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So new players are basically doomed?

Since they removed stranger things perks how will killers slow generators or chase, or survivors unhooking or healing?

Beginners are pretty much doomed. They have no standard perks whatsoever.

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Comments

  • Pluto_1
    Pluto_1 Member Posts: 337

    It's all about the Benjamins.

  • Cyber686
    Cyber686 Member Posts: 64

    this game is pay to win after all what do you expect? XD

  • ShinobuSK
    ShinobuSK Member Posts: 5,279

    Lmao

  • tjt85
    tjt85 Member Posts: 988
    edited December 2023

    Surge was the only free gen regression perk and is great on Wraith and Trapper. Fearmonger is pretty strong too, especially against other beginner players who favour the aura perks.

    Better Together is great for letting other newbies find the gen you're working on (especially important on those confusing indoor maps). Fixated is great for teaching you about the scratch marks mechanic. Babysitter is a decent anti-tunneling perk. And the healing perks are invaluable because getting a heal from your teammates off hook is unlikely.

    My current Survivor build is 100% free perks and I have 800+ hours in the game, so no it's not a terrible loss. But it does significantly reduce the number of decent perks for new players to start out with (especially for new Killers).

    I think BHVR should just make Spark of Madness or Curtain Call part of the base game for everyone. Would make getting started a bit easier for new players, imho. And think of all the extra Feng skins they would sell.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,437
    edited December 2023

    When I was reading OP I thought they were talking surv perks until I read it again (Just now having my coffee). New killers will take a small hit with Surge and Minbreaker going behind the paywall, as they are some of the better free perks. I used MB often just for the exhaustion effect. Not having quick access to Surge (and it's synergy with another general perk Sloppy) is also something they will have missed. I don't use it often due to being screwed by RNG Gen spawns in the past, but I know it has appeal to others.

    Not a fatal blow, just adapt and grind it out as always, but def a void in solid utility/gen defense perks since they're taken out of the free rotation.

    If I were a new killer starting today and doing F2P, i'd probably still unlock Nurse and then Billy's perks first and save up shards for either Artist or Plague for a gen defense ASAP. Probably Artist for PR over Corrupt, plus Penti, but that's just me. Both are great at what they do.

  • FFirebrandd
    FFirebrandd Member Posts: 2,446
    edited December 2023

    Try a large hit. Surge/Jolt is a really good perk assuming you're on a M1 Killer. Meanwhile the next best regression perks available for free are Huntress Lullaby and Thana... which are pretty terrible and requires new players to prestige their Huntress/Nurse to use them on anyone else. AND using Thrill of the Hunt to protect Lullaby doesn't even really work anymore because they binned the notification part of it.

    It's bad. It's real bad.

    Edit: Actually with how bad Thana and Lullaby are now... Unnerving Presence might actually be a better option. Which is not something I thought I'd ever say.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,437
    edited December 2023

    Regardless, considering these perks weren't originally released for free and were only free for 2 years out of the 7 going on 8 years of the game's life I think killers will be okay at the end of the day. Anyone who needs them has them already, and newer players can always buy the chapter if they fear the perks are that important for their gameplay.

    Edit: yeah I used to recommend Huntress either 2nd or 3rd in the past for Lullaby, but it's not as good anymore as it once was. Trapper has always had good perks for starting out, i'd just grab them later on. With him and Artist you have Agitation + PR which is good combo.

    With Unnverving Presence, if you get him and Doc you could always do Unnerving Presence + Distressing (Flex) + OC (Flex MS) +Slobby 3 gen lockdown on Doc. That's a pretty solid build on him.

    Post edited by Nun_So_Vile on
  • CorvusCorax86
    CorvusCorax86 Member Posts: 1,072

    They are not "doomed" but as newcomers they have a lot to learn.

    Base content could include the first 10 chapters so that people can have more characters / perks to choose from. Not sure why they don't do this since cosmetics are still being purchased.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,884

    Beginners have never been in a good spot when it comes to DBD. The game is fairly complex and a lot of mechanics aren't all that intuitive. This change doesn't make it that much worse for survivors because these perks weren't used anyway. For killers it sucks that Surge is behind a pay wall again but we somehow managed in the past, so I don't think it's that big of a deal either.

    It would be nice to see some updates to the tutorial though, so new players have a better grasp of what actually goes on in the game.

  • Mat_Sella
    Mat_Sella Member Posts: 3,557

    I survived just fine in 2017 when the grind was 5x the amount it is now with a vastly shorter perk selection.

    New Players just need to persevere.

  • LordGlint
    LordGlint Member Posts: 8,684

    In all fairness, the ST perks were general perks. Unlockables require you to P1 a character. Jolt for example was the only gen slowdown general perk. If you look at the list of general perks, it's kinda bare.

  • LordGlint
    LordGlint Member Posts: 8,684

    Would be nice to see some changes to the general perks in general. Either add more or update them. Most of them are absolutely useless, and when you think about various perk types... it's no wonder newbies flock to NOED. NOED and Unrelenting are literally the ONLY chase perks.

  • pigslittlepet
    pigslittlepet Member Posts: 483

    People survived and learned this game for a long time before those perks went basekit and will continue to do so now that they aren't. Like with all things dbd we adapt and move on.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,701

    New players are fine.

    There is plenty you can do with base teachable perks combined with general perks.

    It is more than enough to carry you through your first trials, before you can grind everything.

  • Rickprado
    Rickprado Member Posts: 564

    I wish Behaviour added more common perks for killer and survivor (useful ones). Its sad for newer players that so many interesting perks are hid behind a paywall.

    Also, Shrine of Secrets needs to change. Maybe the could make it so it provide 16 perks per week, 4 of them being licensed perks.

  • Marc_123
    Marc_123 Member Posts: 3,687

    I think they should make all original Base perks free at Tier 1 for all new players at this point.

    If you buy this game and have to start fresh right now the grind is - even with the rework - insane imo.

  • tjt85
    tjt85 Member Posts: 988

    I prefer other gen perks for my M2 Killers, but Surge is honestly the only regression I've ever needed on my M1 Killers. Unless they nerf it, I can't see myself ever using anything else. I think it's a huge loss for new Killers to see it leave the pool of general perks. Especially since there are plenty of decent free gen doing perks available to all new Survivors (Prove, Streetwise, Deja Vu, Resilience).

    Killers will find they will very quickly out grow the usefulness of Unnerving Presence and Huntress Lullaby. I know I was very quickly going up against well equipped Survivors not long after I started playing the game earlier this year. The perks available to new Killers now are not good.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,959

    No players need gen regression perks, but new players 'need' them the least. They aren't at the point where survivors are taking long enough in chase or sticking to generators enough for regression to even do that much for them, at least when it comes to genuine newbies vs newbies games.

    Also, a lot of the base perks are perfectly useful for beginners, including the base teachables. They've got tracking perks galore, a few utility perks, a few chase perks... basically all they don't have is regression, which isn't that big of a deal for new players.

    In fact, I'd argue learning to play without regression is probably better for new players. They might learn how to actually get work done with good play instead of relying on perks.

    Still, it does suck to lose a few utility perks, especially on the survivor side. Those perks were useful, especially for newer players, and losing them is a bit of a shame. Not "basically doomed" by a huge margin, but it is a shame.

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 5,347

    Survivors are still in a good place, even if we just take into account the general Perks and 4 first Survivors' Perks. Perks such as "We'll Make It", "No One Left Behind", "Empathy", "Sprint Burst" and some others will all still be very useful with getting unhooks and heals in.

    Killers may have a tougher time with it, but it's still very possible to get 4k without gen regression Perks, especially early on. Although the selection isn't great, there are some possibilities such as "Brutal Strength" and "Thanatophobia" (if you include Nurse). However, the best gen regression beginner Killers can have is accessible without any Perks and that's getting Survivors on hooks and injured. That alone will slow them down.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,437
    edited December 2023


    I agree and is a shame to lose them from that category. ST perks are a special case of their own since they've been both (at least in my time) and it's the only licensed chapter we've lost and had perks on both sides go from Unlockables -> General -> back to Unlockables. Which, may very well be the precedent we see going forward if that situation were to happen again down the line with another license.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,482
    edited December 2023

    Where they doomed before the removal of stranger things? Maybe yes?

    Dbds basekit has useful but relatively weak killer perks.

    Adding one or two Gen related perks to the base perk pool would do wonders i feel.

  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 2,959

    Newbie killer build:

    • Thrill of the Hunt
    • Spies from the Shadows
    • Whispers
    • Shattered Hope

  • Xendritch
    Xendritch Member Posts: 1,842

    Surge is the most mid gen regression perk that exists and is extremely map dependent and mindbreaker is honestly a survivor perk if they're running sprint burst, I'd never run it.

    I'd argue sloppy is a more powerful slowdown perk and is a free perk. Like if we're talking bottom of the barrel refuse to spend even $5 on another killer completely F2P you can still slap Sloppy/NOED/Nurses Calling/Tinkerer on Wraith and I don't think that'd be the worst build in the world.

  • Krazzik
    Krazzik Member Posts: 2,475

    I mean the Stranger Things perks being 'free' was nice, but none of them were game changing.

    Inner Healing was the only notable survivor perk and it's hardly meta in any way. Survivors also get access to some amazingly-strong perks through free characters. Adren, Sprint Burst, even Bond are solid perks that survivors get easy access to.

    Killers do have it rougher since they don't have as many good perks to unlock from free killers, so rely more on universal perks, and Jolt is a rough loss for m1 killers. There aren't really any good slowdown perks that new players get access to, and Jolt is a really good one, but I still don't think it's gonna suddenly make newer killer unplayable. Especially because at low MMR, where new players will be, it's heavily killer-sided already.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Killers will learn to pressure gens effectively and survivors to evade the killer and escape effectively.

    Like they did before those perks even existed.

    Oh wait learning is hard can BHVR just make mechanics so I don’t have to learn? My personal improvement is the responsibility of others didn’t you know.

    Maybe they can just get their parents to do it for them, like everything else in life? Mummy!!! The other kids aren’t letting me win!!!

  • tjt85
    tjt85 Member Posts: 988

    I recently started a new account on the Switch and within a handful of 3K and 4K games, I was already facing the kinds of teams that I would normally get on my 700+ hour PC account. Except this time I had no decent perks unlocked. Perks do a lot of heavy lifting in this game, whatever your MMR.

    I dunno, maybe I got hit with a Smurf check. But I think you guys are underestimating how rough it can be for new Killer players when they first start playing and have even the smallest amount of success.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,489

    That's a pretty bold and farfetched claim; I would say that DBD is about as fair and accessible as possible in this regard. A lot of survivor staples or viable perks, even mega picks, are either free (DH, SB, Unbreakable, Iron Will) and others are bundled with OG characters, that can be grinded for with Shards... a slow work, but it will keep you busy for 600h+ Feng, Kate, Gabriel or even Jeff are great early picks that will yield you great perks for your first couple of thousand Shards.

    Very good assessment. The only thing I would want to add is anecdotally: when I tried to do the "Tools of the Trade" achievement (achieve 5x merciless victory rating by only using basic killer perks), I was heavily carried by mind breaker / claustrophobia and Surge/Jolt, because here were so little good killer perks in the basic pool.

    Back then you needed a night perfect game, nowadays you just need to kill all 4 survivor, so you can occasionally stumble into a winning match, but 2ys back it was pretty rough.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,701

    Didn't Steam just give you the achievement?

    Tools of the Trade was retroactively given to people who had already done the required 5 trials before the achievement was introduced to the game.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,489

    I joined DBD as sort of a FOMO move in November '21, when I heared that the Stranger Things chapter would be leaving and I thought "come on, just buy it and give it a try and maybe you can becomr a Demogorgon main." And the rest is history.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,701

    Ah, got it!

    I think you have a great understanding of the game, honestly thought you had been around for much longer.

    I joined back in 2018, because a friend recommended the game. The rest is a history of loving a game and watching it slowly become something I dislike.

  • HamsterEnjoyer
    HamsterEnjoyer Member Posts: 765
    edited December 2023

    Everyone here is being absolutely delusional for thinking beginners have any good perks outside of the ST perks lol. "Why would beginners struggle without good perks like Surge, Inner Strength, and renewal when they have perks like spine chill, premonition, and this is not happening!"


    Like do you guys not remember when we were new and there was little to nothing for survivors to use? Because I'll tell you I recently switched to PC and its been hell, I don't even want to play survivor because I can't really play my mains (Maria, Ada, Yun-Jin, and Kate) Because amongst them theres no real good perks besides Kate's and thats a huge problem. I would have to buy at least like 5-6 survivors and level them all up to P1 just to get a perk I want or that is reletively good, and thats a problem they don't want to admit :/


    BHVR NEEDS to add more general perks for killers AND survivors because as is the general perks for both beyond like 2 exceptions (resilience and NOED) are just trash all around

  • KaTo1337
    KaTo1337 Member Posts: 554
    edited December 2023

    I dont think beginners need to slowdown gens at all, because the new survivors are hiding all game.

    How to improve this?

    Well... decrease perk-shard-prizes in the Shrine of Secrets heavily for the first 3 Devotions.

  • Mooks
    Mooks Member Posts: 14,837

    I wanted to make a list of the good free perks and ask if they are bad but then I figured it’s way too many to write down.

    sure, on killer side it’s less than surv but then you specifically mentioned survivors. There is plenty of good free/from start available perks in this game.

    like.. imagine calling Hope or Kindred trash?! (And also saying Noed is the exception for killers….)

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,959

    There's a combination of two things happening here.

    The first is that there are better general-pool perks than you're giving credit for, on both sides and especially for beginners. Survivors have Deja Vu, Hope, Kindred, Resilience, and We'll Make It, all of which are good and strong perks for everyone and definitely serviceable for beginners. Killers have Bitter Murmur, NOED, Iron Grasp, Sloppy Butcher, Spies from the Shadows, and Whispers, most of which are more beginner perks than useful ones for everyone else but are still perfectly serviceable.

    The second is that people are responding to what new players ACTUALLY have access to, not just the general pool. Remember that the survivor side, for new players, also has access to Bond, Botany Knowledge, Empathy, Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Iron Will, and a handful of other very strong perks. Sure, they'll have to pick one survivor to start with, but there's a high chance their starting survivor has good stuff and it's pretty trivial to level up two characters at once to get more stuff. Killers have a little less, I'll grant you, but there's still some interesting stuff and the power + interest in that role tends to come from powers more than perks anyway.

    The beginner pool of available perks is mostly fine. I'm not against expanding it and I think this game has other issues with onboarding, but the available perks are not in a dire spot just because it doesn't contain the ST perks anymore.

  • HamsterEnjoyer
    HamsterEnjoyer Member Posts: 765
    edited December 2023

    How is it trivial to get more stuff...mind you Deja Vu is only really good with actual experienced players same with hope, resilience is okay but again only good with experienced players, and We'll Make It again not good with new players since most new killers tend to camp and most new survivors don't go for heals straight after an unhook (trust I've been playing with new players almost exclusively since switching to PC).

    Beyond that I don't see how you don't have a problem with 9 perks being removed from the base pool, 7 of which are actually pretty good, and the other 2 being okay, but most of all they're pretty simplistic perks which actually help newcomers far more than most of the general perk pool.

    "But the teachables survivors have!!!!" are locked behind a survivor...like they can pick Meg or Claudette and if they don't then they're just left with some of the worst perks in the game besides Prove Thyself and Dead Hard one of which is only good with experienced players again. So what do survivors REALLY have? Mind you I actually am playing as someone technically who would've just bought the game and there's really nothing for either side to have fun and experiment with when it comes to base game. 609 hours on PC and I have maybe like a handful of good perks on killer side and little to nothing on survivor side because survivors just have no good perks generally and it gets worse with general perks being as trash as they are so I tend to stay far away from PC survivor unless my sister is playing on PC too

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,959

    It's trivial to get more stuff because you get it by playing. Bloodpoint gains are pretty good right now, and the prestige system overall makes getting perks shared between characters pretty easy. It can be fairly time consuming if you want to get everything unlocked, even if it's only everything you have access to with a base version of the game, but if something specific catches your eye then it really isn't that big of a deal to get it unlocked on the character you play.

    As I said elsewhere, I do think it's a shame that perks were lost from the general pool. That's a different argument to the one I'm responding to here, though; it can be both a shame, and not exactly a crippling blow to new players.

    So let's look at the characters you have access to with a base copy of the game, and see how many of them have perks that'll help newer players. We'll be assuming PC because I always forget which specific ones are available on consoles, so that means we have: Dwight, Meg, Claudette, Jake, David, Bill.

    Dwight: Bond is an invaluable resource for everyone, and new players are no exception. Combined with the good general perks (including the ones you tried to dismiss, they're still useful for new players), and maybe including Prove Thyself and Leader just for incremental bonuses, that's an okay first pick.

    Meg: Adrenaline is useful for everyone, Quick & Quiet is at least fun to try and use as a new player, and Sprint Burst is the strongest perk in the game. Maybe not the best for entirely new players as a first pick, but perfectly serviceable.

    Claudette: While Self Care is a bit of a trap, Botany Knowledge and Empathy are both very strong perks especially for newer players, providing strong information and an incentive to try and use it, which will build good habits in the long run. Excellent first perk for new players.

    Jake: Iron Will is a great stealth perk and new players tend to be a bit more skittish around the killer. Similarly, Calm Spirit is imo more likely to help newer players since they're less likely to be as deeply affected by the penalty. Saboteur may not be great for new players, but at least they have access to it if they wanna learn how to sabotage right.

    David: Weakest overall, for sure. Dead Hard is okay but not for newer players really, We're Gonna Live Forever is... fine, and No Mither is not to be touched as a new player. Sure, his perks are weak in this specific situation, but that's one survivor.

    Bill: Left Behind is good for newer players, Unbreakable can help deal with your teammates being a little too green and skittish to come help if you're slugged, and Borrowed Time provides nice incentive to go unhook more proactively. Perfectly good first pick.

    So what we have here is a pool of general perks that's perfectly good and even quite strong in spots, combined with a pool of starting characters that almost all have strong and useful perks to help onboard new players and push them towards good habits like saving, unhooking, and extending chases. I don't see how new players are "basically doomed" because they lost some other good and useful perks.

    Remember, new players don't have the biases and accepted rhetoric that get bandied about a lot by more experienced players. To the people on this forum, for example, over half the survivor perks are trash and only 20 or so are worth using-- but even if we were to do that argument the herculean benefit of assuming it isn't complete nonsense, that's largely only true because everyone involved is playing at a higher level. Considering most perks actually are quite useful even for us, new players clearly have a lot of available options when they're starting out.

    I suppose I should acknowledge that I'm doing this hypothetical new player the service of assuming that they're thinking about what they're doing and that they want to try and learn how the game works, but I think that's a fair assumption. Give someone who doesn't know the game but is interested in learning the general pool of survivor perks paired with accessible teachables, I think they'll do fine, broadly. The game will hamper them with a poor tutorial and opaque mechanical systems, but in terms of giving them tools early, that part's pretty okay.

  • caligraph
    caligraph Member Posts: 359

    there should be a B tier regression perk avaliable at base for new players, nothing meta or anything but something to use while they unlock characters.

  • finalgrrl
    finalgrrl Member Posts: 30

    implying that new players are doomed because they don’t have access to a (relatively) recent chapter…. is so… SO dramatic.

    what do you think killers did before the stranger things chapter…. do you think pre-stranger things killers just hooked themselves? get a grip. good lord.

    there are some seriously strong base game perks. stop relying so heavily on the same 3 perks and gain some well rounded skill by rotating other perks.

  • Yatol
    Yatol Member Posts: 1,960

    I think the big issue for new players is not the stranger things perks but the stupid the level gated perk slot lock, Its unnecessary and makes you play with an handicap, its was worst before during RBMM but its still bad now.

  • Cyber686
    Cyber686 Member Posts: 64

    yeah sure 70 hours to unlock 1 new survivor or killer definetly not a pay wall

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,489

    Actually, yeah. 70h in this game is nothing and obviously you shouldn't be able to unlock the next survivor/killer one you P3ed the last one, but the paceing isn't completely ridiculous moon times. Someone did the math that you need to play approximately 210 games to grind for a new character. But having an incentive to buy a character to skip some hours isn't exactly "pay to win".

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,353

    Mindbreaker(/Fearmonger) and Surge(/Jolt) are handy for a number of killers - but in no way gamechangers. Especially not for beginners. - Well, actually Surge(/Jolt) may be, because from what I can tell beginner killers who can't use their M2 well yet often choose to M1 instead - a behaviour Surge(/Jolt encourages. --- Which, for the record, is a bad thing.

    Tbh, I think it's a very good thing if mostly gimmick/niche perks are commonly available and new players play without them for a while. It prevents them from being over-reliant/carried by them.


    --- If anything there needs to be a "kiddie pool"-detection; where genuinely new players (not smurfers) are placed in a separate matchmaking-pool (idk how you could identify smurfers tbh, maybe based on how quickly they unlock certain perks or sth...?) so that they can get to know maps, mechanics, tiles, perks, add-ons etc. pp. among themselves. The learning curve for dbd is extreme at this point and no new player should be forced to jump into the shark tank after just a dozen or so matches that, for some reason, went well.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,489

    This! So much this!

    The gme is so unforgiving, beyond any reason, to new players. My 2500h arse was matched with a 19h Nemesis killer player the other day. Let that sink in.

  • Donkeybqlls
    Donkeybqlls Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 81

    Why? I'm only going to talk surv to keep this post limited to a 2 hour read:

    Kindred is general, start with Bill to get left behind and bt or Meg to sprintburst and adrenaline. After grinding one level on 1 of these characters you can move to the other and you've got a decent set of perks

    + If I remember correctly just getting started and doing the tutorial gives a lot of bp to get you going. Sure it's overwhelming at the start but every starter character has at least one nice perk I still frequently use:

    -dwight: prove thyself

    - meg/bill: see above

    - claudette: selfcare

    - david: deadhard

  • Bran
    Bran Member Posts: 2,096

    I mean, any new player is without most perks unless they want to use their actual money to buy a vital part of the game that has been conveniently locked behind a paywall.

    Sure the free characters perks are okay, but the point still stands.

    Not counting the shrine because it's a cop out.