insteaad of increasing the stun timer, remove all the power charges from the killer and forcing it into at 5 seconds cooldown. This way the top tier killers would not have an easy time "eating" a DS and then going after their targets
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Now, explain to me exactly how "weaponizing" ds and otr contributes to that objective.
by directly hampering the killer from doing their objective? hard concept i know.
if forcing ds with lockers is removed the free pressure argument might be valid but with that in mind, not really. you can just body block and make sure the rescuer reaches to safety and hop in a locker to force ds. even if the killer hits the bt endurance they still need to wait 20 seconds right in front of the locker to make sure you bleed out in the locker; all that just to get pressure from a singular slug. meanwhile at least 2 people are on gens this whole time actually progressing their objective.
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Most of time, Decisive comes with Unbrekable, so either you leave them slugged while so he can get up soon, or you take the stun and start the chase all over again.
Its not just "two survivor not doing gens", its a very agreesive survivor denying a killer a hit or even a hook, which can be used apply pressure on the match.
The last match i had someone with a DS doing this, i was at 7 hook stages running for a Cheryl who would die on hook, then i got blocked by a Thalita with Off The Record and DS, while the other 2 people were slamming gens. Look: going for Thalita was a very dumb decision because she COULD HAVE (and INDEED HAD) antitunnel perks, which could make the chase longer than i could afford, then i went for Cheryl. But i couldn't, because Thalita had anti-tunnel perks which allowed her to freely block me without too much punishment. I DIDN'T CHOOSE TO TUNNEL, BUT I WAS PUNISHED BY ANTI-TUNNEL PERKS EITHER WAY.
Weaponized anti-tunnel perks remove the killer skills to choose the best chases and forces the killer to just tunnel - which is not always the smart choice. Weaponizing anti-tunnel perks is a big problem and i hope the devs does not ignore this issue.
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I disagree. Removing locker plays remove the ability to force the killer to eat a DS. I don't like the idea of just entering a locker to force a killer to eat a DS or just go search for someone else in the other side of the map. I think Decisive should actively punish killer who wish to hook the survivor just after being unhooked, not punish a killer for winning a chase and letting someone slugged.
A slug is a type of pressure which easily can be lost if someone is nearby or the person have Unbrekable. I don't see too much problem into this.
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DS deserves to be dead permanently. ######### that perk
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