Are the tunneling somewhat the survivors own fault?
So, I'm currently a Survivor main myself, and I really hate being tunneled and camped. There's no denying that this is getting out of hand, but...
I have been playing Killer matches to complete the current event, etc.
The response I got when I played relaxed and didn't intend to kill anyone was toxic gameplay, like repeated fast vaults to annoy me with loud sounds and "EZ - Noob" in the endgame chat. (And this was not just one game.)
That really made me not want to go soft on the survivors again.
With this kind of behaviour, on top of the exit gate camping also with the only purpose to annoy the killer.
I cant help thinking that the hard tunneling and camping are the survivors own fault.
Killers have to play hard not to get spit on, wth is wrong with some people to treat others like that?
This is not a game people play to have fun - its disrespect on a personal level. (old news, i know but i had to get it out)
EDIT : A lot of people seem to misunderstand what im trying to say.
I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR TAKING OUT YOUR FRUSTRATIONS ON SOMEONE ELSE...
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I do remember when i was a killer, after a few sweaty games, i was in a high gear without thinking of it, and i played merciless against the next groups i met.
I did this without thought ^
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Im just telling what i have observed, and why i think its happening.
Comments
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So you're taking out your frustration on a completely different person who had nothing to do with the toxicity you received. Fantastic idea.
This is just meaningless us vs them.
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A survivor can cause tunneling if they are toxic from the start, rushed a save or ran directly towards the killer.
But that doesn't happen every trial. Some will camp and tunnel at 5 gens regardless of the survivor's behaviour.
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I wish it would only be "some" 😣
There are days where i do not play a single match against a killer who is not tunneling at 5 gens.
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Same, my friend. Same.
The amount of tunneling recently is absolutely insane.
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Like. That's so sad. But I always keep my otr and ds on me. Oh you wanna tunnel. Imma make you work for it.
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You've been a victim of bully survivors.
Unfortunately this game always had a problem with toxic people either killers who just camp, tunnel and let people bleed out instead of hooking them or survivor fast-vaulting far away from the killer, tbagging or flash light clicking.
BHVR added an anti-facecamping mechanic to avoid facecamping but to be real it doesn't really work that good if someone is really committed. A toxic letherface will still facecamp you and simply m2 you once you rescue yourself.
I suggested some changes myself here to add penalties for toxic behaviour. Sadly there is not much you can do against them. I've had snowball fights with survivors without a problem but I also had lot's of bully squads and other toxic survivors.
I personally annihilate toxic players if possible to teach them a lesson but those people rarely ever learn. Some people are so miserable the only way they have fun in a game is by ruining the fun for others.
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If someone is trying to draw attention to themselves, accidentally (or intentionally) runs into the Killer after being unhooked, or is doing something to annoy the Killer, yes, it absolutely can be.
But the situation you described is absolutely not a valid reason for it. That would be like slamming the door on the person behind you because the person in front of you didn't hold it open for you. The Survivors you decided to take it out on aren't the poor sports you went against last match. Taking your frustrations out on them accomplishes nothing but perpetuating toxicity. The actual people you feel have wronged you are long gone and don't know how you've decided to lash out.
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I get what you guys are saying, but the fustrations dosnt go away just because you join a new game, people adapt to what they meet, just like with perks, also with playstyles. I saw a lot of toxic play when i tried to be nice.
I would compare this to a glass of water, every time people bully the killer it gets filled a little, at some point it floats over and the killers might not care.
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So you're response is to perpetuate a toxic behavior that you already find despicable.
Congratulations, you're now just as bad as them.
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Can you identify when they're going to be toxic from the start of the game? How about when 1-3 gens pop? More often than not, its too late by the time you have any offenses. I'm not saying they deserve BM back, but coming out of the gate as efficient as possible is unfortunately where the game is for both sides anymore, the first few minutes are often too crucial to the match.
I get what you're saying, and I agree that BM shouldn't be carried over from a previous game, but you have no way of knowing if your opponent is going to BM unprovoked, so there's less incentive to go easy on them until after you're in a dominant position. And of course, you have no idea if you pumping the brakes at that point is still going to be met with sore winners/losers.
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If a specific group of survivors decided to act toxic, shame on them, it is bad sportsmanship on their part. But the next group you face has nothing to do with the previous one.
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It -can- be their fault if they run back into the killer or if they choose to play agressively after being unhooked.
In your example though it's certainly not all survivors fault. There are certainly groups of survivors who are just trying to annoy the killer and make sure he has a bad ime, but most survivors are just people playing the game.
I understand feeling frustrated by a toxic group of survivors and taking it out on the next group but it certainly isn't a nice thing to do.
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I do not doubt that some people do this, but it still does not make it a valid reason. You would still be retaliating against the wrong person/people. They don't know what happened in your last match, they can't tell why you decided to play that way. They weren't there and it wasn't their fault. To them, you're just some person who happens to be playing like that.
Would some people stoop to their level anyway? Probably. But I would hope those same people wouldn't complain about toxicity when they themselves are doing their part to spread it.
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Hold your horses, plz stop projecting this on me.
- im a survivor main, but im a former killer main.
- i dont play toxic (at least i try not to do so)
I do remember when i was a killer, after a few sweaty games, i was in a high gear without thinking of it, and i played merciless against the next groups i met. Looking in hindsight, im sorry for that, but as i stated i didnt think of it.
Further more, as fast as gens pop there is not time for the killer to wait see if the players will act toxic, when lets say 3 gens pop because the killer are taking it easy they toxicness will start and now its too late to do something about it. (in my experience it starts when some survivors know they have the upper hand).
Another example is when i was new to the game and trying to play Ghostface, as soon as the survivors found out i was a baby killer, they stopped doing gens and started bullying me. And there was nothing i could do... after a few games like that, I stopped playing GF for a very long time.
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I fear we might be focusing on two different points here. I don't think anyone disagrees that this might be the reason some people play the way they do, whether that's as a Survivor or a Killer.
But as to whether or not it's those Survivors' fault, the answer is still no. The group you decided to tunnel from the get-go did nothing to cause you to play that way, so there's no way it could be their fault. You can point fingers at the past group for encouraging you, but it's still ultimately you making that decision. The idea that they could potentially do something similar is not adequate justification to pin the blame on them; you still acted first. At that point even if they do start playing super sweaty, it's impossible to say whether they would have done that to begin with or if they're only playing that way because you're trying to tunnel someone out.
Toxicity is a mess, and getting involved is never going to make it better. You can blame it on the last group all you'd like, but that doesn't make it the next group's fault.
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I kinda get where OP is coming from.
Once you get so many games of BM and toxicity in endgame, it becomes more and more difficult to tell if the next set of survivors will be less so. And the way this game is presented and the speed the game can go, killer doesn't have a lot of time to figure out if it's best to tunnel someone out so they don't look like a 'baby killer', meanwhile I've seen survivors move the goal post on what a good killer should do constantly and it does effect killer's mindsets and perpetuates the toxicity if the killer acts on it.
I don't condone aggressive tunneling, camping, or toxicity of any kind on either side, but I can understand why it would get under people's skin on either side and make them more competitive because the last group made you feel too weak. It's also easy to say 'grow thicker skin' and ignore the BM and toxicity, but we all know people will play this regardless and complain and continue the cycle and eventually effect the balance of the game, examples being the removal of old hatch mechanics up to anti-facecamp.
It also doesn't help that survivors often blame the killer for their loss or win regardless of the outcome or skill, or killer blames survivors for the same instead of the possibility that they're working against weak game mechanics or being critical of the worse map designs clashing with their killer, or even they didn't optimize more than the survivors. It's just how online multiplayer is, always will be.
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Maybe the person spamming vaults or gate camping had a scummy killer last game, and that is clearly your fault.
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may i suggest you read the whole thread, i kinda already did reply to this?
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' matter, just like commas do.
"Is tunneling the survivor's fault?" - Depends, did that specific survivor do something to prompt you to tunnel them specifically? Then probably, yes. Except if you're petty enough to count "they touched a gen!" as "something".
"Is tunneling the survivors' fault?" - No. Categorically no. It is simply not possible to transfer the responsibility of one group of people to another group of people. If you still do, then that's called "collective punishment". (Now, this is a video game and not an armed conflict, but I like the definition the Geneva Convention gives when it defines it as a war crime, so ima leave it here: “the indiscriminate punishment imposed collectively on persons for omissions or acts for which some or none of them may or may not have been responsible”)
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I do remember when i was a killer, after a few sweaty games, i was in a high gear without thinking of it, and i played merciless against the next groups i met.I did this without thought ^
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All I'd say is that if I was feeling triggered by what those types Survivors were doing, I'd play something else.
You only carry the frustration. It doesn't go away, because those Survivors who were acting that way have still gotten away wih the impact they made. No matter how many Survivors a Killer tries to "punish", those who caused the pain are still one up on you always.
Take time out, do something else or play something else for a bit, then come back to the game when the feeling has subsided. Living well is the best revenge.
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You are pigeonholing one group into "it's the entire survivor community's problem".
If you let those survivors influence what kind of match you're going to give the next team, I'd say that's really on YOU. I'm not saying that they aren't complicit but at the end of the day it it is your actions that determine that and it doesn't make you any better than they are.
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Which isn't unusual - collective punishment is also a quite natural way to think. - But that whole "without thinking" and "natural impulse" is the issue. It may be natural but it's absolutely not constructive. Which is why humans have decided to remind themselves and each other about these things and be deliberate. --- Otherwise we'll spin in circles and how does it go again? An eye for an eye until everyone is blind.
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the way you're describing it, absolutely not lol. people in match A were toxic after it ended, so you tunneled people in match B? that's on you for choosing to be toxic to unrelated survivors as revenge for a game they weren't even in.
sometimes survivors put themselves in situations where, as a killer, it makes sense to go after them after they got unhooked, but tunneling a survivor to preempt the possibility they are toxic in the end screen is your own choice, don't put that on survivor players from previous games
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While this is all correct, I think TC is coming at it from a different angle.
Rather than passing on toxicity to the next group, they're talking more about a generalised culture shift, with their 'glass of water' analogy.
Regardless of who is perpetuating the toxicity, it's got to a point where it's effectively normalised. So while it's still wrong to take out your frustrations on the next group, what difference does it make when you receive toxicity in 90% of your games? The chance of that toxicity landing on the wrong party is slim, but the chance of you receiving it in the one game you don't give it is very high. It breaks spirits.
I don't personally see it that way but I can understand it.
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At some point i became aware, and i geared down and i also gave an apoligy in the endgame chat, and i have been trying to be aware since, but some times i slip. And I could just imagine that other killers do the same as i did.
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I dont think you understand what i mean, im in no way advocating for taking out the fustrations on someone else.
If that is what you think, please read some of my replies in the thread.
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Also this is a part of the point im trying to make. ^
Im not agreeing with that way of acting, but i can see it and i think that is a part of the problem.
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I read your thread.
I never once said you were ADVOCATING for anything. I said you are letting yourself be INFLUENCED by the "BM, Bullying, words" whatever you wanna call it from OTHER people to determine your future actions.
You don't fix a WRONG with a WRONG. If you think that's the way the world works then you're part of the problem.
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It's hard for me to fathom that sort of mentality tbh. I get that everyone is different but it's so easy for me to just finish a game and move on. Like, if I get slugged and humped on the ground until I've bled out, I don't carry that with me to the next game. That's a you problem.
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I agree, and im not
Im just telling what i have observed, and why i think its happening.
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Its not that easy, when the killers get that like 8 out of 10 games. Why would they not adapt to that?
People change perks all the time to adapt to new play styles, why would this be any different?
Im just telling what i have observed, and why i think its happening.
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How often do you think survivors experience BM from killers? Just curious.
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Tunneling is a product of the game's design it's not the killers fault it's effective or the survivors
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Its no one's fault, its everybodys fault. A killer could see a survivor click a flashlight and deem that deserving of a tunnel. Or just tunneling because they believe every survivor deserves it. A lot hate it, but thats the name of the game, each side will do anything to ruin their chances of "winning".
So ask yourself, do you think they deserve it? Either way its your call whether to start tunneling or not regardless of the answer.
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Mhhhm --- maybe the word "fault" is not actually the word you want to use in this context - coming from a semantics point of view. I think most people have some kind of instinctive understanding of semantics, which might be why there is so much backlash in this thread. So lemme try to make explicit what usually remains implicit: The party who is at fault is the one who bears the responsibility for an action and is the one to blame for the existence and the consequences of that action. - Conversely, that means the killer, in this context, is not to blame and not responsible for the actions they take. In terms of agency (who decides what is done) the word fault points to the survivor as the side with agency; the side that could change something and mend the mistake.
trying to establish a causal relationship without judging, I.e. without putting responsibility on someone, is hard. It usually requires some more words. - From what I gathered so far it seems that you meant to say/ask whether/in how far a killer's tunneling is the result of too many bad social in game experiences. Which opens up a whole host of other questions: If so, what does the prevalence of tunneling mean then? Or: is that maybe one of many reasons? Also, does that actually excuse tunneling?/Justify "paying back in kind" - with the caveat that it's not the same people? What would be a way to find a constructive solution?
(sorry for the rambling. It's so late that it's early again. I should sleep.)
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Its not that easy, when the killers get that like 8 out of 10 games. Why would they not adapt to that?Because two wrongs don't make a right.
There's a difference between something being understandable and something being right. @Peanits used the example of someone slamming the door in your face. If you went through a day and 8 out of 10 people slammed a door in your face it would be understandable that a person might emulate that behavior, but that doesn't make it right.
It's also worth remembering when playing killer that the survivors are four individuals, and likely don't know each other. Given there are four survivors the chance the that one of them will BM is much higher.
We also get to a chicken and egg situation with your OP, did the survivors BM, causing the killers to BM, or did the killer BM, causing the survivors to BM. It's a hypothetical that there is no way you could get an answer to.
If I was just going off a personal observation, my experience would disagree with yours. I sometimes play all out and other times pretty relaxed. The chance of encountering BM doesn't really seem to be any different.
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I never said it was right and im not defending that playstyle.
For as long as i can remember, survivors have been Tbagging and exitgate camping just to annoy the killer, and it was more a rule than not that this happened every game.
When i started playing, yeah sure there was Sluggign, Tunneling and Camping, but not as bad as it is now... not even close.
And i raise the questions, if the killers had enough and are giving back with the same coin as they for so long had? (fight fire with fire).
Dont worry, you are making sense, English is not my main language so i cant tell if there have been a "slipup"
But yeah that is essentially what im trying to say.
As for the solution, i dont have any - other than hooks start working like Pyramid heads Cages of Atonemen, to get the hooked person away from the killer.. But i was assured that this was a bad idea when i suggested it a while back.
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if a survivor had the audacity to actually load into a match, they obviously deserve to be tunneled.
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i dont see how this comment have any relevance to the topic, its just toxic
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"With this kind of behaviour (...) I cant help thinking that the hard tunneling and camping are the survivors own fault"
Killers would tunnel even if all survivors played in the most "polite" way possible. My point is that nothing exceptional needs to happen for a killer to tunnel. People tunnel because it's laughably easy to do and gets results. Blaming survivors' actions for tunneling is nothing short of silly.
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I think tunnelling would ONLY be a survivor's own "fault" when;
-they intentionally use the basekit borrowed time to take a protection hit for another (that's there for you to get away, not exploit)
-if they have the hubris to do a gen right next to kiler/stay close for a flashlight safe right after getting unhooked. Like that is fair play and all, but the risk/reward is you're submitting a request to be tunnelled by sticking close to killer 😛
Personally, when I do tunnel it's usually because I am put in an unfairly high MMR match. The other night (Jan 2), I was getting swf P100s after swf P100s (I am P34). They'd finish all the gens by my 3rd chase (even if I'd end chases quick). Out of 10 games I played that night, 8 were 3-4 person escapes. The only 2 times I won were when I tunnelled, and those weren't easy either. I seriously felt helpless, like I was playing against tourney level players, and at that level I don't think anyone's complaining about getting tunnelled. It's expected!
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It was not as bad as it is now, when i started playing. But when 8/10 matches are with very toxic survivors if the killer loose, i do understand why they "do everything in their power" to win. They still get trash talked, but less if they win.
Im not a saint, if people tbag at every pallet they drop, even if they dont get a stun, then they are asking for trouble, and they will get it.
I have also had games when i was a killer main where i changed my mind and let everyone go because they played nice and i had fun. So your statement are not entirely true.
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but this doesnt make any sense. how is it toxic to run towards the killer? thats literally giving the killer an advantage by getting them into chase quicker or by having 1 less person on a gen, rushing a save isnt toxic either...
Sure toxic is a definition, i would say that tunneling, hook camping is toxic the same way clicking the flashlight used to be. I mean its completely unnecessary and doesn't really benefit anyone. (hook camping is not always toxic im talking about just camping the first person you down for no real reason)
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You are actually weaponizing the basekit BT.. That was not the intented use of it, it was to give people a chance to get away.
If anyone does that when i am the killer, they become my new prey.
Yeah, i agree that hook camping and tunneling is toxic, as is exit gate camping and tbagging.
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And i raise the questions, if the killers had enough and are giving back with the same coin as they for so long had? (fight fire with fire).1: Because it won't do any good. Adding more toxic behavior won't actually change the other toxic behavior. If your right and toxic behavior leads to 'fight fire with fire' this is just going to lead to survivors being more toxic.
2: Again you are viewing the survivors as a group/community. The killer has no way to know if the survivor they are being toxic to is toxic or an innocent bystander.
When i started playing, yeah sure there was Sluggign, Tunneling and Camping, but not as bad as it is now... not even close.I disagree, I think its more of a perception thing. Current problems always feel worse than old problems.
You are actually weaponizing the basekit BT.. That was not the intented use of it, it was to give people a chance to get away.If you want to tunnel someone who rushes at you and uses the BT, go ahead. Very few people are going to disagree with you.
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- I get that, and i also agree (as already discussed, taking out your rage on others are not the way) but i think the nature of most most people, if they feel constantly bullied, they will find a way to get back at the bullies at some points. And about 80% of the survivor community, stand and camp the exit gates, just to drag time for the killer. Some even push blame for their actions to the killer by claiming "the killer can just push us out" - Well, they can just go out on their own.
- True, but still 8 of 10 survivors, that i have seen (as stated above) are toxic exit gate campers if they win, just to demean the killer and drag time when they have won... some even split and camp both gates, to be extra toxic. I get why this pisses the killer off, it did me too when i was killer.
- Why should one side act like saints while the other acts like that? its not just a low ammount of players, but the majority that are like this. I do get why people get enough and "strikes back".
- Its a lot worse now, im getting tunneled and camped almost every 1/4 games, it was not like that when i started playing, a freind of mine had a break and he was also surprised on how popular that game "style" is now by killers.
Im not saying it is ok, but i do have an understanding why some people had enough of being the nice guy.
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Just a note, P100 isn't the best indicator that the survivors are higher MMR than you unless your at like...P1. Killers tend to spread their bloodpoints out more than survivors, so it's pretty normal for ppl to see 1 really high prestige survivor character that ate the majority of a person's BPs.
If your playing a killer character that's P34, seeing high prestige survivors sounds about right...
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Is how I choose to play the fault of the other side?
no. Simple question, simple answer. Both sides.
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I don't agree. It's been a consistent indicator for me. I haven't done what you think most killers do. P34 is highest I got on any character (rest are around P3~6), so going up against a P100 means at least that person played this game x3 more than me (and/or better than me) to have gotten x3 BP.
Plus I am talking about more than one P100 in a lobby at a time.
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