Knockout needs a nerf. I'm over it

Options
2»

Comments

  • ironligma
    ironligma Member Posts: 119
    Options

    Heya. I think slugging is dumb. I've done it, but a whole build around it is absurd. I get slugging someone with power struggle however everyone is excessive. I will say though that hook spawns on some maps don't help. I had a game on lerys where I literally couldn't hook anyone if they were in this one area, and guess exactly where they went.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,637
    Options

    I mean it is basically what you ate supposed to do by game design...

  • Iron_Cutlass
    Iron_Cutlass Member Posts: 3,013
    Options

    Knockout does have niche application, I use it on Dredge to help deny information about where and when I down Survivors, it helps sometimes.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
    Options

    Yeah, hook spawns and perks that prevent hooks/makes you lose your down are the exception. If I have no hooks close by (whether bad hook spawn or hooks have been used up in the area) it's either slug or lose the down, so I will ofc slug, or especially with survivors forcing the Kate horse perk (the name has escaped me) on 2nd storys.

    So there are definitely situations for slugging. But setting out to do so before the match even begins and with a perk that makes it very easy is extremely sucky.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
    Options

    Yeah its fine for other uses but with its most popular use of bleeding out survivors for 4 minutes, I'm not a fan.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
    Options

    Exactly. The game has been designed around hooks and encourages the use of hooks and sacrificing over anything else like slugging to death or end game collapse death or even moris. Many more points are awarded for hooks

  • Cecaelia
    Cecaelia Member Posts: 79
    Options

    Knockout only ######### soloQ. SWF just say "I'm down at the shack, I'm down at the middle, I'm down at 2 oclock."


    SoloQ is the one that has to get off the gen and search for eons for a downed body. Plus knockout having blindness is an even bigger ######### you to soloq. Unironically it needs to be nerfed.

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,155
    edited November 2023
    Options

    the 300% bleedout speed would make this perk hands down the fastest killing perk with near zero counterplay (only ftp buckle up could counter this to some extent). Just down surv, drop them in a place where you can camp them and three gens. Easy win. If they stay, it's gonna be the three gen game after they've bled out. If they crawl away they're just dead before they can get picked, or any gen is popped.



    ____


    On the main topic. Knockout is, similar to Boil Over, a perk that's toxic by design / the only situation where it's actually useful is with toxic strategies. - As for Knockout it's also by definition "not normal gameplay". Normal gameplay is hooking survivors. A killer that only ever puts survs in the dying state is not actually playing normally. Tbh, if devs are hellbent on keeping the perk they should remove the bleedout timer entirely; that way it's at least reportable as keeping the game hostage if the killer entirely refuses to hook.

    Post edited by Halloulle on
  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
    Options

    Swf negates lots of stuff.

    That fact that survivors have to search is what makes it a good perk for me, the time off gens can be an effective replacement for regression perk. You say it ##### solos but as an avid user I have seen many survivors perform just fine. The only ones getting completely screwed are survivors making bad decisions and would probably just as equally struggle if I was hooking people.

    I completely disagree that solos are the scape goats for why this perk needs to change. Not all of us struggle when info isnt just given freely.

  • Cecaelia
    Cecaelia Member Posts: 79
    Options

    Feel free to disagree, you're entitled to your [wrong] opinion. I'm just disagreeing because of what I see with my own two eyes. People do struggle when they don't have information, that's just the basics of DBD, if you say that people do "not" struggle when they do not have information about a dangerous situation...that's just false. You need information to make informed decisions yes? That's kinda they way knowledge and game sense works? Right? Not I go into a cluttered map and I just know with no information where a 100% random person is on the map that is downed, that you cannot aura read, that you also have a blindness stack on vs someone saying in vc "I'm at the coal tower vault."


    I promise you solos are screwed, and no going "well one time in one match out of 100 a survivor picked someone up and they reset" isn't particularly valid.

  • HPhoenix
    HPhoenix Member Posts: 569
    Options

    The only thing that I been versing as of late is Corrupt, ultimate weapon, every aura reading perk known to man, a few Devour here and there and...

    But yea, you get the point. I would agree that knock Out need a nerf if killer use it on a reg.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,532
    Options

    Think you misunderstood, +300% while crawling. Not while staying still.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
    Options

    I'm not saying that no one struggles but I've seen enough players to do consistently well. This is where MMR would be playing its part and creating the difference between your experience and mine. I also didn't say survivors can do well with no information, I said not everyone is dependent on freely given information. Just because the information isn't presented to the player does it mean they can't gain that knowledge through playing the game.

    I would also state a great indicator that your opinion may just be your mmr experience is that I play stealth killers at the lowest possible level because of my playstyle. A majority of the time I'm letting survivors Escape because they don't allow their teammates to bleed out. If survivors are consistently able to provide altruism throughout the team at the lowest level against knockout I don't think it's that oppressive. Are there teams that still struggle yeah but I think you're up playing them into the majority that's just not what I see.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,635
    Options

    Even if you do find your downed teammate eventually, it makes bleedouts too easy and wastes too much time to be a fair perk imo.

    Fwiw, I don’t really have a problem with slugging in general. It is a way to exert pressure and slow down the game and I’m perfectly fine with that. It can also backfire for the killer massively. I think Knockout just makes it a little too appealing is all. I don’t think that slugging as a whole is unfair or anything.

  • Unknown2765
    Unknown2765 Member Posts: 1,962
    Options

    Basekit BT would be abused. People already use map offerings, run with boil over and run to places where they know the killer cant reach a hook, leaving the killer no option than to bleed them for 4 minutes.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
    Options

    True, nerfing/reworking the perk would be the best option.

  • Cecaelia
    Cecaelia Member Posts: 79
    Options

    It's not "free information" I do not know why you keep describing it like that, and it points towards a huge misunderstanding/lack of game knowledge. The base game gives survivors the ability to see their downed ally, it is information given to you by the devs as part of the BASE game. There's nothing "free" about it, it's intended information. Knockout removes an intended information.


    Now since we're having trouble connecting A -> B -> C I will break it down further.


    Solos: Have to spend 40+ seconds searching for someone down on the ground, sometimes they run past them due to the short range.


    SWF: do not waste that 40+ seconds searching for the body. "I'm at cow tree" tells them exactly where the downed body is, which means they pick up faster, which means that they get back on gens faster.


    Gens take 90s.


    Solos: Waste 40s+ searching for a downed body.

    SWF: might take maybe 20s to get to the body and pick it up if they are fully healed while downed.


    Now by the time a solo picks up a body, another person has probably already gone down, and that's another body you have to hunt through the entire map for. Now if its SWF, he probably just said "i'm at killers shack, killer is headed towards main." Now they have all the information they need to make an informed decision within seconds, while solos are still combing the map for the downed body; and trying to figure out which way the killer is going. Bonus points if it's a stealth killer and they have no indicator of where the killer is at, where he's looking, etc. [I'm not counting information perks atm in this calculation for the survivors.]

    Now if you break down all the time saved between SWF and SOLOS you will understand how solos are screwed with a slug build and SWF have a much better chance. Keep in mind it might take solos even longer to pick up someone since the dude that is downed is probably trying to crawl either away from the killer that is standing on their body or toward a teammate that might be running in the opposite direction. If the killer is standing on the body they probably said "killer is on my body, go do gens." While solos have to walk all the way around, find the body, see the killer standing on it, and then go and work on a gen. <- That process might take more than a minute+ worth of time, times the 3 people that might all be not doing gens to search for the other random to get that information.


    Now do you understand how much time is saved when you pit SWF vs SOLO experience vs a slug build?

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,155
    Options

    No, I did understand correctly (on the second read though ^^ first time around I did miss it).

    But let me explain a bit better what I mean: Nothing keeps a killer from picking you up and dropping you smack in the middle of a three gen or between two well progressed gens. At this point there are very few maps left where a killer can't make that distance with you wiggling free / jumping off. If you stay where you've been dropped, your team (now consisting of only three people) will have to start over in terms of gen progress - or will enevitably end up with a three gen situation (and again: by default a 3v1 three gen) - or even both; if they started working on the three gen right at the start of the match.

    If you try to crawl out of the gen zone (where the killer can camp you and the gens) you will have bled out before you've made it to a place where you're actually pickable by teamies. If a teamie still attempts to pick you up, the best case scenario would be that you get downed three seconds later and get brought back to the gen zone. The worst case scenario would be that your teamie gets downed before they can actually pick you and now the killer has two slugs they can camp along with gens.

    The only way survs could actually do something about this is with perks that a) make the pick-up near instant (and wait for an opportune moment where the killer is the furthest they tend to go before checking on their slug again) b) grant endurance. That's FTP-Buckle-Up. Especially the Buckle-Up part; if it's a regular pick-up the surv picking up would then expect to get hit while picking you up and either one of you two takes the endurance hit or, at the very least, ShiftW as far away from that area as possible while the killer counts to ten, sniffing up your butt and ready to swing.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,532
    Options

    Ahahaha, fair play that man, that's actually pretty smart... and unfortunate xD

  • kit_mason
    kit_mason Member Posts: 255
    Options

    There's a selection of perks that need flat out reworks becuase they only exist to enable unfun strategies - Knockout and Insidious are two off the top of my head

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 578
    Options

    And what exactly is stopping a solo survivor from running 'Bond' and paying attention before their teammate goes down?

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
    Options

    First, theres no disconnect or misunderstanding.

    I say free info cause thats what it is, given to survivors at no effort or exspense. Same as the hud counting gens for us, its freely provided info. The fact that its a base mechanic doesnt make a difference to me since many base factors can be augmented. You can call slugging a base machanic and there are perks which affect it on both sides. Furthermore the ability to see this intended info isnt even removed, the distance is changed.

    40s is excessive, this is when I decide the survivors are fairly bad or ignoring for gen progress. I'm seeing an average of 6-8 pickups per survivor from noobs before nearing bleedout. I pity the incompetence you are witnessing.

    You keep commenting about the time spent, but thats what I consider to be the benefit of the perk. Everything else about the perk serves little to no purpose, its the time off gens which gives the perk value.

    The emphasis you're putting on solos verse swf is what I consider an example of standard play versus comm advantages. I don't see the ease at which swf negates perks as something that should be emulated for solo play. Nor do I see the struggle of some survivors invalidate the potential for success other solos have proven capable of.

  • Cecaelia
    Cecaelia Member Posts: 79
    Options

    You don't see the struggle because you're playing at the lowest mmr, per your words. WHere sentient life is - survivor wise, they struggle, and you seem to forget that knockout applies blindness which is huge - not just off gen time. The fact that you ignored the fact it gives blindess tells me all I need to know.

  • Cecaelia
    Cecaelia Member Posts: 79
    Options
  • kit_mason
    kit_mason Member Posts: 255
    Options

    The survivor's aura isnt hidden until they go down, to a survivor running bond. A survivor goes down and if they have object permanence they can presume they're in or near the spot they went down.

    That's how it works vs Knockout's aura hiding.

  • Cecaelia
    Cecaelia Member Posts: 79
    edited November 2023
    Options

    bruh bond is 36 meters, empathy is 128


    if you want to do that you should run empathy not bond.

  • kit_mason
    kit_mason Member Posts: 255
    Options

    Didn't ask for build tips, was just answering your question.

    Which applies to Empathy too.

  • Cecaelia
    Cecaelia Member Posts: 79
    Options

    You still wouldn't really benefit if they are using a slug build that also has blindness built in.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
    Options

    I just dont view the slugged survivor's blindness as a key beneficial factor. The aura reduction is primarily what I consider the star component of the perk. Cant say blindness has ever caused me to wander to the maps edge or to avoid my teammates direction completely.

    Your jab at the mmr level seems off though. If anyone is going to be oppressed by this perk, it would be the lower levels. But just because I despise hooking, dont think I have all my killers at the lower levels. There are a select few killers I play normally with and from that I can say survivors only get better.

    And again the "dont see the struggle" comes off quite dismissive as I do play survivor more than killer and have so for some time. I find the struggles of solo play usually quite exaggerated and commonly the results of personal shortcomings or mistakes.

  • dknb
    dknb Member Posts: 139
    Options

    Slugging Chucky again

    This game is trash because of these guys

  • dknb
    dknb Member Posts: 139
    Options

    December 7th

    Slugging Wraith

    Super boring so I disconnect

  • kaoraku
    kaoraku Member Posts: 247
    Options

    I didn't find any mention in your post about how unfun is playing against for the people builds or sabo builds or bullysquads, or genrushers...

    Whats next, if killers not pick up survivor within 3 seconds then they healed to full?

    But to be honest survivors should be able to speed up bleeding out, so they can get out a match like this faster if they want to.