Should Killer feel like the power role? Does Killer feel like the power role?
There has been a lot of discussion surrounding the role of Killer and whether or not it should or shouldn’t be the power role. On one hand you have these supposed Killer win streaks that frustrate people. On the other hand this game is a Killer power fantasy so a Killer bias is absolutely to be expected.
Therein lies the conundrum. How much power should the Killer have? Should the Killer be a threat, but not enough of a threat to lock one or more Survivors out of a game? Should the game go to a scoreboard type of game without eliminations? Wouldn’t that destroy what the game is about?
What about when Survivors are the power role? It does happen; is this an allowable prejudice? If the Killer is stronger then surely the Survivors should enjoy the spoils of their victory, sore winning and all.
However, the difficult truth is that Killers do not want Survivors to escape, and Survivors do not want Killers to kill. In a game that contains a Killer bias should it instead be a Survivor power fantasy with a Survivor bias? After all, (I say this sarcastically) why put the fun of one person above the fun of four?
The Survivors if playing correctly can beat the Killer. There exists a pathway to victory. This tells me that ultimately teamwork itself is the power role. The problem is that it is difficult to manifest the discipline required to achieve this teamwork. Impatience, selfishness, lack of awareness etc. get in the way of Survivor victory.
If the Killer bias of 60% kill rate were to go away, say down to 50% or lower, would DBD still be DBD? Personally I am of the mind that no it will not be. In my opinion the reward feedback loop of this game thrives on difficult escapes. There is an element of challenge in escape since it does not come easy. It keeps players coming back for more. When escape is achieved it feels highly rewarding. If escaping became easier I believe this whole game would unravel and deteriorate.
I get it, losing doesn’t feel good. When you as a Survivor know that you are better than the Killer as an individual it feels awful to lose to someone you know is below you in skill. It feels awful leveraging all of your skill for your team only for them to let you down and get you killed. But again, that is the nature of this asymmetrical team game. Anything different than this would change the game so drastically that it would be unrecognizable.
Should the Killer feel like the power role? Should the Survivor feel like the power role? If there should be no power role what would that look like? 50% escape rate? Would increasing escape rates cheapen the joy of escaping? Can this game survive if escaping felt blasé?
PS: This isn’t even getting into the idea of retaining the horror theme of the Killer being the main threat, which some individuals believe can be sustained even if Killers were to lose their 60% kill rate. Again I personally do not believe it can.
Comments
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Do you believe that Killers should be the power role?
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That is where it currently is I believe, 40/60.
However this is a point of contention within the community. I agree with you, I believe it should be 40/60 as well.
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I agree with the 40/60 rule in terms of DBD strength.
Problem right now as I see it, is most of my games on either survivor or killer are either a 4k or a 0k, it's rare in between unless killers do things the community seems to hates like tunneling, proxy camping, etc. And I don't particularly think it's a perk or killer power issue, I see them as more balanced than they were a few years back.
If anything I think maps need better balancing in some cases.
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LOL
Your fact hits so hard it's not even funny. Why can't nemesis push them away?
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There has been a lot of discussion surrounding the role of Killer and whether or not it should or shouldn’t be the power role. On one hand you have these supposed Killer win streaks that frustrate people. On the other hand this game is a Killer power fantasy so a Killer bias is absolutely to be expected.
Every data we have shows the killer is the power role, not only winstreaks. From comp where it is expected for some killer to 4K 2 gen left to lower tier killer where 6 hook stages are a decent outcome. 6 hookstages is still basically a draw. Also the general winrate shows 60%, which is huge favour for killer.
However, the difficult truth is that Killers do not want Survivors to escape, and Survivors do not want Killers to kill. In a game that contains a Killer bias should it instead be a Survivor power fantasy with a Survivor bias? After all, (I say this sarcastically) why put the fun of one person above the fun of four?
No sarcasm needed, its the truth. Puting the fun of one above the fun of 4 is what we have right now. At least when you the type of player who wants to win.
Is this justifyable that killer have a much better outcome then survivor? Maybe yes, playing killer feels a lot more stressful and sweaty for some reason then playing survivor. Some killer mains dont feel rewarded when they dont get 4 kills most of their games. Many survivors dont take a loss as hard as the killer. I think this is the only argument that i would accept.
Objectivly speaking tho, it is completly nonsense to let the game as it is right now or make it even more killer sided.
For me personally, every loss feels the same tho. As long as i had a great game, i dont mind loosing on either side. But that is just my opinion.
Should the Killer feel like the power role? Should the Survivor feel like the power role? If there should be no power role what would that look like? 50% escape rate? Would increasing escape rates cheapen the joy of escaping? Can this game survive if escaping felt blasé?
That depends on what power role means. Everybody has its own idea off that. For me personally, the optimal way for this game can only be 50/50 - for ALL skill levels. Which is close to impossible. But while it is impossible, i wont eccept just a braindead 60/40, you know, just because.
The problem with DBD is that it does not know what it wants to be. First it was a "party game", then it shiftet into ballancing more. Then they listend to the crying killer mains (no offens, but that is what happend) and made the game killer friendly. Then they went to ballance the game for a more competetive inviroment while half of the stuff we have is still crazy inballanced.
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in my opinion, this killer should be something that sets the rule for the game from which survivors should play, not the other way around, because killers are the main source of content in this game, the more varied and interesting it is, the better, and whether the survivors die in the match or not , the most important thing is the match itself, and not its result, will the survivor be unhappy if he dies in the fight against an interesting killer, in an interesting match? I don't think.
but at the same time, the survivors, of course, must have a way to defeat the killer, but not too strong. All these divine windows should not exist, generators like what determines the phase of the match (such as 5 generators early, 3 mid 0 late game) should be taken under stricter control, as well as the time spent surviving in the match (there should not be an opportunity to ######### in the first hook and the tunnel is also a problem) so yes.
If you perceive dbd as a party game in which people come primarily for emotions - killers should be done as the side of power, with all not even the most balanced decisions.
this is a terribly controversial answer to a controversial question
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You seriously asking this or just joking? If survivors were the power role then good luck finding a match when noone is willingly turning themselves into a punching bag for survivors.
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I think Killer should have more power than survivors and i believe there should be some sort buff killers get if they are struggling based on gens completed to survivors hooked. This could be speed buff until a certain hook criteria is met or information to assist the killer in maintaining pressure. Currently it seems the way to play is to tunnel the first survivor out immediately to maintain control/pressure.
It's hard to really address the issue without raising more issues though or making one side mad about it but for a fun game i would say they need something to make it so the killer is not down and out after some quick generator completions early on.
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Then they listend to the crying killer mains (no offens, but that is what happend)
I appreciate the respect. Sincerely.
For me I have been on the side of completely destroying the Killer as a Survivor. And honestly, it just wasn’t fun. It felt wrong. It felt boring to me. Completely having my way with the Killer as a Survivor felt like the game was broken. Ironically it feels more fun to die trying to escape as a Survivor than to completely bully the Killer (Which again I have done before).
However I understand that these are my own personal feelings and I may be in the minority. I’m sure there’s plenty of players who would love to bully the Killer all day everyday. Just for me personally it doesn’t feel like a fun game doing that.
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There is definitely friction behind the idea of Killer being the power role. Some people say it is unjustifiably unfair, some say it is a justifiable bias.
If I may ask, how do you feel about the Killer being the power role?
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All of your ideas sound very reasonable. I agree with you.
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I'm with you here, I enjoy to die trying than surviving with no effort. Kinda realized it when I'd go against pre-change Sadako and easily escape them with no real issues or pushback because I knew the matchup and played her a ton as well.
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How I feel about it? Almost good until I saw the latest roadmap. Playing killer in this game is stressful enough as it is and since BHVR is deciding to kneecap killers in 2024 then killrates will plummet. They also said in AMA they want to 'rework' Twins by removing slugging. That's all they're going to do. Why would anyone care about this game at this point?
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Yes, the killer should be the power role.
And that doesn't mean it should be impossible to escape. Remember the quote from No One Left Behind?
"Yeah, no #########.
But I believe we can outsmart and overthrow him if we work together.
Don't be predictable and selfish!"
Thats it, actually. The survivors should feel like they are in a dangerous situation, from which they can escape only if they work together.
And the killer, well:
"This is my world. And you can't ever leave." — Freddy Krueger
"He stops at nothing."
"Shining in the darkest dark, his eyes pierce the night and sting your soul."
"If you do not stop and catch your breath... she will."
"The night assists me and it's endless here." — The Ghost Face
The killer is the danger, the monster lurking in the fog. It is a role which has to feel threatening. And some people will say this feeling will disappear at some point, some will never feel it, but the game should make an effort to provide it to you.
And that goes beyond the killers themselves, obviously. The scenario and overall atmosphere of the game is also extremely important, something current DBD severely lacks. @Atsuka_Anarchy had a good discussion about this topic recently.
Give me Legion on reworked Coldwind and it is nothing special.
Give me Myers on Old Shelter Woods with a lot of fog and now we're talking!
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...We feel like we're seeing this kinda topic and question pop up more frequently...
We feel the killer should be the hunter in the fog if that makes sense. The killer should have an inherent advantage over lone survivors and be a threat, but survivors should be able...not fight back but not be completely helpless either at least as a team (a single survivor should never have the power to overcome the killer). We want a tug of war for the power where each side has to work for it instead of relying on perks or RNG maps. We might be rambling atm, but we want the killer to be a threat survivors need to worry about without having them hopeless (that would kill any sense of playing the game in our opinion) but with survivors not having to much power that theres nil threat from the killer (thered be no point playing killer then).
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Personally I agree. It would be great if Killers had more ways of enacting and enforcing pressure in contrast to the more unpopular methods that exist.
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You have a good point, which i completly agree on. The atmosphere of the game has changed, but not for the better.
I dont think high winrate is much off a reason why killer radiate menace. It is more the lack of atmosphere these days. When i look at old McMillian maps for example, with fog and grim light, that was something! But now, we get some strange jungle map or somewhat dull outer space maps with Nostromo. Also the reworked maps are in the atmosphere department no where near as good as they used to be, pretty much every map.
I miss the creepy settings to be honest. I am aware that this wont be like in the first days of course, but it would add some stuff to the game that no powerful killer, no matter how powerful this killer might be, bring (back) to the game.
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Your take is very reasonable. I agree with it. I especially agree that the Killer should have an inherent advantage over lone Survivors.
Do you believe that the Killer can be threat without the 40/60 bias? If there was no Killer bias and the survival/kill rate was 50/50, is the Killer a big enough threat?
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I will always always always support a scarier atmosphere for the game.
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Why should any side be a power role? It just doesnt make sense.
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Indeed, my friend, the atmosphere is one of the things which suffered most with recent changes.
Let us say a killer player selects Singularity and gets a 4k. There is a very clear difference between doing that on reworked Coldwind and pre-rework Coldwind. The new maps are very lacking in horror, and the older maps which were excellent at it are ruined.
And I miss them too, very much so. I believe it is about time to ask BHVR for a classic mode / pack / settings / anything that gives us access to the older maps with the horror atmosphere. And to increase the levels of fog in the new maps, at the very very least.
Same, my friend. Same.
Especially because we used to have it and it was beautiful. I cannot stand the way things currently are.
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"If the Killer bias of 60% kill rate were to go away, say down to 50% or lower, would DBD still be DBD?"
The killrate only increased to 60% with update 6.1 (2022). I think it's fine at 60% but yeah, the game would still be DBD as the average killrate was like 51% before that (iirc).
At the end of the day, it's a game and a power "fantasy" will only go as far as your skill takes you. If being the power role means that a person who picks up the game today should be able to have the upper hand as killer against survivors who have played the game for alot longer, then it wouldn't bode well for the health and longevity of the game.
Also the argument seems to come down to kills vs escapes. Alot of people play this game without either in mind. Fun is subjective. Some people find kills that are too easy to be boring, and others find escapes that are too easy to be boring. Your question is very black and white and I don't think there is a proper answer besides the kill rate being at a level that keeps killers satisfied and enables survivors a *chance*, despite the differing goals of whatever team mates they've been matched with.
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Let me ask a different question. Does the 60% kill rate hurt the game? If it went to 50% is this negligible?
Even if the kill rate was 10% the ability to eliminate still rests with the Killer making them the power role. Or does it?
Is there a fear of being eliminated? Should there be a fear of being eliminated? Does kill rate factor into this fear? If so, how? And how much is enough?
Btw I agree that people play for different reasons and get different satisfactions out of different aspects of the game unrelated to kills/escapes. I just think that the number of players who care about kills/escapes may be the majority.
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Killer already is the power role. I convinced some of my friends to play dbd with me the last days and we rarely got out. I admit that they aren’t the best, but the killers weren‘t either.
I Play both roles and killer a bit more, because playing survivor feels miserable and killers are far too strong besides some. I‘m not the person as good as those survivors in videos, but I would say I‘m good.
When I play killer besides of some Autohaven maps most times it is no real challenge and it is too easy to get kills.
Shrinking the maps is also very bad in my opinion and makes the far too long gen times even more of a bad experience. I hate the knight map rework. I really liked the map before and now it’s my most hated map.
Nobody talks about why everybody gen rushs! It‘s because you got no chance if you don‘t play this game 24/7 and there is nothing else for survivor worth doing with everything being nerfed.
I would want to play this game more with friends, but it is just not enjoyable (on survivor side). So I mostly only play killer, which ends with a 4K or rarely with 0 kills, close games are rare. It‘s only stomp or get stomped.
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I respect the points you made.
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Depends on many factors. It mostly depends on how good the killer is, and even then if it’s a semi-decent 4 man you certainly won’t be the power role in that situation. It all depends on a lot of factors. I win most of my matches until I actually get a decent 4 man, which then quickly reminds me that killer is FAR from the power role at high level.
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The power role should be which ever side has the better players
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the 40/60 is 40 for all survivors correct? swfs and lone survivors? We were never clear on that. Regardless, we'd say the killer can be a threat at 50/50, but we'd say not a big enough threat for the killer.
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Idk I started playing this game thinking it would be like actual slasher movies where the killers/murderers always lose. It’s now 2023 and for some reason we want killers to win most of the time. I don’t think that’s what made slasher movies great. Kinda boring if the killer always wins.
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Why would people play the power role if it doesn’t feel like the power role? Or is the Killer being the power role a misconception?
Playing the “antagonist” is one thing.
Playing the “antagonist” that is set up to lose is just being a clown (Not The Clown Killer)
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It's important to distinguish what it actually means to be the 'power role', as quite a few people seem to think it means 'the role that always wins', or 'the overpowered role'.
IMO, the killer is the power role, since in general gameplay, survivors have to respond to what the killer does, as opposed to the other way around. In that way, the killer unilaterally dictates the game. The killer can bodyblock survivors, but not the other way around. The killer can incapacitate the survivors, not the other way around. The killer determines where survivors can go, not the other way around.
There's a couple of exceptions that need to be ironed out: Loops that are too strong, and the killer becoming vulnerable when they pick up a survivor. I do think those need pruning.
As to whether or not the killer SHOULD feel like the power role: Yes, but to a limit. There's a general gameplay expectation that I think the killer should be pressed to adhere to, in order to keep the game playable.
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Every killer in a 1v1 situation with players of equal game experience should be way stronger.
This is my opinion. A chase should not go for more than 1 Gen if the killer doesn't make heavy mistakes.
In regards to the current state of killer is this difficult to say. There is a huge variety in power level amou g killers.
Killers like Nurse or Blight are pretty much always the power role in a trial.
Killers like Trapper, Freddy, Billy and others are always behind. In their matches, they are the underdogs fighting the oppressive opponent.
This is how it is right now in my opinion.
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Killer is power role right now
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Where's piggy?!
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I'd say it depends.
If the survivors have the better map, she's definitely part of the underdogs, because she doesn't get a down before 3 gens pop.
If she has a good map and a good start, she's in the lower end of the middle if you ask me. Alright with some problems. A little less than on par with survivors.
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What killers?
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Xeno, Nemesis, Wesker, Sadako and Chucky. I also mained old Freddy as well. My kill rate around 70 - 80%.
But however my escape rate is probably around 20 - 30%
So i really don't know how people are saying killer is not power role. Do we need 100% kill-rate for this
I forgot to add, i am also playing Clown so much as well.
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As Firellius pointed out it is important what we mean by "power role". Some people use to describe the currently dominant faction when it is the faction that dictates most aspects of the game. OP even tried to attribute this term to a concept which is pure nonsense.
Killer absolutely is the power role. They have the power to remove players from the game. This is a pointless discussion.
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In over 90% of pub matches, killer is the "power role", as it is rather easy to decimate a casual swf group or soloq if you just camp and tunnel your way to victory, though this wouldn't even be necessary in most cases.
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The second question can't be answered quite that easy.
If you are playing perkless and addonless Wraith, then you're definitely not the power role. Same thing for most killers (maybe except Nurse?). If you use everything at your disposal and you play against a very capable group of survivors (SWF or solo doesn't matter at that point), that also use the strongest stuff, then you will mostly be the power role in so far, that you will be very oppressive, have a small room for mistakes and have a decent chance to win, if you play relentless. Playing nice more often than not results in a loss, though because you limit your own efficiency to the point where the survivors will outpace you.
This however varies from killer to killer. No matter how good you are as a Trapper, you will not outperform a somewhat decent Blight.
I personally would rank killers and survivors like this:
0) Comp SWFs without any limitations (pretty much unbeatable but never happens)
1) Comp Nurses and Blights with normal comp rules
2) Comp SWFs with normal comp rules
3) Comp killers in general
4) Normal public SWFs, that play to win
5) Normal public killers playing to win
6) Casual SWFs
7) Casual killers
8) Casual solos
9) Meming SWFs
10) Meming killers
Sometimes the lower half can switch around a bit depending on the map.
I think that killers should be the power role overall. In a 1v1 game there doesn't need to be a power role but in a 1v4, you have a group that finds strength in numbers against 1 more or less isolated player. That can lead to easy bullying and takes a lot of the fun away from one side, which in turn leads to longer queue times and possibly less fun for the other as well, when the game is in perfect 50/50 balance. With the killer being a bit stronger (significantly enough to make a noticeable difference but not so much, that playing survivor feels like an automatic loss) the game is in a pretty good state for the most part.
A lot of how DBD feels depends on how you approach the game and your mind set. If you go into it expecting to win every match with no trouble at all, then you're in for a rough time. If you go in and just try your best, knowing that a lot of it still comes down to rng and factors outside of your control, then you'll have a much better time and the game becomes "you-sided".
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I wouldn't simplify it that much. Trapper is not the power role and neither are Clown and Freddy.
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In my opinion, the power role is the one that wants to win the most. Therefore the one bringing the better stuff.
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Some killers are weak but that does not change the fact. Killer is power role. Kill rates favours killers. It was around 60% when they shared it last time.
If we were looking for power role, killer is power role right now. If people really asking 80 - 90% killrate, this will never happen. There will be zero reason to play survivor and it's already so bad atm.
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Any killer with a skilled player dedicated to that killer can be the power role. My Trapper is often in full control of the game, and I consider that power. Same could be said for any killer on the roster. Well, except Freddy. Sorry, @GeneralV :P
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No matter how good you are, if your killer limits you beneath what the survivors achieve, then you are not the power role. That doesn't mean you absolutely cannot win (sometimes a single down can lead to everything falling into place) but it does mean that you are not in control and rely on the survivors making (sometimes massive) mistakes instead of creating opportunities for yourself.
Then you are lucky not to go against the kind of people that control your match. I agree that you get pretty far just by playing good but at some point, you simply cannot keep up anymore, if your killer is too weak.
I definitely agree with that bit about Freddy. It's sad but the survivors have arguable more control over his power than Freddy himself.
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I dont wanna be that guy but, please get rid of that habit of using "power role" wrong.
"Few but powerful" vs "weak but numerous". Thats why the sole killer is the power role and survivors is the numbers role. Its a design conceptual term, not even related to the balance.
But for the sake of this discussion, I think its better if the game favors the killer a bit.
Edit:
If we take the targeted average killrate of 60% and assume each survivor gets an equal chance to be killed, that would mean all 4 survivors would each have a 40% chance to win. A killer would get a ~48% chance for a win (community consensus that 3k or 4k are a win)
A 50% escape chance means a 50% chance per sirvivor to win while a killer win happens ~31.25% of the time.
The first seems fairer to me.
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Except Nurse and Blight, all killers have limits. Those limits are what makes them balanced.
Oni is so strong killer but his power is limited time and he need to built it.
Wesker is so strong killer but his limit is 2 charges.
Chucky is very strong killer but his limit is long cooldown.
Huntress is best range killer but her limit is numbered hatches and movement speed.
I can list more. Those killers needs limits. If you remove those limits, they will be new Nurses and Blights.
Problem ls some killers have so much limits and they need to be looked. Billy, Trapper, Pig, Myers, Freddy etc. But overall killers are just fine.
Game is already favoring killers with 60% kill-rate. Some people just want to win all matches because killer need to be "Power Role". And then what's the point of playing survivor when you know there is no chance to win?
So like i said, killer is already power role and they should not change this so much. Weak killers should take some love however.
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Comp Nurse and comp Blight are expected to 4K every single game in comp, it is only a matter on how many gens survivor can finish. No limitation does not change anything by the way. Even with best perks and best items, Blight for example is still on top. So what makes you think comp SWF is more powerful then Nurse/Blight?
Normal SWF, as we already have proven in a different thread, can not win as much as killer. SWF has not a better outcome on average then killer. Especially not when you take top tier killer into account. A strong pub SWF never ever has a higher winrate then a strong pub Nurse. Just simply not.
You are also using the word SWF incorrect. Just because my brother (who has like 200 hours in this game and does not give a damn) and i group up for some silly game, we are expected to beat top tier nurse? I dont know about that logic.
About your bullying argument: True, survivors can try to be annoying and rude in endgame chat, but so can killer. Right now, the killer is the Bully, if they want to, because you know... they have the power. Does it matter if Survoirs are 4 people when they get their ass kicked? I get what you are saying, taking the heat from 4 different people can be annoying - but hear is the problem: What are they supposed to do? Survivors, technically cant do ######### besides repairing generators, which does not hurt the killer. Mean words in endgame chat can be ignored and the chat can be closed. Tbabig is just a survivor moving up and down.
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I think that neither side should exclusively be the power role because then players would flock to the side that is inherently more powerful. This was an issue in Friday the 13th , and to deal with this issue the player that would play the role of killer was selected randomly. I would rather get to choose the role that I want to play.
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I have yet to see any comp group play without limitations. They aren't allowed to use the best items, they aren't allowed to use any item twice or more, certain perks are banned (although I am not sure, if this is still common), every perk is only allowed twice, maps in tournaments are always favorable for the killer etc.
Forgive me, if I doubt that there is no reason for these limitations.
The point about you and your brother playing in a SWF and not being able to beat a top tier Nurse is noted but honestly, that doesn't say much. It only shows that playing in a SWF is not an automatic win, which is a good thing. If your opponent plays better than you (you implied that by saying: "top tier Nurse"), then they should win. This is what balance means.
If you want me to make this ranking more accurate, then here you go:
0) Comp SWFs without any limitations (pretty much unbeatable but never happens)
1) Comp Nurses and Blights with normal comp rules
2) Comp SWFs with normal comp rules
3) Comp killers in general
4) Normal public SWFs, that play to win
5) Normal public killers playing to win
6) Casual 4 people SWFs
7) Casual killers
8) SWF / solo hybrid (2 SWFs)
9) SWF / solo hybrid (3 SWF, 1 solo)
10) SWF / solo hybrid (2 SWF, 2 solo)
11) Casual solos
12) Meming SWFs
13) Meming killers
14) Meming solos
In this case however, I would need to go into more detail because a 3 people SWF can carry their 1 solo team mate pretty far, if they are that good. 2 SWFs can also be extremely good and coordinate with each other and surpass a casual killer. It all gets muddled when you go that deep. That is the main reason I only listed "SWF" (which I mainly considered 3 or 4 people in a SWF). You are correct though, that I used the term a bit too broadly.
The reason I brought up the point with bullies in DBD is because bully squads were a real issue in the past (now not so much). Bullying can be everything from exploits, certain perk combinations, flashlight macros (patched), excessive tbagging from multiple survivors (imagine how you'd feel when you struggle and then get ridiculed by multiple people at every turn - not great I presume), to people that solely focus on making it impossible for you to progress (ineffective against experienced killers but the worst thing for beginners). I get that killers can be very annoying too (although, I can't think of many more options than animation spamming and excessive slugging from the top of my head, feel free to list a few more though). The main difference between survivors and killers is that survivors can always force the match to end. The killer can't.
If a killer is facing a bully squad, that can just toy around with them, then the killer will not be able to end the match at will. A group of survivors however can. It's not great but when the killer is a jerk that refuses to end the match, you can force them to down you, which will result in you dying eventually. The struggling killer from earlier, that can barely get a down (much less a hook), is unable to do that. I mean, what are they going to do? Suddenly repair these gens themself? Unlikely.
To be clear, I do not condone bullying in any form and I am all for removing it from the game. However, the normal gameplay loop will always be impacted by any changes made to tackle this issue, so it's hard to fix without creating new problems that could potentially be worse for the game overall.
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