I'm back and its time for a real conversation about what swf does to this game
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Afraid? No. Going to be highly annoyed if its on? Yep. If we wanted to listen to people yell at us for stupid reasons we'd go back to our jobs so we'd at least get paid for it. And if we mute them, it will cause the "children" (we have a better term but it would be censored) to lash out from being ignored and cause a whole other case of head aches. EVENTUALLY it may peter out, but until that time (and we're betting a good while), its going to be a lot of grief for us thats pretty much unnecessary. If Texas chainsaw is a model to go by, we DEFINATLY do NOT want it.
Our personal bets on how people react aside, its because a negative to playing with friends will disincentivize (love dictionaries) people from playing with friends. Some players only get on TO play with their friends and adding a penalty is more likely to make those ones say "not worth playing" than "ok sure". In general people think negative = bad (and to be fair thats usually smart). That said we do acknowledge in the end it does not matter how it gets there, but it will be a painfully spikey path to reach that end going the stick route with the added possibility of loosing enough players to harm the game.
If you could please define these extreme cases. Is a duo extreme? Trio? A squad of ppl BSing and singing christmas carols (good times)? Is the punishment strictly for 4 man squads, cause we know a trio who can give the killer a run for their money if they wanted to.
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That would lead to insane amounts of lobby shopping. Most killers would just dodge until they get only solos, and with about half of all survs in at least a two-man queue times would soar for everyone and destroy their matchmaking as well.
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If adding voice comms for Solo, and Solo dont want to use it. Then the improvement of Solo's escaping rate does not improved. Then the average kill rate is not changed, which killers also will not be improved aswell.
Devs monitor if a feature changes kill/escape rate to make further change. If a feature decrease kill rate, they will improve killers. If not, they dont.
You're thinking putting a useless feature for Solo that no one wants to use means the Devs should buff killers further without monitoring performance of a feature, and leave Solo behind even further. Do I have that right?
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I didn’t know you spoke for all of the Solo Queue players when you called it a “useless” feature but ok sure
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Killers dont even dare to open post game chat. So yes, survivors will not open voice chat.
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Inner Focus should be base kit for survivors who play by themselves. No one ever equips it, and other aura perks are stronger. This way solo players don’t have to sacrifice all their perks for aura reading, or aura protection.
The problem with SWF is they never have to waste perk slots for aura reading/protection because they have comms.
That is why SWF is broken. Comms allow players to focus solely on stacking exhaustion perks, and busted combos without any consequence. While people who play alone (Solo & Killer) cannot do this, or must adapt. If you do not adapt, or play dirty, you will lose. This is not fair for both sides.
The balance should be a limit to stacking perks in a party. A group of 3+ can only have 1 copy of a perk. So No 3-4 Adrenalines, or Breakdowns in a 3-4 man squad. Etc. Every character must now make a specific build, or role. Like a true team. Not stack whatever perks you fancy as to harass a killer.
That’s why as killer I’ll tunnel players out the moment I get the chance now. The moment you try to “have fun” as any role some sweats come along, and spoils it. Especially as killer! Whenever I see scoreboards it’s double For The People/Buckle Up. A bunch of exhaustion perks. Double/Triple Prove Thyself. It’s always something teams can exploit.
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Other games also have better/more strict matchmaking than DBD. If you balanced like this then you would need to significantly change the matchmaking. How do you think high MMR killers would feel about actually having to play against the sweatiest premade groups every single match? I already know how they'd react. People already whine about how sweaty the game is.
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- Knowing the general skill level of teammates: not really a SWF thing, you can view profiles or ask. If matchmaking was fixed, then every survivor would generally know their teammates are around their skill level, or could ask in pregame chat/check profile.
- Won't give up on first hook: increasing softcap/fixing MM also fixes this. I agree that this is technically an advantage, but I don't think playing with people that won't throw the game should be considered any sort of unreasonable advantage of SWF. Everyone should be able to play with teammates that aren't going to throw/troll.
- What they usually bring: technically an advantage, but depends on the group, also you can ask in pregame chat. There really should just be a pregame menu to show teammate perks like DBD mobile has, and this would be a nonissue
- Their playstyle: this is an advantage, but not one I think needs balancing around.
The only reasonable issue I can see someone having with a SWF is the ability to use outside-game communications for an advantage. And there is no way to punish/balance around that, without also negatively impacting people who aren't using those tools or don't gain any significant benefit from it. Which is why the better solution is give solo queue players more information and tools like I talked about above, as well as improving matchmaking, and buff the weaker killers.
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A solution like this won't happen because it would require BHVR to accurately track and update "broken" perk combos and restrict them in teams. Not to mention, this doesn't stop you as killer from facing 4 well-coordinated solo players who can all bring these "busted" combos and use them to the fullest.
If there's a busted or problematic perk combo in the game (FTP+BU) just remove it. Restricting SWF from using it won't make it not appear in your games.
Also side note but I think it's funny that you consider Windows of Opportunity a busted SWF perk
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The thing is though, we know which perks are used the most in these SWF matches, and BHVR does nerf the killer or survivor perks that are overused and complained about so tracking which ones are popular in matches wouldn't be much of an issue, I'd imagine. Solo is a different spectrum than with SWF though: no comms, no info on the other's perks, no coordinated combos from each other's perks unless you are that good where you can instantly read that well what the other survivors have somehow.
The issue we're having here is the perks being busted in SWF, not solo. Solo is a mixed bag and even the best players can make mistakes because a lack of info or making the wrong decision because of it not being SWF; you're going off purely on your own abilities to make good decisions and not on the team's through swift real-time communication. But true about WoO, as a Survivor main who uses WoO, it's not busted, it's just overused, and for good reason, tbh; M1 killers don't really stand much of a chance if you're running WoO and going from one area to the next knowing which pallets have and have not been used.
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idk... why do people always ask for the full plan when you are just giving ideas or pointing things out?
what do you think an extreme would be in this case? why do you need it spelled out?
it's a survivor team, that is too effective. that is all. it's the obvious thing isn't it? how we reach that criteria may not be simple, but the criteria itself is.
could be as simple as a formula like G/(T*H). where G is gens completion, T is time and H is hook stages +1. if the result is ever bigger than X, then something triggers to maybe slow the game down a bit.
We make X big enough to basically only happen on survivor teams that really rush those gens, and there we go.
it's also independant of it being a swf in this case... if it triggers in solo q, congrats.
-ask? people lie. profiles never tell the full story. it is very much something that comes from playing with someone you know.
-is MM fixed? because until it is, still an advantage. which I never called unreasonable. do try to avoid putting words in my mouth.
-there is no chat on console. that's a pc advantage. You should stop using features we don't have as solutions. we do not see what people bring, there is no chat on console. It's an advantage you have on swf. always has been.
-so is the other 3.
you need to see better then.
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1 because it's easier to point out things (yes we're guilty), 2 cause if you have the full plan it's proof that you thought things relatively through.
We ask because what's extreme for one person isn't extreme for another. We don't think 4 man SWFs are extreme. We've had 4 mans shooting themselves in the foot because of how they played and would never call them effective. Would they be extreme for someone else? One guess to answer.
See? That's an example of something that's not punishing SWFs. That is something we would work with.
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Other people should be punished because you want to play with friends and have voice chat, being organized and have all those coordination advantages as well as call outs?
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I mostly play SoloQ and Killer.
I don't feel punished because someone wanted to play with friends. There is nothing wrong with that.
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The main issue I see is that nerfing swf would ultimately penalize solo q which would hurt the game more than help it. It's also important to note that while swf can give you many advantages it doesn't mean that all those players are good at the game simply because they play together. Alot of times when killers say that they get stomped by swfs it's mainly when it's a 4 man sweat squad with over 30k hours between them all and while this is not fun and not fair to the killer, it shouldn't mean that all survivors should pay the price for the top 1% of the game
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I don’t mind sweaty games at all, if the game is balanced for that level. TCM does a much better job of this than DBD. I’m ok with sweating if the game feels fair.
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I play Texas Chainsaw and it’s fine. You don’t speak for everyone.
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We never said we speak for everyone, we can only speak for ourselves. Good for you you got fine lobbies, we sure didn't. Everyone has different experiences, and ours makes us not want voice chat in game.
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The game can’t be properly balanced without it. And again, I don’t understand why adding VC is a problem. You will have the option to mute people. Right now people in favor of it have nothing. Adding it with the option to mute is a fair compromise.
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The reasons they've given over the years for no comms is the availability of them outside of the game, and language barriers around the world.
Imo they simply do not want the moderation nightmare it would be to police it.
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That’s a cop out. I’ll keep using TCM as a reference. They have 40 people working on the game and manage just fine. BHVR is a much larger studio. There is no excuse.
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1: The game probably couldn't be properly balanced no mater what anyone does. The people in favor have an all or nothing deal here so idk what you want us to say here (either they have voice coms or dont)
2: If you mute someone and they don't like it they may toss to spite.
3: If you mute them and they don't like they may grief to spite.
4: If you mute them and they know in the lobby they may dodge to spite creating longer que times and throwing what little mmr works for out the window.
5: If you DON'T mute them you'll have to listen to them whine about how your playing in a way they don't like (yes, while on the same team)
6: If you DON'T mute them and in the pregame lobby you tell your build: A: They accept what your running B: Whine about not playing how they want you to play or C: Bail because your not running what they want and causing point 4 the long way. All 3 are likely in our eyes.
7: If you DON'T mute them and they ask your build and you don't tell them either the above A or C is most likely to happen
8: If you DON'T mute them they may troll for kicks and giggles (such as screeching, air horns, etc.) This is an extreme example but a realistic possibility.
9: If the killer is crazy enough to not have ppl muted (assuming coms lets people talk in the end game) then THEY will have to listen to survivors whine about Blah Blah and Blah along with the team. This isn't much of a point, but we're pointing it out anyway.
10: The devs would have to put in a LOT of work since it DBD wasn't developed with in game coms (and they'll probably want a profanity filter that will have alot of work cut out for it)
These are off the top of our head.
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None of what you typed here matters. We can go back and forth, but at the end of the day, here is all that really matters:
- (1) There is no SWF advantage that needs to be "balanced around" other than using external tools to communicate.
- (2) DBD developers have explicitly enabled outside-game communications
- (3) There is no way to detect whether players are using outside-game communications
If you disagree with (1) then this conversation is over, we will never see eye to eye.
Since (2), comms/SWF will not be removed. Since (3), any suggestion that aims to "balance" SWF by applying some sort of restriction, nerf, or penalty to them will hurt players who don't deserve it (see (1)).
Therefore, the only reasonable option is buffing solo queue by giving them more information.
As for your points:
- There is no point in discussing "advantage" over people lying or trolling. Your teammates should be playing to help you. This is a player issue. It is less likely in SWF, but not an "advantage" to be balanced around. Solo should enjoy that luxury too.
- Doesn't matter if it is an advantage. It should not be "balanced" around when the alternative to make it not an advantage, is fixing an aspect of the game that needs fixing. Also, I did not say that you referred to it as unreasonable or put that part in quotes, do try to not take things that are not related to you personally. It is important to address points/thoughts from others in this thread and it's easier to do by including them in my replies instead of quoting every single person.
- Again, no need to "balance" around an advantage that solo should have anyway. All platforms should be able to see perks/items/add-ons/offerings of teammates in lobby.
- If you have an actual issue with SWF outside of outside-game communications, that is unironically a skill issue and/or "us vs them" mentality. You should not be seeing players being matched with those of equal skill who DON'T want to throw the game as an issue with SWF. Same with seeing perks, as it is something any solo queue team can coordinate beforehand (even console, excluding switch, if you add the player and send them a message).
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except for the part that matters. which is, this is all an answer to you asking what was the inherent advantage to swf with just in game stuff.
I answered that question. everything you are saying is some other conversation you think we are having.
for (1), "needs to be balanced around" is just a meaningless nebulous term to use. what gets balanced around is whatever the developers decide. there isn't a specific metric we can use. it will mean whatever we want it to mean as long as we can make our argument around it and just continue to move goalposts.
so can we just not use that and be practical? YOU don't think it needs balancing. it's not inherent, just opinions. always has been. which is fine.
want my opinion? actually ask.
(2), allowed. not enabled. it would also be essentially unnenforcible if they didn't allow it.
(3), yes there is. it's quite simple actually... just kinda pointless and too much work to keep relevant.
Since (2), comms/SWF will not be removed. Since (3), any suggestion that aims to "balance" SWF by applying some sort of restriction, nerf, or penalty to them will hurt players who don't deserve it (see (1)).
there is no comms to be removed, they do not have it in game. unless you are counting chat for some reason... also, who is seriously asking swf to be removed here?
and (3) does not lead to that conclusion whatsoever... even if you were right in the premise, which you are not.
There is no point in discussing "advantage" over people lying or trolling. Your teammates should be playing to help you. This is a player issue. It is less likely in SWF, but not an "advantage" to be balanced around. Solo should enjoy that luxury too.
Doesn't matter if it is an advantage. It should not be "balanced" around when the alternative to make it not an advantage, is fixing an aspect of the game that needs fixing. Also, I did not say that you referred to it as unreasonable or put that part in quotes, do try to not take things that are not related to you personally. It is important to address points/thoughts from others in this thread and it's easier to do by including them in my replies instead of quoting every single person.
Again, no need to "balance" around an advantage that solo should have anyway. All platforms should be able to see perks/items/add-ons/offerings of teammates in lobby.
If you have an actual issue with SWF outside of outside-game communications, that is unironically a skill issue and/or "us vs them" mentality. You should not be seeing players being matched with those of equal skill who DON'T want to throw the game as an issue with SWF. Same with seeing perks, as it is something any solo queue team can coordinate beforehand (even console, excluding switch, if you add the player and send them a message).
-being able to thrust your teammate is not an advantage? also... some people are simply bad at judging their own skill level.
-my only point is that it is an advantage. who are you arguing against?
-why are you bringing up balance so much?
-you should ask for my opinions on stuff before putting words in my mouth. again.
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