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DbD's New Stealth Meta
It's funny how in modern DbD stealth has actually become somewhat of an issue. I remember back in ye olden days killer mains WANTED survivors to stealth. I'm going to explain how and why I think this is becoming a bigger issue.
This discussion started fairly recently, with the introduction of Distortion + Calm Spirit. This combo was a knee-jerk reaction from survivors to counter Ultimate Weapon. At first, many of us thought "it's not a big deal, they're running two perks just to counter one". While Ultimate Weapon itself is very strong this combo opened the gates for a new type of meta.
At first I thought people were just being dramatic. Like a Nurse or Blight main pissed about being unable to get world record any% 4k's. But I've noticed the change in playstyle, and that is the issue. This combo itself is not the problem, only what it enables. Instead of coordinating with one another, certain players are instead opting to never be seen the whole game. This is the new strategy: to hide and do gens all game.
Some people usually respond with "let people play the game how they want to!", but I honestly don't care. This is becoming an issue because it's creating a snow-ball affect. Because I have also noticed another new playstyle. One that is not only based on stealth, but able to waste time without being chased.
A combo I've been seeing recently is Iron Will + Lightweight. The entire strategy behind it is solely to run away. These players don't loop at all but waste your time by trying to catch up to them. They will literally watch you from across the map, then start running the opposite direction once they see you coming. On top of that, scratch marks are difficult to follow, and if you do get close it's hard to track them through walls when injured. It's possibly the most boring and frustrating playstyle I've ever had to play against.
This new meta isn't an issue because it's "OP" or anything. It's because it rewards players for not interacting with each other. Quite literally the definition of anti-fun. But I also don't think it's solely because of evil "sweaty toxic high mmr bully swfs". I 100% believe it's because of MMR. Please let me explain before you roll your eyes.
The thing about all of these players is they cannot run the killer at all. I don't mean that as a dig at them, but they legitimately can't. I think many of the players doing these things is solely because they can't keep up with the sudden difficulty spike after a certain point. As helpless as they claim to be, killers do have some really nasty stuff they can bring. These players are casual ones who are just trying to keep up. That's what I think at least.
Comments
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I also wanted to add that this may also be a result of survivors having less aggressive/offensive perks and tools at their disposal.
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to hide and do gens all game.
But that... that is just how I normally play the game as survivor. Always has been.
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Lowkey thought you were going to complain about Red Herring and Pebble. Which are both honestly stupid fun perks. It isn't easy to get a killer to chase a ghost, but it's so satisfying when you do.
Honestly, I'm surprised that this hasn't happened sooner. Especially since 3 of the top tier killers have powers that actively make default tracking harder.
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In old DBD, Killers wanted Survivors to use Stealth because it was the weaker option. There was no entity block on windows, and you could blend in with the dark environments mid chase even.
With the map changes butchering most maps (see Rancid Abattoir with only 2-3 pallets on the non-Killer shack 50% of the map in about half my games), Survivors want to use Stealth because chase is the weaker option. What is the new farm tent and 2 short boxes loop supposed to do against any Killer?
Plus all the stealth perks are in nerfed states (other than Lightweight), with Iron Will being worthless against headphone users, and Calm Spirit slowing actions down. Calm Spirit is sadly a required anti-sweatlord perk like Unbreakable used to be, due to Ultimate Weapon. The problem there though, is UW needs the full 4 Survs to bring CS to be properly countered.
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"This new meta isn't an issue because it's "OP" or anything. It's because it rewards players for not interacting with each other. Quite literally the definition of anti-fun."
I wonder myself too if killers ask themselves if the survivor they are tunnelling and killing at 5 gens is having fun.
If killers wants to win using 4 regression perks, tunnelling, and sweating as if they were playing the finals, I think its safe to say survivors can play as stealthy as they want.
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This is the consequence of a perk like UW needing a perk to counter it. This along with the MFT nerf has caused a big shift in the meta. In my matches over the past few weeks I have noticed less survivors trying to chase and stealth instead. When UW probably gets nerfed around June then I'm sure calm spirit will disapear.
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Opposite extreme? Its the most common thing nowadays to play in this way, tunnel out a survivor at 5 gens, sooner if possible, If I could tunnel them out of the lobby I sure would do it. And running 4 regressions perks as well, so every killer plays the same way, why is it a problem when a survivor tries to play differently? Not gen rushing, not being toxic, etc, just playing stealthy. Just think it for a moment and tell me its not hypocrite to say that.
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I was very skeptical for the first couple of paragraphs- but I do think you're spot on:
"This new meta isn't an issue because it's "OP" or anything. It's because it rewards players for not interacting with each other. Quite literally the definition of anti-fun. But I also don't think it's solely because of evil "sweaty toxic high mmr bully swfs". I 100% believe it's because of MMR. Please let me explain before you roll your eyes.
The thing about all of these players is they cannot run the killer at all. I don't mean that as a dig at them, but they legitimately can't. I think many of the players doing these things is solely because they can't keep up with the sudden difficulty spike after a certain point. As helpless as they claim to be, killers do have some really nasty stuff they can bring. These players are casual ones who are just trying to keep up. That's what I think at least."
I find myself in that position when I play with my turned-sweatlord-comp group I used to play with a lot. That I'm not a complete potato is something I get reminded of when I play with other people who are way more on the casual side. - But when I play with them it's distortion and then do gens strategically while avoiding the killer and not being a burden - and going for unhooks/resets. I do waste the killer's time; failing a skillcheck intentionally and having them go on a fool's errand, play hide and seek around a tile. I'm usually not two tapped but using chase to buy time is definitely not what I should do if I want to avoid being a burden.
Idk, I just wanna hang out with friends playing a game without getting yelled at and everyone being passed at me. Distortion and a more stealth focused approach (/attempting to stealth) makes that possible.
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I would be more inclined to consider nerfs to stealth perks after UW gets its nerf and something happens to hard tunneling. In the meantime, stealth is the most effective counter to tunneling and needs to stay. Once these changes happen, stealth will probably fall out of the meta anyways, and it would be a shame to remove more player agency and force everyone to play the same way.
Additionally, your complaints about Iron Will and Lightweight seem less about the perks and stealth and more about shift W gameplay, which is a separate issue.
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Running 4 regression perks is a consequence of the inherent flaws in gameplay.
There isn't really much incentive to not run regression when it is what has the most tangible effects on game out come regardless of playstyle, skill level, or killer. Survivors need an overhaul to their objective to make it more dynamic which would naturally increase the amount of time it takes to get done. That would decrease the value of running a ton of regression when done along side target reductions to the actual amount of regression perks.
There really isn't a reason to stealth as hard as some survivors do to the point of non interaction or even worse actively harming their own teammates, but it isn't like this is a new issue. It's been happening in cycles for the lifespan of the game where survivors devolve into hyper immersion for a number of reasons and the games are generally just less enjoyable for it. The game's also less enjoyable if you're tunneling from second 1, at least to me anyway though at the very least you're engaged with the game in a somewhat interesting way.
Stealth is a great way to play survivor and personally I prefer it whenever I did play survivor, but I do not understand what folks gain from hyper stealthing. Even back in the old days of early DBD never saw the point in trying to totally vanish all game.
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I have noticed an increase in the amount of team mates using Distortion, Iron Will, and Lightweight, but I can't say that it's made them play any worse than usual. I had a game yesterday where all 3 of my team mates died and I saw in postgame they all had Distortion. So I was the only one the killer could see all game (he left me alone after 2 hooking me, pretty sure that's why). I just had a game now where the killer 2 hooked everyone before going for kills and the only person to die before we popped the last gen had Distortion and Iron Will. The aforementioned killers were a Wesker and a Wraith. I do believe most killers are capable of working around these perks. At least in my experience. The team mates who are useless tend to bring perks like Left Behind or Self Care more than anything.
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I fail to see how most maps are now butchered? In what universe? They still have enough pallets and windows for survivors to use, that's for sure.
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I love those survivors that bring a stealth builds and pair it up with the most neon flashy bright cosmetic in the store lmao priceless 🤣
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stealth playstyle is really boring and doing it excessively gets teams killed more often than not but it's valid and people can play however they want at the end of the day. the thing is you can get distortion stacks for... just existing and that's an issue. it should regenerate tokens for getting chased and doing gens; being a human useful teammate.
Post edited by NerfDHalready on1 -
Do you see the irony though that by using stealth perks you are basically denying the killer tracking perks? So all he has left is regression and chase perks, and since chase perks are weaker and tend to not be viable on all killers they will opt for regression? So by using stealth you're basically making killers run 4 regression perks? I used to run BBQ on almost every killer for about 4 years now, never changed it but a few weeks ago I never saw an aura on it there were ten games in a row and I did not get a single aura so I changed it for something else and the lobbies still have 1-3 distortion/calm spirits every single game... Can you really blame people for not bringing tracking perks?
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I do think a perk like distortion does need looking at. It is not overpowered but it does let one hide much more easily and encourages it. Mainly though it kills certain fun builds, since you cannot bring heavy aura builds etc because a couple of distortions will completely destroy you and that does suck. So you are basically left with running gen perks etc because well what else are you going to run since this perk completely wrecks tracking perks?
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When i play with some friends, they often run Calm and Distortion for a very simple reason: They dont like to get found first and then tunneled out of the game.
You say this creates non interactive scenarios, but killer first hand started this by tunneling. So survivors start to adapt, especially those who are not familiar with chase. Cause and effect.
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I don't know what they were thinking with ultimate weapon.
As a hardcore whispers addict, someone that runs whispers on every single killer no matter what, UW is only tracking perk that has ever changed that. Because it is so free. It's an on demand doctor bomb.
I don't how anyone can complain about made for this being too much for too little and look at this and say it's fine.
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Yep, farm maps spawning logic certainly not changed for the worse. A literal triangle of gens and no pallet or window within that triangle. Nope, perfectly fine map design right here. /s
This was just one particularly egregious example. Nearly every Rancid Abattoir is pretty much this bad by default. So you ask which universe? This one. I guess you must play 1 match a month to not see this butchering of maps.
Also the majority of newer maps don't even place usable windows. Near every window on Toba's Landing and Nostromo Wreckage are as useful as the window near the one exit gate on The Game. It seems we either get the equivalent of Z-wall windows, or triple vault windows, and nothing in-between. The triple vault equivalent windows eventually get fixed, but the Z-wall equivalent windows are left to fester.
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And then the killer brings only Gen regression because his tracking gets shut down so games take ages and he still tunnels because he cannot find anyone else because they are all hiding... So either you present yourself as a target or he goes for whoever he can find...
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It is only information, it does not make your chase easier, however made for this made your chases easier and made some tiles that are usually unsafe or mindgameable into a safer version.
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Not all survivors are able to sustain a decent chase, especially if they have become extremely disadvantaged over time due to the famous 'map balancing', so I don't blame them for wanting to be more stealthy and just do their main objective.
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That's the problem when BHVR try to balance maps. Some parts become so incredibly safe that these resources could last for 5 more games and others become dead zones right off the bat. It's why Rotten Fields and Torment Creek are the only Coldwinds I still like to play from time to time.
Rotten Fields has some parts that are a bit weaker but no "Hehehe, you like resources? Well, better make your way across the map towards your endless pallet supply." mentality and Torment Creek only has 1 gen in a consistent dead zone that you can play around.
It's not fun when the killer cannot get a hit because there are still 50 pallets left and it's not fun when the killer gets free hits because there are no resources either.
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Which maps have turned that killer sided besides cowshed and abatoir with the map balancing? You cannot seriously tell me that maps being as busted as old cowshed or borgo used to be were that much better for survivors getting better at looping? If you have 20 connected safe pallets being that close and interconnect able you don't learn looping. The map balancing should aim towards balanced maps that around coal tower strength... Around 15 pallets decent windows and pallets and so on.
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Thats nothing new. Those are pretty old tactics. Or does no one remember Ninja Claudettes with darkest Moonlight offerings?
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Blendette PTSD. The random bush jumpscares, bro.
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Rancid Arbattoir is the only map I can think of that spawns too few pallets. All the other maps that were changed still spawn more than enough windows and pallets. I can't think of any other map that has been butchered.
Also, in my experience Nostromo Wreckage and Toba Landing also still spawn more than enough usable windows, that's for sure. They do also spawn a fair amount of weak windows, that's true, but there are enough good windows as well.
I have been playing a lot of DBD recently, and have not seen any map butchered in any way, except maybe for Rancid, admittedily, and even that map can be rng based. But saying that Rancid only spawns with 2-3 pallets is such an exaggeration as well.
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Playing Devil's Advocate here, but I have a feeling the stealthier playstyle is getting popularity as a result of tunneling becoming quite prevelant tbh. We all know its effective, going for an unhooked player is 1 less health state you have to chew through, and creates a lot of pressure,and more importantly is someone you already know you can catch... so that's just logical.
Thing is, no one wants to be tunneled out of the game, so by cause and effect, no one wants to be found... OTR is OK against it, Dead Hard is OK/meh, DS is kinda poo, and basically any other options are meh to bad.
I know I myself start off with the intent of playing normally... but eventually I'll hit a spate of being tunneled, and I'll start looking at stealth perks and anti-tunnel perks, and hide a lot to prevent it.
The truth is stealth has to stay a part of the game, cause if you get put on Death Hook early... you must remain hidden basically from that point on... because otherwise the Killer will kill you on sight. Being alive and not doing much is better than bring dead and doing literally nothing...
I'm not condemning Killers really... but it's super unfun for the survivor being tunneled... so is it a wonder a lot of Survivor's don't want to risk engaging with the killer?
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I bet I can still do it.
It will be hard because of those garbage reworked maps, but I think I can still pull that off. I was a relatively good Blendette.
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Some points real quick.
~This is the new strategy: to hide and do gens all game.
Yes and No. No, its not 'new'. This is literally how survivor gameplay goes. Chases aren't required as that's something 'forced' on the survivor by the killer. We are not going to run around if you're not going to chase us. If the TR starts to grow, then we know you're coming. Probably going to hide now.
I can't believe this is being complained about and spun to be something evil or even mildly toxic.
~The entire strategy behind it is solely to run away.
Well yes, that would be what we do when you force us to run. And that combo sounds pretty sweet tbh. Two perks to make chases a bit easier to lose the killer? Pretty balanced trade off since it still requires the killer to be 'lost.' Maybe you dislike you have to work a lil harder to chase them instead of just following the red dots blindly?
Again, this is incredible. Just because you find this playstyle boring and frustrating, you pop on the forums and try to demonize it. As a fellow killer, this is entitlement to the max.
~It's because it rewards players for not interacting with each other.
Quite literally the definition of anti-fun.Who's definition exactly? But not going there, i hate that sort of reply lol.
I think we agree this doesn't really affect SWFS. Naturally they're gonna interact in their games. So we'll stick to Solo'Q.
Solo Q needs this sort of thing sometimes. With 1st hook sacs and tunneling meta, losing the killer and just not being seen to begin with is required. If you have issues with this, I'd love to hear them. Without bias, please.
These things are my thoughts on solely what you've said, and in point to discuss. Not flaming or trolling, but your reasons really sound like they originate from a string of bad games. Looking forward to discussing! :)
Edit: Also, noted he hasn't posted a single response yet. Hope thats just RL scheduling.
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Yeah, i've been facing a lot more of stealth survivors recently, specially since the 6.1.0 patch. Now, after the MFT nerf, the amount of survivors running Sprint Burst, Distortion, Deja Vu + another perk has increased a lot too. They don't do any noise, pre-leave when hear the terror radious and do gens very fast with Deja Vu + Toolboxes. Its the most boring thing in the game but its fair.
Is this a issue? Although its very boring to face, i don't think its a problem. I'm changing my build to have at least one info perk, so i can have a chance to catch those little rats. Maybe that the reason they've implemented Ultimate Weapon (although i understand this perk needs some adjustments)
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So survivors were too strong in chase so they nerfed MfT
Gens were too fast so they nerfed Prove Thyself
Survivors were healing too effectually so they nerfed CoH
Now we're complaining about stealth perks
What exactly are survivors supposed to run? Like are people not gonna be happy until we're all running useless meme BS like scene partner and pebble?
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Stealth is really good in some cases
It can be such a giant time waste that it can make the killer lose the game
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I don't see a problem with it, I just find it boring. If survivors are happy with getting their escape from games with no interaction with the killer, that's up to them. As far as I'm concerned, it's not what I'm looking for and I'd rather uninstall the game than play like this.
It only becomes really annoying when several players take that route and give up, turning it into a competition to see who can get the hatch.
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This isn’t a new strategy. The only difference is the perks being used. A long time ago, it was perks like spine chill and iron will. Then after distortion got super buffed, people changed to that. And there have always been many people that used voice comms to tell each other where the killer is, to make it easier to hide from the killer.
We have so many killer strategies that are considered “unhealthy”, that it’s about time that a survivor strategy be considered “unhealthy”, and excessive hiding should be nerfed.
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Except this isnt unhealthy. At all. Its literally what survivors are supposed to do. Even if one is great in chases, it is more beneficial to hide and wait for the killer to leave in order to hop back on that gen.
And bringing comms into an argument does nothing. It will always skew balance. Its a non-issue.
If a survivor is hiding to the point of not even hook rescuing, or touching gens, but ONLY hiding, then yeah. That is stupid wrong and very bad on that player. Im sure on this everyone can agree. Just sounds like its all being lumped in together now. That's not a fair bowl of chili.
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I think it’s because of the complete meta shift and how most of the original survivor “go-to” perks have been gutted.
Look at it like this: back when the meta was DS, DH, BT, and either UB/Adrenaline, even weaker survivors had crutch perks to waste the killers time. What I mean by this is that survivors with little-to-no chase skills were able to still play aggressively with these perks, and even though they couldn’t loop, were still able to waste time. Remember when survivors used to flashlight click/fast vault to get your attention? Sure, it still happens but nowhere near as much as it did.
This is simply because you can’t be carried by perks alone now; skill and map/tile knowledge is a must if you want to be decent at chases/wasting killer time. Since the meta was gutted, a weak survivor is now far, far more vulnerable than they were back in those days.
Stealth is certainly becoming more popular as it’s both easier to waste the killers time without the pressure of chase, and equally, tunnelling is by far the new killer meta so survivors are trying to avoid being the chosen one. I think this isn’t helped by the fact that the two, so-called “anti-tunnelling” perks aren’t too great. DS is useless, and whilst OTR is good on paper, a lot of killers just eat the endurance hit early on so its secondary effects are pretty useless if you’re engaged in chase anyway.
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It doesn't matter what is more beneficial. Many killer strategies are beneficial to the killer, yet they still get nerfs to them.
And stealth isn't "an evolving strategy". People have been doing this back before spine chill and calm spirit got nerfed. In fact, some people were doing this so much with spine chill and calm spirit, that both of those perks got nerfed in the 1st meta shakeup.
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To be clear I didn't say it spawns with 2-3 pallet in total. I said it spawns 2-3 pallets on the opposite side of shack (most of the time). My most common spawns are the Harvester (no pallet), the Jungle Gym in the corner's pallet (if it isn't an L-T wall), a tent pallet somewhere, and if you are lucky a circular hay pallet (as opposed to the long H hay pallet) on the opposite side of the Harvester from the Jungle Gym. So I guess that's more accurately 1-3 pallets. Also I don't know what is with my luck on that map, but I nearly always get a hill on that side of the map (as both Killer and Surv), which does nothing for Survivors other than hinder unhook attempts.
As far as Nostromo and Toba they mostly get the new Jungle Gyms, which are weak at best, or confusing and free Killer hits at worse. I think they often spawn pallets and windows on the same side of the loop, so that severely limits their usefulness, and leaves the opposite side as a complete deadzone mid loop. Even Nostromo's unique structures are basically a free hit for Killer. The secret room window is a free hit, the middle side window is a delayed hit (since they can't reach another loop or go back up to the window due to the stagger), the main pallet only prevents a hit with a stun same as both side pallets (so they only have value standing and faking a drop), and the window near the back gen is essentially a z-wall window. The small crashed ship has only one of those stun only pallets (no windows), but it is even less value as you have to approach from the back end to allow for the stun to get you to another loop. The main strength of Nostromo and Toba is how easy it is to hide, because no pallets or windows provide value.
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I kinda agree. I don’t mind playing against stealth gamers as killer but having them as a teammate is annoying. The amount of times I’ve been left on hook by Distortion users is insane.
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Thats great!
This is still just the next thing to complain about because there isn't much to complain about right now. This is STILL just complaining that survivors are playing the game. This is STILL ridiculous.
It doesn't matter what is more beneficial... wow. Then tell the tunneling meta to knock it off. They won't, because its the most beneficial method. This stealth thing isn't a meta, OP just called it that. And even if it did become 'the way', its literally the game. Its literally the game.
Stop hiding survivors. Just line up or they'll go to the forums!
Edit: OP still hasnt responded to anything. We were def trolled and took the bait lol
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Whenever someone complains about camping, tunneling, slugging, or 3 gens... can you tell those people "This is STILL just complaining that killers are playing the game. Its literally the game"?
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I completely agree. UW is super busted but i dont want that to become the topic of the discussion.
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I’m not trolling just busy with my life outside of dbd lol.
You’re missing the entire point of this. It’s not about the tunneling or any of that. The message I was trying to get across is new players cannot keep up. Which is why they're beginning a new strategy of not interacting with the killer. Stealth itself isn't horrible and is sometimes smarter than taking chase. Its an issue when only half of the team is actually present through the match. It hinders the fun of survivor gameplay as well since the killer is only going to go for the ones they can find. Which makes tunneling worse since Leon is blowing up gens across the map and hiding from the terror radius.
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I completely agree. They don’t have as many aggressive options now so they've become more passive. This is the hard part of balancing this game. They've fixed the issue of good survivors using these perks but now the majority of casual players suffer. Especially against some of the stronger killer builds/add-ons.
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Until someone actually falls for Pebble. Then it'll be omgwtf overpowered and decried as 'UnCoUnTeRaBLe.
There's only two options for survivors for some people, either: survivors start out on hook already at match start, or survivors must be forced to stand afk in plain sight near gens (but without being able to touch those gens, oh no) until the killer has time to deal with then individually.
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Fair enough. You might be unlucky with the RNG on Rancid, but I do agree that map does spawn too few pallets on average.
As far as Nostromo and Toba goes, I just can't share those viewpoints. I do get that those maps spawn with some tiles that are weak, but I also always see enough tiles that survivors can work well with. I definitely wouldn't call all the main tiles of that map weak in any way, especially the jungle jyms, even if they do weirdly spawn the pallet and window on the same side. In fact, there is one tile unique to Nostromo that can spawn a pretty nasty window.
The pallet in the main building is also very strong in my experience, never once did I need a stun to get usage out of that pallet.
When it comes to safety, Toba and Nostromo are on the lower end of maps, but that is needed, considering how fast gens can still go. Survivors shouldn't be safe at a bunch of tiles where the killer is forced to break pallets and that's it. That's why maps like Badham Preschool are so problematic.
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Sure! I'm under the assumption these play styles will never change on either side. So I just defend things that sound ludicrous to me, such as telling survivors not to hide or run. I know this is paraphrasing the whole conversation, but it seems to be what happens on these forums.
So yes, Ill happily jump on that train lol.
Apologies, I wasn't meaning to offend with the IRL time stuff Hope all is well! :)
But onwards! No point missed. I understood your initial post and simply disagree with it. Your complaints were of the playstyle and now its about the new players.
It is not on me or you to worry about the new players experience. You saw just now all the things they will run into:
"Camping, tunneling, slugging, or 3 gens." They toss it around like its something to use as a weapon. But regardless, this is will be their biggest incentive to do exactly what you are complaining about: Stealth.
So @Coffeecrashing and others can slap those words around like a stick all he wants. It's driving this play style more for the new players than anything.
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There is a difference between hiding, and excessively hiding. Just like there is a difference between facecamping and proxy camping. And just like there is a difference between defending generators, and aggressively defending a 3 gen the entire game.
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Agreed. Wont catch me debating that. I'm stating your weaponizing of "Tunneling, camping, 3 genning, and slugging' is the sole reason the topic of this thread is happening. Killers are perpetuating what OP is talking about in this thread.
There is a time for tunneling, camping, etc. There is. Its when this is solely what the killer does from the start that makes it disagreeable. Tunneling at 5 gens is not the same as tunneling when its clear the Survivors are outpacing you. Im sure we agree on these points, yes?
Anyway, I hope you get where Im coming from. If not, I think I'll bow out. Its either hopeless or you choose not to state your understanding.
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