Since Blight, Killer design went downhill
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How so ?
I only called mistakes Knight, Trickster, Twins and SM. Rest is fine.
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Show me the votes you are referring to, please. The only recent votes I found were the ones rating killers by how fun they are to play against. Billy has always been considered great to play against but playing as him is a different experience. And that is coming from someone who has mained this killer for 2 years.
I don't think a lot of people would rate Billy as that fun to play. At least not for more than one game at a time. After all, that would imply that his pick rate would be quite decent. But it isn't. He is always one the of the least played killers because he is extremely frustrating, which cannot be the golden standard.
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Excuse me? Go on google or youtube, it takes 10 seconds to multile rankings where poeple voted for most fun killer, older and new ones. Here is a random one that poped out instantly, apparently with half a million votes. The killers i named are more or less (suprise!) exactly where i placed them.
#11 Hillbilly
#4 Demogorgon
#3 Oni
#2 Huntress
#1 Blight
Not every vote is the same of course, but it all comes down that the named killers are placed very high. And they are also placed VERY high for survivors.
That is why, i call them the golden standard. And no suprise, they share similar design philosophys.
It is perfectly fine to have controversal opinions, but please stop questioning if it is true that Hillbilly, Blight or Demogorgon are the most beloved killers in DBD.
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That's a good 1 year and 8 months ago. But for the sake of this argument, I'll consider it as 'recent'. It is true that Blight is one of the most beloved killers in DBD (always ranked highly and a pick rate that reflects that, even though he is a dlc character) but the same can hardly be said in good faith when it comes to Hillbilly. He is one of the original killers, that everyone has access to and yet his pick rate is still abysmal. If he was such a great killer to play, then his pick rate would reflect that. That isn't controversial but a fact.
Also, number 11 (especially back then with only 27 killers) is in the better half but nowhere near the golden standard. If half a million people consider him fun to play, then it's a bit weird that we don't see him nearly as often as most of the lower ranked killers on this list. I follow the stats on Nightlight pretty closely and though they are not the most reliable source, it is notable that his pick rate is always less than 2% and barely changing.
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my honest opnion:
twins: they´re amazing, outplaying victor is always good, and kicking him hooly, the only bad part is the fact that vic can´t carry you to the hooks
trickster: 16 hits huntress, meh, but really good to play as
nemesis: one of the most chase interactive killers, really fun for both sides, and the tentacle is buged??? what?
pinhead: really fun killer to play as and sometimes ok to play against, dodging his chains is always so rewarding, good counterplay for both sides
artist: sometimes is impossible to survive but really fun in decent loops
old onryo: the old condemn playstyle was the most boring thing ever
new onryo: i don´t care about her
dredge: really well designed killer, no complains about him
wesker: generic dash killer, so he´s fun i guess?
knight: if you actually know how his power works he´s really fun to play against, manipulating his IA feels so good, but playing as him is just pain
old skull merchant: literally #########
new skull merchant: decent i guess
singularity: he´s the most boring thing ever to play against in soloq, emp? well, he just reinfect you in 2 seconds, drop pallet? insta pallet break, lose LOS? tp using cameras, outplay him and get distance? tp, jump window? insta vault or tp, you need your team to take hits or emp you? well, you´re in soloq so gl
but playing as him is not that bad, really fun
alien: learn gow to use turrets pls, put turrets in strong loops, generators, common paths and etc, and you can 100% dodge his tail if he´s not laggy, pretty fun in general
chucky: funny but boring to loop
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and ´´in the old days´´ blight was so bad, sooo bad
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I think i made my point about that already, so lets step back from more or less offtopic that one killer (Billy) is debateable or not, and go back to the actual topic.
Wouldnt't you agree that my statement killers went downhill compared to the past is in general true?
There is a thread about which killers survivor like and which not. Killer wale (?) made a big survey about that. And even there you can see that there are more hated killers from the post Blight era i am talking about then the entire rest combined. Sure, pre Blight has also some stinkers like Hag or Clown, yet not as many in comparison as the new era.
Now, since you made the argument that popularity is a strong indicator if a killer is liked: Which killers are popular? If we ignore Chucky and Alien since they are new, what are the popular killers? From the new era, Trickster (probably because of rework) is at 2,6% the most popular one, the rest falls off.
From the 10 least played killers, 6 are from the "new ara". Half of them. Twins, Artist, Singularity, Knight, Cenobite, Skull Merchant (thank god).
Personally, everybody can think of that what he wants. Its fine to like Skull Merchant. But the statement is, according to the people very true.
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The knight part killed me lol. Amazing visual and sound design but one of the most awfully executed concepts in the game. Only reason he's not at the bottom of the barrel is because skull merchant came out 3 months later
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Pinhead, Wesker and pre-nerf Chucky are amazing.
Artist is perfectly ok, you may not find her fun, but that's your problem.
Dredge could be better but it's ok.
Nemesis is a bit outdated, they game has changed, his tentacle power should cause you to lose a health state regardless of whether you are infected.
Onryo is terrible, both the old and the new one. As a stealth killer she is pitiful and basically relies on blink mindgames. People not understanding how condene works doesn't make her a good killer.
Knight is a good idea poorly executed.
Skull Merchant still maked me fell robed for that DLC, even if I used fragments.
Singularity is a combination of everything that is wrong with the killers design: poor gamepad compatibility, survivor-controlled power, little reward for a lot of effort, everything being slow and stressful, bugs, bugs and more bugs...
Alien would be decent if they hadn't left her power bugged since the nerf. Anyway, still a boring and unispired killer for such a license.
Twins, I actually enjoy playing them, but this game ignores them to a point where they feel out of place.
Trickster, boring for everyone.
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Sure, not everybody loves him, but in terms of chase, he is the by far most interesting and most fair killer to play against since a long time.
If we conveniently ignore the existence of the unwarranted 8% hindrance, sure...
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If Blight is overpowered wouldn't any killer compared to him seem bad?
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I wholeheartedly disagree with this post. Look, they aren't all going to be winners. That was true before blight as well. Nurse is a failed design (breaks the game). Hag is a failed design (too easily countered, takes too long to set up). Doctor is a failed design (the original skull merchant). Hell, I would argue blight is failed design too. He has too much mobility and too little counter play and add ons are too strong. Generally speaking, most of the killers post-blight are more complex in design. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But the fact they are still experimenting and finding new uncharted ground to make killers is impressive imho.
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Disagree honestly. Yeah there has been a lot of pretty bad killers but that’s always been the case (and Wesker, Singularity, and Chucky are honestly pretty good and fair now).
Trapper: So poorly designed that he’s been buffed countless times and is still bottom tier.
Wraith: Very popular among newer players but also very hated due to his hit and run playstyle. His release version was also one of the weakest killers ever created.
Hillbilly: was very well designed aside from Insta-saw. Now he’s a clunky mess.
Nurse: one of the most poorly designed killers. Breaks the entire design of the game and bottlenecks the balance of certain perks to the point she has gotten otherwise mediocre perks nerfed.
Myers: was pretty well designed for how the game used to be played but now he is so outdated I honestly would call he the worst designed killer currently due to how slow and punishing his power is yet Tombstone breaks him.
Hag: no one plays her. Unfun to play against, power encourages camping, unfun to play and heavily reliant of Corrupt.
Doctor: one of the most hated killers to play against despite numerous reworks. And let’s not forget that his release version was so bad he couldn’t even interrupt actions until his rework!
Huntress: for the most part she is perfectly fine. Her hit boxes though… also original Iri Head made her ridiculously overpowered.
Bubba: up until anti-facecamp he was massively hated due to how well his power worked with camping. Original Bubba was also so bad that you could outrun his chainsaw. No killer who’s power encourages camping is well designed.
Freddy: …it’s Freddy. Garbage on release, nerfed shortly, reworked into the most boring killer ever made with broken slowdown add ons, nerfed to once again to be garbage. And despite all the at he is still hated to play against because of how boring he is. Worst treated killer in the game.
Pig: weak killer who has to be constantly nerfed because of how abusable the RNG aspect of her power is. In no way is Pig well designed.
Clown: always top 3-5 most hated killers to play against on those polls yet somehow is still low tier. Really strong 1v1 but next to no pressure and hard countered by pre-dropping. And he gives some people motion sickness.
Spirit: was so, so, SO hated that everyone ran Iron Will just to counter her. Don’t forget Prayer Beads being near uncounterable, standing still was an actual tech, she had no animation for vaulting pallets, and had o audio cue for phasing. She’s pretty fair now but it took a long time to get there and is still pretty hated.
Legion: do I really need to say anything? Look at release Legion and see how that was probably the second most poorly designed killer ever created (just behind Skull Merchant)
Plague: okay for the most part. I don’t find her fun though and hate how she punishes altruism but everyone else is fine with her so…
Ghostface: Fine for the most part now. Has some problems with revealing. He was very weak originally though. Audio cue when nearby, 30 SECOND cool-down, revealed super easily.
Demogorgon: pretty well designed just a little weak.
Oni: very well designed and fair killer. Encourage slugging but overall I think he is one of the most balanced killers in the game right now.
Deathslinger: quick scoping meant he could zone without having to do anything. Pretty much a lose-lose situation for the survivor and the killer didn’t do anything. Now he’s just clunky.
Pyramid Head: zoning power was ridiculously powerful on release and he could face-camp his cages. Now he’s a clunky killer who’s power prevents him from being punished for tunnelling. Contender for worst add ons in the game as well.
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Fair enough.
Wouldn't you agree that my statement killers went downhill compared to the past is in general true?
No. I disagree. I think the killer design after Blight is way better than you give it credit for. Not every killer is the most beloved of all time and there are also some that I'd rather not have to play against but this is not unprecedented.
Twins: A good example of an interesting concept poorly executed. The reason they aren't played are their bugs and cooldowns as well as the fact that they aren't visually appealing to many. They are flawed but not a terrible design. Playing against Victor can be fun but some changes are definitely in order.
Trickster: A killer that will never be fun to play against but it's not like that is something new. Legion and Hag aren't fun to play against either. He has a solid player base and though I personally don't like him, I see how he would be fun for others.
Nemesis: Started a bit similar to Trickster in that many hated playing against him. By now though, you see a lot more people that claim they like playing against him or at the very least don't mind. He is a fun killer to play as and offers interesting counterplay. Not quite what I'd call a lose-lose killer because you do have counterplay that leaves you in a favorable position, if done correctly.
Pinhead: I never quite understood the argument that he was so horrible to play against for solo survivors. Especially now with the improved HUD, you have so much information at your disposal, that coordination against this killer is not hard. There are only so many reasons for a survivor not to work on objectives after all. In chase, he offers a lot of possibilities to play around his power and he is also fun to play for the most part. Sadly, there is always a new bug to make him unpleasant to play as.
Artist: Not the greatest killer to play against because normal looping doesn't work. However, her counterplay is still very much existent and dare I say even interesting. A lot more engaging than Hag in my opinion. She is also interesting to play because you have the ability to pressure survivors across the map and can play in many interesting ways. The key to her is to find ways to cut off survivors. Not my kind of killer and judging by her pick rate not that well received by others either but I can see why someone would play her and when I do, I have fun.
Sadako: I am too biased on this one to judge. I much preferred her old version. She was weaker, yes, but also more fun in my opinion.
Dredge: Has a decent player base and is also a somewhat interesting killer to play against. Not among my favorites but I don't mind him overall.
Wesker: Peak killer design. Fun to play as and against for many. In a very good spot regarding balance too.
Knight: Yeah... I don't like him. He is fun for some people but I don't like the concept of having an AI playing for you. Apart from that, there are so many things you need to learn about how he does and doesn't work, that I am never sure, if something is a bug or just the way he is designed. He would have been better received, if they hadn't botched his release that bad. I find him uninteresting to play against as well.
Slog Merchant: I hate her with a passion. She is in my opinion, BHVR's worst failure yet and that will not change any time soon.
Singularity: Good design in theory but the numbers are off. When survivors know how bad the numbers behind his overclock mode are, they should never get hit during that time and also don't waste any resources (even with 4 survivors slip streamed you can't get a hit). This makes the Soma Family Photo a necessity rather than an option and is the main reason why people use Coup de Grâce on this killer. Singularity is fun to play though and not bad to play against.
Alien: Fun killer to play as and not too bad to play against when you actually use the turrets and mind game. The hitbox is inconsistent though (seems to change almost every patch), which makes the Xenomorph less appealing to play and then there was this BHVR moment, when they decided to revert a buff, that they had never actually tested. Weird decision.
Chucky: Was one of my favorite killers to play as on release but the removal of his flicks now forces you to play around with the scamper a lot more, which in my opinion is less interesting for both sides. Slice & Dice has a lot less utility than before, which greatly limits the for me most fun component of this killer. Next time they release a killer, I'll wait for the first nerf before I buy them.
That is 8/13 (~61.5%) killers I like to play as and against. This is close to 2/3. So it's really not that bad.
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Freddy: …it’s Freddy. Garbage on release
I strongly disagree, my friend.
Freddy on-release was excellent, in my honest opinion is the only perfect killer BHVR has ever designed. And trust me, no one understands Freddy better than I do.
The only problem one could possibly find within him is the same problem most people had with Old Freddy: the inability to stop people from doing stuff right in front of you. But that weakness doesn't hurt him in the exact same away as it did after the nerf because he had other things going for him.
16 meters terror radius, no delay between a survivor leaving your TR and their aura being revealed, only 1 second of movement speed penalty after using power, dying survivors not being automatically woken up after being healed back to the Injured State... those are good things, close to what Freddy should be.
If only people had taken the time to learn how to play against him, instead of crying and whining for nerfs... he would still be here. Maybe the Incapacitated status effect would have been given to him eventually, maybe not, but he would still be here. The great tragedy could have been avoided.
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I completely agree that he wasn’t anywhere near as bad as people said, he was my main after all. I listed it because he was treated like garbage and not thought of as a well designed killer. His pre-nerf release version was perfectly fine. I personally don’t think any killer is really poorly designed except for Skull Merchant and a couple others. I was just showing that you can make an argument for most killers being poorly designed :)
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I used to like to go for chase twins but ever since the nerf to victors fatigue that has become less and less viable as those 2 seconds on top of a 6 second fatigue do eventually stack up.
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Ah, I see.
That is good to know :)
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Agree with this post. Behavior has always had hits and misses, but the density of killers that were fun for both sides was much, much higher in the early days of the game. In my eyes, the following are mandatory elements of good killer design:
- Scary
- Simple concept (you should be able to finish your first match as/against a killer and know roughly how their power works; mandatory wiki reading is lame)
- No free hits or other lose/lose mechanics (e.g. zoning with old Deathslinger, sticking your sword in the ground as old Pyramid Head)
- No obnoxious time wasting mechanics (e.g. base kit deep wounds; time wasting in itself is fine when done well, like for Pig)
From Deathslinger forward I would say only two killers check all boxes: Blight and Dredge. Unknown and Xenomorph are close.
Before Deathslinger, most killers did this. Legion is the obvious exception. Doctor is probably another one (annoying time wasting), and some might also say Spirit (not intuitive for survivors that she can't see you while phasing but can see blood and scratches). Everyone else checks all boxes.
I get it's harder to keep doing original unique designs with how big the roster is, but this should not be a hard bar for them to clear.
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