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The killer players are lacking in experience, therefore they are getting buffed
I apologise for the provocative titel, but i want to point out a simple fact that apparently nobody puts into account.
Killer mains are compared to survivor mains in terms of knowdledge and skill not on the same level. They cant be. At least the majority. So what do i mean by that:
Practice makes perfect!
A survivor main with 5000 hours played survivor for 5000 hours. Duh! (for simplicity reason we ignore for both sides that they also spent a little bit of time playing the other side)
A killer main with 5000 hours is a completly different thing. Many, if not the majority of players have multible or even all killers on their roster. Learning 34 different killers in 5000 hours is a completly different thing then just learning one.
A good example is a streamer named Abs0lutly T4lented (name is changed). He is overall a good killer with lots of hours (8000~) but compared to the players he sometimes faces, he looses way to often since he is rotating through all the killers constantly. If he is playing all day, he can maybe play every single killer once a day.
Therefore he wont get on the absolute top level on any killer, but stays mediocre on all of them. He is constantly complaining that it is so hard against those survives, but he does not realise that he is just not as experienced. When you have on average just 200 hours on lets say the Doctor (in a timespan of 7 years), you can not expect to win against 5000+ hours survivor mains.
On the other hand, killer mains who play only 1 killer DESTROY survivors. Even people who exclusivly playing Trapper for thousends of hours are dominating with hundreds of wins in a row. The difference really shows.
I think this should be considered to ballancing and especially to what we want for the game. It is easy to forget that survivors put a shitload of time into that one single character (every survivor is exactly the same) and whe i as a killer with the same hours playing ALL kinds of killer wont win all the time, it has a reason.
Thats it.
Kind regards
Comments
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If you want to insist that people should practice and focus on one killer to get much better, of course it can be right, but I think you should at least proof for that.
For the statement that killer would be able to outplay killer by practicing, there are some complex variants that should be considered. It is obvious that you would have better chance to achieve victory as you practice. However, it can be differed by the survivors you are dealing with. There are very good survivors who are very difficult to down even you practice a lot.
Also the killer power can matter. Playing Blight or Nurse will guarantee you to secure 4k if you practice and try hard even if you are against good survivors. But it would be impossible to get 4k against good survivors as Freddy.
Post edited by Astel on8 -
There is some validity to that claim, but it's more nuanced and complicated. All killer share a basic movement, ie at least he broad categories of 110% and 115% killers and most M1 killers play the same on the basic level. Player with 2000h in Wesker won't be a total noob when playing Pinhead, but yeah, the ins and outs of the power, all the little tricks and specialities will elude them.
I have close to 2500h in DBD and about 1800h of this must be killer, but there are certain survivors that I just can't catch no matter how much I concentrate because they run every single structure every single loop, every single pallet absolutely perfect. That's the effect OP mentioned, as there is no difference between survivors, as they all play exactly the same. And even this god players often run the absolute meta builds, adding insult to injury.
We often talk about finding the weak link in a team and Hammer that down, but that of course is subpar and unfun for the stomped inexperienced player. When all survivors are quite skilled and they all split up and priorities gens, there is very little the killer can do, wins in such situations mostly stem from overconfidence and altruism. A 1k would still be a loss for the killer, but many SWFs want a 4E, so this over commitment is why so many games sometimes flip in the late game.
I think the big problem with all this is, that we have a single blanket ruleset for all killers and survivors, no matter the skill set and level. Maybe we should try to experiment with different MMR brackets and slightly modified rules there in. Like, in low MMR, where survivors tremble before the killer as the power role, maybe they could all get a 3% haste and slightly faster vault speeds or reduced injured volume, while in high MMR, where most killers have to sweat exorbitantly just to stay afloat, things could be flipped a bit in the opposite, as the survivors are now mostly in the power role.
Some might balk at this idea of "punishing players for being good and having skill duh", but it could also be seen as leveling he playing field and a batch of honor, ie "they have to debuff me in order to give em a chance. Huh. Then come at me."
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That's an interesting observation. Though I do think it's rare for someone to play every killer equally, as I think most have a preferred one. But in general yeah, a killer main with 5k hours spread over many different killers wouldn't have the same sort of experience (and dare I say skill) that someone with 5k hours in one killer would have in that specific killer.
But some things, like game sense and map familiarity for example, would be prominent among long term players, which would help regardless of how many hours they've ultimately put into each killer. Looking at the 8k content creator you've used as an example, I'd still expect him to perform better with his 200 hour Doctor than a Doctor main with 200 hours total game time. If that makes sense. But your point still stands.
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I would argue that to a certain degree killer experience translates pretty well; mindgaming an unsafe pallet as Clown works similar to mindgaming an unsafe pallet as Trapper, for instance, and zoning a survivor into a dead zone is similar to zoning them into a part of the map that is trapped. I think the bigger problem is:
-Big name content creators have done big long win streaks back when MMR didn't exist or was more lenient, or when the game was more volatile
-Less experienced players see that and feel like they ought to be able to pull off similar win streaks, not recognizing the macro and micro mechanics involved in many of the wins and the number of attempts some of the more ridiculous streaks took (note this applies to both survivor and killer players)
-Because of negativity bias, when these players invariably fail to first-try replicate the streaks that more experienced players would grind months for, they genuinely feel as if the game is rigged against them
-People make change requests based on their incorrect impression of balance
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Oh yeah I forgot the point I was making here. I think it's not that killers lacking experience is what leads to killer buffs, I think killers have plenty experience. I think it's players in general having unrealistic expectations of their own performance and then blaming the game for not letting them reach those expectations that leads players of all sides to request silly balance changes. Killer experience translates decently so I don't think that's the issue
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I think that's kind of true, but there are rarely Killers that so fundamentally change the game that you're skills as a general Killer player wouldn't translate.
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I just realised something that counters my own logic. Strange that i have not thought about that right away.
Survivors are playing against all killers and therefore have limited hours versus every single killer.
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If you mean who I think, he is kinda bad considering the amount of hours he have played. There are other streamers with the same or less hours (albeit less famous) whose play multiple killers and are better than him.
And yes, maybe a survivor main with an amount of hourse is better than a killer with the same amount of hours, but as long as the killer know the basics, how to make mindgames and have a bit of game sense he only have to practice a bit with any new killer with the exception maybe of the more unique or hardest ones.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
There are rules against calling out specific people by name in a negative context I think. If you're going to name a person it has to be in the context of positive feedback
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Well, saying he is kinda bad is not insulting him or something. Otzdarva usually gets a bit of hate when someone post one of his videos in the forum and nobody get punished. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I am not using any more names since i got warned for name&shame. And i did not even called out a real person but rather a bot account.
Said that, there is a chance that i actually ment the person you called out.
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This is partly true but most killers have some things in common. M1 killer mind games will work on any 4.6 m/s killer, game sense carries over across all killers and sometimes even mechanical skill transfers to a degree. This is why BHVR have linked the MMR across all killers for each player. If you are a very experienced Clown main, then chances are, you'll be quite deadly with Wesker and Dredge too even if you have never played them before.
Also, survivors play against 34 killers by now and some of them have pretty low pick rates. So you could argue that it's the other way around and survivors lack practice against different killers. However, most killers are easier to play against than they are to play, which negates this a bit.
I would also argue, that you cannot really compare killer and survivor skill quite that easily. Because both roles are completely different and have little common ground.
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Ok, I've edited my first response just in case, anyway saying my opinion about the skill of a famous DBD streamer is not shaming, it is like if you get punished in a football forum because you think a football player is bad, you are not insulting anybody. xD
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There's some truth to specializing, but it mostly boils down to a player's practice and study habits. It's not a phenomenon exclusive to the killer side. If you don't focus on self-reflecting, correcting your own mistakes, fixing your mechanics, and working on your game sense, you'll never improve. It's how some people remain shockingly bad at the game with thousands of hours, and it's how some people break into the competitive scene and actually play for teams with only 1000 hours. If you put in the effort and have the humility to take repeated brutal losses against top level players, you can become a great player with relatively limited experience. I've seen people do it.
I think the community as a whole has a ton of cognitive dissonance in their approach to the game. They love winning, swear they're casual, but also think they should be on equal footing with players who take the game seriously. Something has to give somewhere.
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Don't back up now. You have sound logic in your initial post. Survivors going against the plethora of killers are still playing only a survivor which are all the same. Most tricks will work on the killer roster, and as you said, practice makes perfect.
If someone is cycling killers constantly, then no, they won't be top tier and will likely enjoy a beating from time to time. Its just the game and common sense working together. The first reply you got tried to rebuff this, and failed horribly imo. A Trapper with 5000 hours will outclass another player who cycles killers, even if they play Nurse/Blight/Etc. Not 100% of the time, but most of the time.
And if this shouldn't be the case, I invite anyone to explain the logic as to why. This isn't an attack, but an invite to conversation. :)
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The title is true as hell but i would change the killer for surv word
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If anything this proves MMR is horrible for Killers because they got to stick to one Killer or else they fall behind.
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You give example of how 5000 hour survivor should destroy any killer because of how their less experience. But SWF with 5000 hours destroys any trapper player, even best one in the world, with 10000 hours experience. Thats just ignoratio elenchi. Problem is that most killer cant win against survivor of the same leve, its a FACT. Michael, Ghost, Wraith, Trapper, Doctor, etc... they just wont win against equal SWF party.
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I have 3500 hours in dbd at the moment. 2k hours + are on pig alone. 1.5k hours are on survivor and and other killers. I think I'm fine.
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You are completly right, sadly it doesn't matter cause just because a killer with 5000 hours in one character can make the character work doesnt really matter. Because like you said most players play multiple characters and most people don't have close to that amount of hours anyway. Games are usually balanced around the average players and not the absolute top. So i dont think it should be taken into account for balancing to much can then the players that play multiple killers (wich is most players) will be in a disadvantage just because every once in a while there is a killer who has thousand of hours in one character. Point is, you're right it's kinda a skill issue but that skill cant be expected when there is such a wide roster, and i dont think the masses should be punished for a small group of players. (TBH i dont really know the ratio between the average player and the players with crazy amounts of hours in one character).
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i think it is more opposite. survivors are playing poorly so they think that their side needs buffs and the way killer are losing has no counter-play.
For example, Tru3 was playing Chucky today. He noticed that DH and Decisive strike were making him lose every single game on Chucky due to chase extension. When he tried to look for a counter to DH, He found none. He tried running Mindbreaker, Blood echo, Styptic touch, Genetic limit but he lost. None of the killer perks were effective at providing exhaust to disable DH, so he moved to 4 gen defence perks because he said that he was winning every single chase but generators were too fast.
The other aspect that tru3 talked about with Chucky is that there is no inner depth to his gameplay. For example, he tried using his stealth but cooldown and noises made it difficult to use stealth. He said that is only depth to Chucky is walk as m1 killer, let survivor drop a pallet, scamper over it, do hug tech and you get a hit with Slice & Dice.
It is not exactly that he is not a good killer. it is that there is no depth to learning said killers because he physically cannot play better. This is why he says that if he was playing killers to win, He'd play nothing but nurse. The reason being is that Nurse has highest depth in the game because your ability to land blinks influences your success on her. There is something meaningful to get good at. With Chucky, he has a cooldown and he cannot down people faster then cooldown allows. Furthermore, there is nothing meaningful to learn that going change his losses into wins. Many killer are simply statistically meant to lose due to imbalance variables of the game. The killer themselves have limited skill-ceiling and limited power-level balanced around weaker survivors. When you face better teams, it creates an imbalance game at the top because it is balanced for low-medium players over top players. That is why he does not bother to change his perk builds on any killers. he does not think any perk choice matters because if he a bad team, he'll win with 0 perks but if he faces a good team, the survivor entirely controls their ability to win. Tru3 does not believe that killers have agency in winning. He believes that killer's ability to win is solely based off the survivor skill-level.
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I will bite the bait and answer this post.
Most of the successful plays from killers come from macroplay: knowing where to go, where to go, who to chase. And this is a skill shared among all killers. Good killer players are not only those who do mindgame and know how to use the killer power, but takes the best decision in a match. This is the most decisive part of a bad or a good killer. And i know many good player with great killer macroplay.
Now, come another part: the is a "power ceilling" to every killer: you can be the best clown in the world, but if you get the best survivor in the world in a strong survivor-sided map, its almost mechanically impossible to win. The recent buffs in killer is something to make lower tier killer closer to the higher tiers, so you don't feel hopeless when playing a weak killer.
Although i think there are many bad killer players, there are also many bad survivor players, and the second group is the one mostly favored by recent mechanics.
I agree with the first part. Camping and hook grabs - some mechanics that were implemented recently - are something that very experienced survivors knew how to counter with teamplay; I see that many survivors don't know WHEN to save a fellow survivor - or they greed too much the save time, or they just save in front of the killer. These kind of survivor are those who benefits the most from the recent changes
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I haven't seen hate towards Otz, or other content creators for that matter. If there is then I imagine it gets removed. I think some people see others disagreeing with content creators as somehow being hateful, but that's not the case. Even Otz says people shouldn't take his word as gospel and they should form their own opinions. I watch a lot of content creators (even used to be a subscriber to the person you and OP are talking about) and I have no issue speaking up when I disagree with them. Especially because they absolutely have an influence on people and the feedback the devs get in turn.
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I feel like it evens out once you consider that half the time you’re playing survivor are just holding a button, running from place to place, or waiting on hook. With killer you should be in chase almost all the time.
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