Are SWF a problem or is it all an illusion?
Why do you think SWF is a problem and how should it be fixed?
Comments
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Way too strong for M1 killers. (low tier killers) Communication are totally obliterates some killers's powers.
Thats all.
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It can't be fixed.
Unless devs decide to balance game around them. But this will be terrible for game because playing solo will be pointless, even now solo-q is already so bad.
Devs can't remove SWF too because this would just kill game. People are playing online games with their friends.
So there is no actual solution.
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It is not an illusion. It is bad Killer players thinking they lose due to SWF and not because of their own mistakes.
Does not help that there are certain very vocal streamers at giga MMR and in the sweatiest region who advocate this opinion.
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There is not a problem with playing with your friends.
Now we can stop making these threads. It has been made clear, SWF is not being touched.
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Not really, honestly.
The VAST majority of SWF's are just as bad as Solo Q, you just have a better time because your with friends.
The ones that exploit it to its fullest potential? They could likely win even as four solo's. I see that as more of a matchmaking issue
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As a killer player, I consider SWFs the baseline I have to compete with.
There are just some lovely players who decide to give me an advantage by choosing to play solo.
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I would say that goes for both sides. Many players seem to believe that only top tier SWFs can achieve even basic results. I have played against countless SWFs that played pretty bad and against countless solos that were amazing. I play almost exclusively solo survivor, when I don't play killer, but really, for me it's mostly other people that play in a SWF that throw and not other solos.
For the most part it really doesn't matter, if the survivors play in a SWF. It only matters how they play. A coordinated group that beats the killer in the 1v4 will always have an advantage but that can happen in both situations, if all survivors play somewhat good.
This is one of the reasons I am against the killer being told who plays in a SWF. It's a natural coping mechanism to find reasons why one couldn't win but when you base your opinions on balance solely on that, it becomes an issue. After all, if there is nothing you can do, then there is no need to improve and someone else, who would have played better surely couldn't have gotten better results, could they?
The situations in which one side really couldn't do anything to win are few and far between.
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It's a known fact that communication such as "Discord or skype or whatever" is a key component for survivor's success.
You can clearly see how SWFs can deal much easier with certain killers like Hag, Singularity or Trapper, Pinhead or even Xeno.
Calling out the trapped areas, emp-ing friends mid-chase, the box, calling out the places with double turrets.
Saying that SWF and soloq are on the same "level" is so wrong in many different ways.
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We don't care either way but wouldn't showing who's in a SWF shatter that coping illusion? Or are we thinking about it wrong?
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I don't agree with the last sentence.
If you take away the Discord from SWF, they will probably struggle against certain killers as I mentioned above (Hag, Trapper, Singu, etc...)
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I think it would lead to a massive amount of lobby dodging and killers giving up from the start because they think they can't win anyway, if it's a SWF. Maybe it could work, if it was displayed after the match but before that, I don't think any good would come of it.
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If you take SWF's that push the game to its limit, they are perfectly capable of doing that without Discord.
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e: I was misremembering what BHVR said about SWF escape rates, please disregard this.
Post edited by H2H on4 -
Buckle up for the straw man arguments of "people shouldn't be punished for playing with friends". Literally no one is asking for this. People are asking for a balanced, fair game for both sides. Removing an unfair advantage is not "punishment"
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I disagree 100% and I think a lot of other people who play killer would also disagree. I'm not saying that your individual experience is wrong, but my guess (based on your post history) is that you're probably a top 1% performer on the killer side and so you can handle a coordinated SWF better than most. Based on my experience (casual killer and survivor player), SWF's a FAR more difficult to beat than solo Q teams. If BHVR would release the data we wouldn't need to have these speculative arguments, but we all know they never will and I suspect I know the reason why they won't.
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It can be fixed (or at least partially fixed), but it never will be. It would be easy for BHVR to introduce balance handicaps based on number of survivors playing together in a lobby, MMR rating, etc., but they never will because SWF players who have long been spoiled by their unfair advantage will stop playing.
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OFC SWF is a problem, the game was not built with SWF in mind and the foundation game mechanics that the entire game has been built on for almost a decade, completely contradicts SWF. Even worse, it's completely destroyed this community since Killers hate Survs because they often verse SWF, SWF's troll the Killer and anyone who wants to play as Surv with one friend or in SoloQ is heavily punished for it. Soloq is literally unplayable, it's an alt tab simulator. SWF literally null and voids dozens of Surv perks that were intended for years to be based around extremely limited information; which is also why there's so many ######### Killer Aura reading perks *oop the killer farted, show Surv auras for 15 seconds in a 40m radius*.
It's also hilarious that anytime a mechanic is proposed to deal with SWF people cry "But I shouldn't be punished for playing with friends", like babe, every video game is constructed around game mechanics and new ones need to be developed to alter SWF play to balance the game overall in a healthy way. There's a few ways to do that, that BHVR could implement:
- Limit the amount of perks available to SWF, to limit them all running the same meta perks in ultra coordination.
- Increase gen time and amount to do depending on SWF party.
- Rework the perk tree to change perk % values depending on how many players are in a party.
- Add optional voice comms to SoloQ
As a player since 2016, I can boot up the game in 2023 as Killer to either get ultra sweaty SWF players or SoloQ which I release all my frustration out from my prior SFW games and so I torment them. If I want to play as Surv I can get my friends together and we get easy games based off farming the Killer or I can play SoloQ and be alt tabbed playing a different game because I have no interest in playing against tunnelers/campers/bots (Surv Bots as when I play SoloQ almost every single game their is a DC).
The game is in a triangular down spiral and has been for years: SWF>Killer>Surv. Three separate groups within this games community when only two of those groups were intended from the start.
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Why do people even quote stats anymore like this? DC's don't count, right? So every single game that players DC from, isn't counted.. and there is a lot of DCing that happens in this game. Are there any stats BHVR has released showing how many games there is at least one DC in?
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Unless you think Solo Q has a genuinely abysmal escape rate (like, sub 20%) there's not a way SWF's are extremely OP for the average player based on the stats we DO have.
Maybe you're right and I'm good, I don't know, but average players are still just average even when grouped up. It doesn't magically make you better, just gives you info, what you do with it is still up to the player
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The devs have stated many times in the past that SWF was always intended, and that as launch neared they could either have KYF mode ready or SWF mode, and went with KYF. Very soon after they added in SWF.
What I will say is I believe they strongly underestimated how use of comms & the ability to choose your mates could and did effect the game. The very things that allowed DBD to grow so fast and far, along with all the licenses.
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Not sure wheee you're getting, "the game was not built with SWF in mind" because that's not true.
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swfs have the option and ability to form a team of good players and have communication. that's a big and clear advantage. a swf team of 2 or even 1 below average players won't be too much of a challenge.
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In my experience, the only benefits of SWF you're really gonna see are people not going next, or calling out perks they've seen proc.
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All SWFs do play from a position of advantage and there are instances where SWFs are so strong that it's not reasonable for killers to beat them unless they play perfectly, but they are the exception. Not really a big problem overall.
But it doesn't really matter either way because it can't be fixed. I'd like to see if a group is a SWF while still in lobby (just so I know what I'm dealing with), but that would lead to rampant dodging, so it's not really an option.
Disallowing comms is not an option. Disallowing SWF altogether would result in a huge cut to profits, as that's like half the surv base playing some sort of SWF configuration.
Love it, hate it, or anything in between, it's not going anywhere.
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Well said.
I'm honestly tired of these threads.
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Being easy and easy for BHVR can be mutually exclusive things, lol.
In order to be fair, balance handicaps would have to be partially based on MMR (for every death squad there are probably 3 groups of absolute doorknobs just potato-ing it up, and four good solo players beats them every time), and BHVRs MMR barely works on its own.
And you are right, there are a fair number of players out there drunk on the illusion of being good that playing exclusively in SWF offers that would totally bail if that was taken from them.
But a statistically significant number? I'm not sure.
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SWF and Streamers feel like the root of a lot of toxicity to this game.
Perks like Head-on, OOO, and Flashlights in general have been considered toxic things because these people abuse these features. In Solo, something like a head-on save should be considered a impressive feat and a very rewarding part of the game. In reality, your reward will be getting hard-tunneled and hit on hook by the Killer because they faced an infamous head-on squad some point in their life and think you're whole team is a SWF now.
Again, I beg you BHVR, just tell Killer if they're facing Solo/SWF so both Killer/Solo-Q doesn't have to suffer anymore.
SWF made their bed, they can go face the killers who are more than happy to face them with their Lightborn.
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That just encourages lobby shopping and would make Solo worse.
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You act like Solos wouldn't dodge a SWF as well.
I'm not going to be your Gen Jocky while you go harass the killer trying to get epic power struggle plays. I'm glad Killer bled you all to death.
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1) Show in the Post game screen who was in a SWF with whom, so that killers can realize that they stomp and get stomped by SWFs and that a lot of their surprise wins was actually just altruism.
2) peeps in SWFs can only have a single copy of each perk. Casual SWFs will barely notice, while bullies can't use 4x Head On with Dead Dog offerings or 4x MFT+Resilience+Hyperfocus etc. SoloQ are, of course, unaffected.
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I personally feel that swf is not a problem. The communication aspect is. If they have discord etc. In this day and age you have to assume that most swf or multi-player games have some outside communication.
Being able to call things out is a problem. Makes certain builds not work. As a killer main I play against everyone. Swf, solo it does not matter. This game is too random to think you can win all the time. I just do what I can.
Regardless. Comms is an advantage. If your using it you have an advantage.
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You act like that wouldn't kill the game and therefore negatively impact EVERYONE.
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SWF is not a problem. Few SWFs are going to have comms or coordination that swings the balance of a match to a huge degree. If basic comms are breaking a killer, they have a lot to improve on.
Even calling out power/traps/etc. That shouldn't be breaking a killer. Calling out camping? Shouldn't matter if you're camping in a situation that makes sense to camp. Comms don't make nearly as much of a difference if you're making the right plays.
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If the game dies because people can't bully others than maybe its for the best.
I rather have a game where everyone gets along than one where there's constant fighting and hate.
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Perception vs. reality.
In reality, mostly everybody gets along. There’s really not much bullying, hate, or fighting.
The game is fine. SWF is fine.
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Banning people from playing with their friends is a sure-fire way of making sure nobody gets to play.
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You mean after SWF was released they said it was always intended? Oh wow, that totally clears that up lmao The game sold in 2016 as a niche asymmetrical horror game that was advertised as being a 1v1v1v1v1 where cooperation wasn't needed on the Surv side but encouraged, with a heavy focus on having limited information. I should know, that's when I bought the game. Yea that totally sounds like a game that had SWF in mind while developing it, totally backed up by all the Surv Aura perks that SWF have as basekit simply by being in a SWF as well as all the Killer perks that SWF completely negate lmao
SWF was a mechanic change to sell more copies and thus it did. Nothing more, nothing less.
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They would not? Why they would?
Not all SWFs are ignoring gens, most of them actually know how to put pressure on killer. And your suggestion would make all killers dodge SWFs which means they would not get match.
So not gonna happen.
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It's completely true. Unless you can provide some evidence that the game launched with SWF or mentioned SWF anywhere back in EA. The game was literally advertised as a 1v1v1v1v1 with no communication and stuck to that for a while. Aside from that, it's also mind numbingly true if you rub two brain cells together and take a hard look at the games foundational mechanics and current mechanics. It's really not rocket science to look at the dozens of perks that are useless because of SWF's, both on the Survs side but more importantly on the Killers side.
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You should probably go see what devs have already said in previous swf threads. You’d see you’re blatantly wrong. Lmao
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Yup yup. This is one of the reasons I loathe threads like these, misinformation abounds...
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They held a vote before the game released.
People wanted KYF, so they put in KYF prior to the game releasing with SWF following closely after.
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Read the comments, they mention streams from prior to the game's release and show a clear indication of a design plan.
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I know… if only people would do a quick search to see what the devs have already said about stuff like this. Lol
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They prioritized adding in SWF after it was noticed friends would just lobby hop until they all were in the same lobby, but yeah they said it was always an intended mode.
I'm sure someone will find the relevant threads of the devs saying so, but if that won't convince you I have nothing for ya.
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If swf and solo queue weren’t that different in terms of escape rate, there wouldn’t be a need to close the gap between them right? Sounds like the Survivor action icons should be removed.
People keep complaining about how Solo Queue sucks but I barely see people complaining about the dbd experience in a swf.
Gee I wonder why
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Call me crazy, but I don't think SWF is a problem. 🤷♂️
Dbd is an illusion tho, and one day we'll all wake up and it'll all just be one of those big Mandala effects.
🍻
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Dbd is an illusion tho
DBD is real, but in fact the game has just released, we've never left 2016.
Skull Merchant, map reworks, MFT... it is all in our heads.
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The strongest part of swfs is just when 4 strong players play together. Comms is secondary.
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