Why generic perks should be a bit stronger and cover more parts of gameplay
So this is a bit of a tangent on why I think generic perks should be stronger and cover more parts of gameplay including ones that brand new players might not think about or quite need yet.
New players to dbd have very limited options in terms of perks which is fine because for a while they will go up against newer players, however as they play for longer their limit of options starts hurting as they start to improve and face better players and the idea of the kinds of perks and effects they might want and or need are never introduced to them with the perks they are likely to have access to early on.
Part of this problem comes from the limitations of generic perks on both sides. Survivors don't have any good self healing ability from generic perks (after the stranger things perks were made no longer generic) and killers don't have any perks that help them tend to objectives, while on paper this should be fine since newer players shouldn't think about healing themselves as much as others and slowing objectives like more skilled players might have to I think the logic is off on why they shouldn't have them.
Eventually newer players will start going against better players as they improve over time, which means starting to face better players without having access to any kinds of these perks or very limited amounts assuming they unlock or buy a character or two can hinder their experience. Generic perks should provide a range of options both for new players and to help new players bridge the gap to becoming more experienced. From perks that might help new players feel less impact from their mistakes like unrelenting to introducing the idea of alternative forms of healing and slowdown perks like what surge and inner strength / second wind did. New perks should have a breath of knowledge to teach and decent all around strength below what a specialized build offers but still enough to do decently across the board.
I think removing these perks from the pool and giving them back to their respective dlcs are fine but leaving the gaps under the guise of new players don't need it isn't quite right because its not about where they are its about making a smooth transition to where they are going.
(yes I stole the otz chart)
To remedy this I think there should be new generic perks in the game as introductions to these kinds of affects and abilities to give the new players a bridge into more difficult ideas and gameplay elements and in general some of the weaker perks should be buffed if they don't fill a niche of supporting new players.
Some ideas for alternative healing / slowdown
Denting blows : Upon hitting a survivor this perk activates, hitting a generator with a basic attack regresses the generator 4/4.5/5% of its max progression and applies normal gen regression this perk then deactivates
Something something healing: Whenever you complete healing another survivor you gain a stack, when you have 2 stacks this perk activates, upon completing a healing action while injured you lose 2 stacks, instantly heal 1 health state and the perk deactivates (you don't get a stack off this effect) you heal other survivors 0/5/10% faster
(added idea, some kind of hex perk to pair up with thrill of the hunt, on its own thrill provides nothing but with another hex perk with an actual effect thrill now gives the idea of using other hex perks to also protect totems kind of like a gateway to understanding the point of haunted grounds and undying)
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They could also make some of the 'base game killers' perks better. Like Beast of Prey, Territorial Imperative, Bloodhound, or Unnerving Presence. At least one of those could be a gen regression perk so new players could have access to at least ONE gen slowdown perk
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100% agree. At this point bloodhound could be combined with predator to become a better tracking perk and open up a slot for slowdown at the very least
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I sometimes forget that thrill is a base game perk
I bet it confuses new players because why would you ever use it without another hex
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I think a better question is: why would you use it?
Ever since patch 1.5.2 Thrill was made to protect your hex totems, and now it doesn't even do that.
They should never have nerfed it.
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You know what great point, a base game hex perk that has an actual effect makes a lot of sense and then having a perk like thrill in the base game makes sense since it shows there are also perks that help protect perk totems kinda like an introduction to the idea of haunted grounds / undying, adding it to the list
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I agree, a fresh coat of paint on thrill and a new hex perk as a generic perk that you would want to protect to pair with it for new players would be good.
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Im all for making the New Player Experience better, Ive made many suggestions in the past regarding it, and I still think it should be improved.
Regardless of how people feel about it, the New Player Experience should always be considered, we need a stream of new players joining the game for the game to thrive and flourish.
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I remember buying the game and immediately grinding for hag.
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I think this situation is extremely overblown for survivors. Bond, Prove Thyself, Botany, Adrenaline, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Balanced Landing, Unbreakable are all also free perks you just have to put a little time into the game to unlock and are all very strong perks. Let's be honest besides Kate and maybe Feng there's no DLC survivor you actually need outside of preference if being competitive is the only thing you care about.
For killers it's a little bit of a more dire situation as no generic regression perk is kinda tough. I do think several generic killer perks need to be reworked like Insidious and Shattered Hope to actually be useful as there's far too many useless generic perks for killer. That being said given that Wraith is the best beginner killer honestly Sloppy/NOED/Nurses/Enduring isn't like the worst thing in the world and can be run for free.
I will say it kinda sucks for killer that unlike survivor you kinda have to hope a killer you like has good perks cuz you have these extremes like Clown who has amazing perks but isn't for everyone and then killers like Wesker who I acknowledge is very popular but has absolutely garbage perks and then you have to wonder if it's justified to buy killers just for perks or is it okay to buy a killer you think you might like but is a massive waste of you wind up not liking them cuz their perks are bad.
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I think a perk being free for unlocking only carries it so far but I do agree that the regard survivors base game content (on pc) for unlockable perks far exceed what killers have available. But survivors do still have to work with their base game perks for a while as new players. By the time a survivor is starting to prestige a character for the first time they will have gotten (assuming they always get the perks) all of their specific perks t3, and all of the general perks t3. So 14 out of the 17 perks at their disposal will be the general perks for a long period of time, it just makes sense for these perks to be more usable for the first ~10 hours of play it might take a brand new player to get to their first prestige and teach them some things so while its not as dire as killer it couldn't hurt and might do some good for new player retention to give them proper tools to learn with.
But I completely agree with the rest of it killers are in a bad spot for general perks and the disconnect of unlocking killer vs their perks vs both is a hard sell on new players. I do think the 4500 shard price on most killers might help but its still a grind and a climb. I sure did love grinding those 9000 shards for hag only to hate her then have to spend millions of blood points (at the time) to unlock ruin then grind and pray for it (and bbq) on all my other killers in their bloodwebs
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The way Fearmonger and Jolt instantly became top-5 free killer perks when they became generic perks was always a little funny to me. And the fact that Fearmonger is there at all is kind of maddening.
(My top 5 free killer perks would be Jolt, Sloppy Butcher, Fearmonger, Agitation, and NoED if you were wondering). Tinkerer used to be on there but not anymore.
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There are two things I think people overlook in these discussions, though I do agree to an extent with your argument here.
The first is that new players also have access to the base game teachables, if not as things they can use right away then as things that give them that information as to what perks exist and how they might be used. As much as I agree a generic hex would be good to make it clear what it is that Thrill of the Hunt does, it must be acknowledged that new players do have access to Huntress Lullaby. It's not a good perk, but when contrasted with Thrill, it does paint the picture you describe of making it clear that Thrill exists to protect other perks. Still, I do agree that the generic pool should be improved; it's just important to remember that's not everything new players have access to, so certain gaps may not actually exist.
The second is survivor specific, and is aimed at the self-healing element. That's a criticism I've seen before, that new players have no access to reliable and decently strong self healing, but it often neglects to consider that new players very much do have that in their bloodwebs: Medkits. Survivors not only have teachables revolving around self healing, they have the items that revolve around self healing, which very much is enough. I would say that the base pool of survivor perks is basically fine at the moment, but even if some were to be added, self heal is not something new players need more of. They have some options already, and they need to learn that self healing is a scarce resource to be used when necessary, not the way they should be healing every injury.
With those two elements in mind, I'd try to push for a slightly different tactic to resolve the issue than yours. Rather than adding new generic perks, I'd suggest reworking the more useless current generic perks, especially for killer, as well as retooling the base game teachables to better support newer players. That's the pool we're looking at, generic plus base game teachables, so improving what's already there should be more than enough.
In terms of new perks, I'd say survivors don't really need any (maybe a replacement for Kinship no longer being base game anti-camp?), and killers only really need a little. Something to better support Thrill, and something for chase, whether these are new perks entirely or just reworked existing ones.
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I think both aspects of generic and the starting character teachable could use a look at but the reason I think that generics need it first is because a new survivor / killer will spend at least ~10 hours with the generic perks and 1 characters perks only before ever getting their first prestige and ever getting teachables on others, assuming they keep rate they would need ~50 hours as killer (less because they will likely get more bp), or ~70 hours as survivor (more because both survivors get less bp and they would likely not be good at earning bp) to make the most out of their base game content. Improving generic perks makes this a better starting experience to then reach and give ideas on how to make use of those teachables makes the game more accessible to new players.
I do think starting with a rework to useless generics would be a good start but I think the best progression route would be fix generic bad perks, create a decent variety, then retool the teachables which they would get next
A survivor anti-camp generic perk would be nice to introduce the concept of situational perks for countering potential killer strategy which a lot of survivor perks focus / thrive on like unbreakable, ds, off the record ect. And I do agree that a killer base game chase perk would be nice to have it used to be unrelenting but there has been a gap since then
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the reason why generic perk are generally weak is because they make new player feel like they're going through crafting a build and progressing a game. New player don't really need perks because they are just starting the game and everyone having no perks makes it easier to learn the game. Perk complicate the game and new player need simplification. the generic perk are just there as sample perks for a new player to have something in the blood-web for first level 50 character. After that, your suppose pick new characters, try their perks out and see if you like them. If you like them, you should level them fully to get them on every other character.
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Hard disagree, new players should have perks not just so they can get a foothold for playing with new players but also as a stepping stone to playing with better players as they improve instead of hoping that teachables they may or may not have are unlocked at the time to help them bridge the gap. They shouldn't just be filler.
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the game has too high of skill-floor for new player to play vs better players. on survivor end, otz briefly made a video at on point which talks about how long does it take for survivor player to become remotely effective at the game? otz estimates were around 250, 500, 750 and 1000 hours.
they won't have teachable unlocked. your almost expected to reach a progression cieling in the game and sometimes this progression ceiling may hamper your ability to climb in the game if you are partly competitive/care about winning. dbd allows you to create your own stepping stones however a lot of perks in this game are noob-traps, massively noob-traps that provide little to no value. dbd has so much of that nobody cares about that because most player that play dbd gravitate to few select good perks while rest of them are often ignored. New player on the other hand fall into these noob-traps so they often create excessive grind for themselves which artificially boosts the player's retention to the game and makes them continue to play dbd. if they got bored of the game grind, than they might stop playing from x y z reasons.
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I very strongly agree. I wrote up and was going to post what I'd do to every free perk on the killer side but haven't because of their AMA response. I legitimately don't understand how they can be ok with the current state of free perks. Killer is way worse than Survivor, but even they have a distinct lack of anti tunnel or anti camping perks.
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The skill floor problem is because its a relative skill floor, new players don't only face new players eventually the face people with hundreds more hours in the game, to better stand a chance against them or more quickly learn to their level more effective tools are needed. And to stop people from falling into traps of poor selection of what to grind and poor selection of what they started with again they just need better tools and the noob trap perks need a new coat of paint. While the new perks wouldn't be stronger than what either side already can possibly have with everything unlocked rounding out their toolboxes if they haven't unlocked them yet seems like good idea.
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Id love to see it, I like when people come up with buffs / nerfs / reworks and new concepts for perks even if I don't always agree with the changes they make because they always create new perspectives of what the game could be.
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Rework Hex:Ruin into a whole other hex perk, and make current Hex:Ruin basekit. Current Hex: Ruin isn't super strong, and is really THE first hex totem new players should be introduced to, so that they understand the potential strength of hex totems.
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My buff ideas:
Dark Sense: token system, press the button to spend a token and activate
Plunderers: 80% faster speed
Slippery meat: 50% speed on self unhook and teammates unhooking you
Small Game: reveals the killer's aura to all survivors for 10 seconds (dull), and 20 seconds (hex)
This Is Not Happening: great skills checks heal 10% of health
Premonition: When activates, leave no scratch marks or pools of blood for 5 seconds. Decrease the cooldown a little
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This still isn't a good argument for the existence of the very lackluster general perks currently in the game. If we're trying to teach new players the ropes, why have counter productive perks like insidious as a base perk to encourage players to stand still rather than apply pressure?
If we have the idea of "new players will be facing new players", why is shattered hope a general perk. It's a perk meant to counter boons, which is something none of the starting survivors have access to. It's USELESS against actual new players. The only reason I can think of is because they didn't wanna lock the counter behind a pay wall and this was never meant to be used by newbies.
You have distressing, which has no synergy with anything a newbie has access to and therefore is useless for all but a minor BP boost.
It's no wonder basically every newbie starts off leaning on NOED... Why WOULDNT you pick it when the alternative perks are this bad.
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I like these ideas they all bring solid changes to the perks
I think dark sense could very easily be 3/4/5 second reveal when pressing the secondary action button and after the last gen is complete you gain 2 tokens and have a ~3 second reveal on gen completion
Plunderers getting the pharmacy bonus speed makes a lot of sense making it faster to use allows for getting items in a pinch a lot better rather than preemptively going around the map getting every chest
Slippery meat sounds like a fair change for both an anti hook trade perk and something to help self unhooking
The time on small game could be a little bit shorter but I like the idea of it using one kind of information to see another kind of information
This is not happening might actually be a perk people use
The only one I think could be a bit of an issue is premonition 5s or no blood / scratch marks every 35~30 seconds and even maybe being more often with a shorter cooldown could be a bit much, both for new players who will wonder why scratch marks and blood don't show up from time to time and for the perks that its just better than since its less situational to use it, dance with me, parental guidance, poised, self preservation, ect all perks that have the same effect but much higher activation conditions and cooldowns because of how strong its effect can be used and synergized with
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It makes me wonder why they arent planning on making more general perks, hopefully its to instead focus on the ones that already exist but not much has happened. If anything the general perks should be on par, if not stronger, than paid DLC perks. Everyone has access to them, so they should be impactful without having to rely on buying a chapter.
Its a mystery how they can review every perk and have the data for it, and yet haven't touched perks like Beast of Prey, Septic Touch or Dying Light as examples. I wont even mention survivor perks when everyone who's played survivor knows them. (Looking at you Up The Ante, whopping 9% luck, and only if everyones alive.)
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I feel like even swapping existing perks with general ones wouldn't be a bad move. Swapping distressing with monitor and abuse for example. Distressing is typically only used when paired with various perks or TR related powers like Doctor's. This would give newbies an actual useful stand alone perk with M&A.
Could also swap TOTH with Hag's 3rd seal for similar reasons...
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Premonition could just not activate while in chase
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The reason why they nerfed it is because it was an unhealthy perk.
Using it in combination with something like Devour with certain killers and add ons made it practically uncounterable, and was just miserable to go against. Only reason why it wasnt complained about in mass is because not many people used it.
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I disagree with the notion of Thrill being unhealthy, I liked to go against Totem defenders.
I've seen some unique builds with it, from Monto's Russian Roulette build to killers who wanted a chance to protect their Old Hex: Ruin. I loved those types of games, the stakes were always high and it was more than just doing gens.
Actually, I think it was one of the most healthy perks in the game.
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Yeah that would be enough, just make it not cooldown in chases as well so you can't get it in the brief periods where you might lose chases
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It was also healthy in the fact that the killer put all their eggs in one basket, if they fail totem defense they lose their entire build, although things might be a bit different with using pentimento nowadays
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That is an interesting aspect of Totem defense builds with Thrill of the Hunt: the risk.
The killer is taking a different approach with their build and it can be pretty powerful, but that build can be removed. That creates a scenario where the killer wants to protect the totems, while survivors want to destroy them. I've had very fun games where that happened.
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What killer is it LESS effective on that was problematic then?
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Only one I can really think of is old School Billy with Rusted Chain and Begrimed Chain, (the healing debuff stacked) and simply slugging. What made it even more effective was the fact that survivors could only recover to 85% on their own instead of todays 95%
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Slugging doesn't give devour hope stacks, which was the perk mentioned that TOTH protected.
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Getting 3 stacks of Devour back then wasn't necessarily a hard task, especially with Billy.
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but there wasn't much of a point back then to get 3 stacks on billy when he already had an instant down and his chainsaw addons / power were much stronger
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I think Insidious should cause regressing gens within X meters to regress faster, while it is in effect. This would give it value in gen-camp gambits instead of it only being used for Bubba's Basement.
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Im talkin 2017 here where getting a chainsaw down without insta saw wasnt the easiest task. Back then (and up to his rework) Billy used to keep his chainsaw charge when he was stunned, meaning with Enduring he could just eat pallets no problem. Because of this Survivors gained a lot less distance, which made getting M1's a lot easier.
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I know about the 2017 billy, he didn't fully keep charge while stunned his charge simply decreased over time instead of being reset by a stun which is why enduring was used with it not as much for the aspect of stun reduction but the fact more charge is conserved from the shorter down time. But even if his m1s were easier with the right addons you could very easily out preform m1 especially for the time with "crack billy" and old tinkerer. With the stuff you could stack on him there wasn't really a point in needing that devour anyway since his chainsaw was more consistent.
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Im not saying it was his best option, but just because it wasn't doesn't mean it wasn't problematic
Skull Merchant is a more recent and widespread example. She was by no means a good killer, but she was without a doubt problematic
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Yes, but like... there is a huge difference between Skull Merchant and Thrill of the Hunt.
One was straight up broken, at least based on the information I've received. Thrill was completely fine, it didn't need a nerf.
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Skull Merchant is a more extreme example I'll admit, but that doesn't mean Thrill didnt have its issues
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Honestly, my friend, I can't see it.
I can maybe see the personal opinion of some survivors who didn't like to play around totems, or maybe killers who didn't bother to defend their totems. But in general? I think Thrill was one of the healthiest perks in the game, and I add its nerf to my colossal list of changes that shouldn't have happened.
A list which doesn't include Skull Merchant's changes, btw (it is best to avoid the confusion this time).
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Honestly, I don't know if I would have picked up the game as much as I did if not for perks like Jolt (Surge) to help with the early learning curve, new players will have a horrible time with next to no gen regression.
Base perks desperately need some buffs/tweaks to make up for what we're losing here.
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Yeah that’s not really why it was nerfed. If that was the case we would’ve seen it nerfed back when OG Undying was meta. It’s not a coincidence that Thrill was ”reworked” the same patch boons were added. The idea was to increase the Cleaning/Blessing time to make Thrill a counter perk, and the noise notif was taken away as compensation. Obviously it didn’t work (the increased time was too minimal to justify a perk slot) but it was never reverted once boons fell out of the meta.
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