Your thoughts on forced 4K by Killer
When the killer slugs the second last survivor to secure the final kill, even when the killer doesn't know where the final survivor is at that time and might be wasting a good chunk of time searching - Do you think this is okay or bad game design since the downed survivor is forced to just lie there knowing the match has already been lost but cannot end his part of the match like when on a hook?
Comments
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I think it's lame but there are cues I give the final player like I don't heal myself or I start to shake back and forth like no because more than likely they are camping me.
That being said I have been running boon of exponential and if it's still up and close I crawl to it and heal myself pretty quickly and make a quick escape. Downside is with matchmaking most players don't know that this perk exists and if they get knocked down they won't crawl to it. More experienced though it has really worked in our favor though.
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The hatch is the bad game design in this scenario, since it forces the winning side to make such a decision in the first place. I get why the hatch exists (and wouldn't remove it without fixing its reasons for existing,) but adepts and some challenges require a 4k, which can lead people who wouldn't otherwise slug to be near required to.
As for the people who actually do it without a legitimate reason, they belong with the hide and seekers, they deserve each other. Its just a battle of stubbornness at that point.
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Is it really forced? Unless the killer has an idea where the last survivor is or has a perk to do so it's a hide and seek game on a timer.
Now a forced 4K is closing the hatch right next to two doors. That's a 4K with no out.
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Unless if i am doing killer adept or 4 kills challange by tome i won't do it. It's boring. It's just wasting time for both sides. 3 kills is already W for killer.
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There should be no hatch. You are the last? Auto sacrifice. Your team lost. It is what it is.
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I almost never do it.
I don't think it is bad game design and I understand why killers do it, but a 3k is already a victory in my book. Not need to waste someone else's time.
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Yes, it's pretty much forced, because you could first hook the downed survivor instead of go looking for the final survivor while leaving the other survivor slugged. You are forcing the hand of the other player at that point to play hide and seek.
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I honestly don't understand why some Killers feel like they have to get the 4K no matter what. Just hook the second to last Survivor and go hunting for the last. Most of the time, you'll still get a 4K if you want one. I just want these games to be over when I'm playing Survivor. Sometimes, the Killer will slug so they can give their preferred Survivor the hatch, but that doesn't happen too often. I'd rather just go next.
Personally, I tend to avoid the 4K and let the last Survivor go, because I know my "reward" for the 4K is to go up against teams that can loop me for days. They'll be bringing all the busted items / perks too, so I'll get 3 hooks max with no kills. That's not fun for me. But if that's what you want to play against, then be my guest and keep slugging for the 4K.
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Forced hide and seek. Not 4k.
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Its bad game design that makes it necessary if the killer wants a 4k. If the devs want to make changes that change how this works I'm fine with it but since they designed it this way then killers are fine to do so. There's nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a 4k.
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Hatch has always been a terrible design. It incentivizes killers to play this way to get the 4k, and it incentivizes the survivors to "give up" and hide instead of do their objective if they think the game is a loss so that their teammates can die and they can get the hatch. Creating negative incentives on both sides.
And that is when it works incorrectly. When it works correctly, it gives the survivors multiple second and third chances after they lost the game. Think of it this way. For a survivor to escape through the hatch in a typical game they must:
- Have failed to finish the generators.
- Then they have a 50/50 shot of finding the hatch against the killer
- If the killer finds it first, then they get a 50/50 shot of opening the gate, some RNG makes it so the killer can't patrol both gates, and certain killers can't defend both gates.
So basically, after failing their objective, then failing their objective, then failing their objective a THIRD time is the killer given the 4k. Seems a bit silly to me.
A better solution would be, once the last survivor remains, it teleports both sides to a small map similar to the past Halloween event with a pallet or 2 and some windows. Then:
- The killer's movement speed is set to 115
- The survivors movement speed is set to 100
- Bloodlust is disabled
- All perks are disabled (survivor too)
- The killer power is disabled.
Then its a simple survival game. The survivor now has 2 minutes to run the killer and they get to escape, if they don't, the killer gets the 4k. Simple, single second chance, that is skill based and not RNG based that allows both sides to have the chance to express their skill.
Then they can fix the survivors hiding and waiting for the teammates to die problem by giving them crows if they don't work a gen for a while.
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I think to fix it, they simply should add the option to "give up".
If you are on the floor for more then 30 seconds and only one other survivor is alive the option "press m1 to give up" appears which simply leads to instant bleed out.
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It's pretty boring, yeah, but there are archives and achievements in the game that require a 4k and it's the only way to not get screwed over by hatch.
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Eh It doesn't bother me either way if someone wants the 4k they have the power to go for it. Its on a timer so it'll end eventually.
Typically if slugged like this I try and crawl to a common hatch spawn location and hope for the best. Been lucky twice and actually crawled out hatch. I've also been in the scenario where the last gen got done and adrenalin saved my butt. So its not like every avenue to victory or continued gameplay is cut off in this scenario.
It ain't over till all the blood has been spilled.
I don't think providing auto death mechanics in this scenario really adds anything. Basically all that will happen is people with auto die to give the last player hatch or games will be cut short removing any chance for escape when down to 2 players if one gets slugged.
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It's mostly just kind of sad, sweaty killer behavior, imo. If I don't have at least a good idea where the last surv is, I'm just hooking the second to last and letting what happens happen. Life's too short to lie on the ground for four minutes, or to waste that time scouring the map.
Of course people can play that way if they choose, but I just think it's kind of pathetic.
Post edited by Thusly_Boned on5 -
i never do this as a killer but i only do it if im forced too if I have a "Challenge" to kill certain amount and or obsession, let me tell you there is a lot of these.
Dont take it to heart blame the devs on these challenges when it does happen.
it is like the the whole unhooking challenges when survivors basically kill themselves to get it done :kekw:
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It's ultimately down to what the player as Killer is wanting from the game. Perhaps they are wanting to see how many 4Ks they can get in a row. Perhaps it's a challenge. Perhaps they want revenge for something or to prove a point. Perhaps they just see it as their objective.
As a Survivor, I don't begrudge them. Sure, it can be a bit dull for the person floored, but sometimes it has backfired and the wait isn't long normally. It is a bit frustrating if the other Survivor is miles away though.
Personally as Killer, I won't got for a 4K like this unless a) I down the penultimate Survivor and I am positive the other is nearby or b) for a challenge. It's not important for me, but that's not to say for others it is. Just depends on the player.
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There are various ways to play the game and hiding/stealth is a legitimate way to do so. This forces everyone into a chase, one of many facets of the game, which might not be everyone's strength. You might be one of those players who thinks the only valid part of the game is looping like an F1 driver, but you'd be a minority.
The hatch exists to ensure survivors don't just give up the moment one survivor is eliminated.
If there are multiple gens left to repair, but only 2 survivors remain, and you know you're not going to outrun the killer in your little sudden death gauntlet, then the game is already over, at 2 survivors, so you give up.
If you give up at 2 remaining survivors, then as soon as it's apparent that the 2nd survivor isn't going to last until the final gen is repaired, you may as well give up at 3 survivors remaining. So now tunneling is a surefire way to ensure a 4K.
The hatch is fair, it's 50/50. If you can 3K once you can 3K again, so even if the last survivor gets hatch one game, chances are they won't in the next one. But DbD players want instant gratification, every challenge has to be acheivable in a single match without throwing said match or it's not fair.
At this point with all this sweat and toxicity over 4Ks, I think I'd rather have the hatch always spawn right under the final survivor and guarantee at least one 'escape' (with no mmr gain don't forget), while similarly having the exits block after 3 survivors escape. Guaranteeing no more 0Ks or 4Ks alike, preventing endgame slugging and excessive exitgate teabagging (last one out's dead). SWFs would sign up knowing at least one of them is dying, so being sacrificed is at least somewhat normalised, so there's a little less salt over dying in a freaking murder game. Killer always gets at least one kill, and there's always a 'final girl'.
Post edited by Seraphor on1 -
But the current implementation of the hatch literally does encourage survivors to "just give up and hide"
When the game goes south and there's 2 survivors left and the game is "over" at that point, it is not fun for ANY of the players for people to just hide, and wait for their teammate to make a mistake and die in hopes of getting the hatch. Causing games to just be a hide and seek for 5-10 minutes nobody doing anything interesting or having and fun is super boring and needlessly extends the length of the match.
Also saying the hatch is a 50/50 is true, but the entire mechanic at the end is more than that.
Survivors lost the gen game
Then they lose the hatch game and the killer closes it
Then they also get to go through the gates.
So the killer has to "beat" the last survivor 3 times to land a kill on them, the survivor is being rewarded for losing.
Now, hide and seek is a valid playstyle, but not when there are 2 survivors left and 4 gens left to be done. At that point the game is just over and should end quickly instead of wasting everyone's time.
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Extremely boring
I can’t believe people still do this 4 years with the game having endgame collapse
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of course they force their kills? just like survivors forcefully get 1-2-3-4 escapes? what does "forcing a 4k" even mean should they ask for it, like?
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I only ever slug for the 4k if both of the last survivors are in the same gemeral area and I see them. Not gonna play hide and seek.
If I have a 4k challenge or adept I'll take a hatch offering and try to keep it in mind but I'm not too upset if I don't get the challenge first try - just an excuse to play another round
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Depending on how the match unfolds, as long as there are times when I have to get 4k to get the 4k to be rated, and as long as there are players who sound endless noise notifications until the killer comes in front of me when I try to get one of them out of the hatch or gate, or write "ez noob" in the chat, as long as time permits, I willI will go for the 4k as long as time permits.
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^ This
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But why though? The hatch is balanced as it’s completely RNG dependant, which essentially means the killer has just as much chance of finding it first as the survivor does.
Even if the EDG existed without the hatch, “auto sacrifice” (as you put it), shouldn’t exist. I say this because from time to time I’ve been the last survivor with all gens done and actually managed to open the gates and escape. Your suggestion is unfair as it suggest the killer should just get an easy 4k, when a number of games end with the final survivor being able to escape. In fact, if you’re the last survivor and manage to open the gates, I think there should be an extra reward for this as it’s not easy (the killer will often just patrol the two gates until they see one of them being open).
Your solution is basically “the games over for me so it should be over for you, too”. Being the last standing survivor is an achievement in itself, and therefore they should be given at least a chance to escape. Plus, you’d have more survivors “just give up” if there are only two left and multiple gens left to complete. Where’s the incentive to continue playing? Knowing full well if your team mate gets sacrificed, you will get auto-sacrificed, too. Might as well go AFK as I’m going to die anyway… you see the problem?
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I don't slug for 4k, if I sacrifice the 3rd player and the 4th is still somewhere, its game on for the hatch. More often than not I give the hatch anyway.
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The only thing that awaits them in high MMR is misery. If they want to subject themselves to that then so be it. Sucks for the person on the ground though.
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So what if a single survivor escapes, there’s literally nothing on the line my guy. You’re forgetting that DBD is not a competitive game and the things you’re suggesting would make the game even more dull. RNG is what keeps every match from playing out the same
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There should be no end game then. If survivors finished all gens? Auto lose. You lost. It is what it is.
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I don't do it for the simple reason that I find it boring (unless I see the 4th survivor when downing the 3rd of course), but it's whatever. If people want to do it that's their decision and as a survivor I will play it out.
It is pretty funny how strangely common it is for people that do it to get mad if you actually play for hatch/gates instead of just taping down W and running at the slug and serving themselves up on a silver platter though. Like, completely unhinged slur-spewing actually bannable levels of mad.
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I don't do it. It's super boring.
I play around hatch. If I find it, it's boring gate - game.
If I dont find it, I dont care.
Can't blame someone for doing it though. It's the best result for the killer role. You can't blame someone for wanting to achieve the best result.
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People are so hellbent on getting a 4k when it isn't necessary. When I first started playing killer I would slug for the 4k but now idc, it's boring and who cares??? I'd rather just have the 50% chance of getting hatch. I don't slug for the 4k unless I saw where the last survivor was, cause otherwise it's boring for everyone and a 3k is perfectly fine and you can get very similar points with a 4k an 3k, many killers be greedy
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Completing the gens is a requirement for opening the exit door. When you get out -- its an end.
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Killing all four survivors is the requirement for a 4K. You don't get the last one for free.
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talking about requirements and free while you are here defending hatch is kind of... interesting.
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Killing 3 of survivors is not the end then. You need to catch 4th. Game is not gonna give you last survivor for free. Too bad, you will need to work for it.
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It's a colossal waste of time, honestly. The killer doesn't even get that much out of it, though any challenge or achievement that's still banking on a 4k should be reworked.
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It's equally free for both sides, it's a 50/50.
Removing hatch means the 4th kill is 100% free for killer and any 3K automatically becomes a 4K.
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no, hatch gives the last survivor a chance to escape they would never have otherwise.
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Chance.
50% chance.
You're asking for a 100% guaranteed free kill.
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For me, I don't like slugging for the 4k like that because it's pretty boring- And I'm a killer main saying that-
I, honestly, feel like it should be made to where if there's 2 survivors remaining and the killer leaves one on the ground for too long instead of hooking them it just automatically spawns the hatch in early so that the last survivor at least has a chance of escaping. (Also picking up and dropping the survivor would not reset that timer for hatch spawning in.)
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It's boring.
Though it's always good for a laugh when I'm that last Survivor and the killer comes into the post-game chat like I'M the one who chose to waste THEIR time.
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why would they need an extra chance to get a free escape after a lost match? how can you think the 4th kill is more free than rng escape out of nowhere lol
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Basekit Unbrekable for when there are 2 survivors left in the game asap
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If its not a competitive game, why does MMR exist?
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Problem is that whoever the last survivor is didn't necessarily fail. Whatever happened in the match cannot be put only and exclusively at their feet. If you want to do that, fine, but you have to admit that that survivor had literally 0% chance to 'succeed' to begin with, considering one survivor cannot do 5 gens and the gate by themselves.
The hatch doesn't need to be 'fair' to the killer, the killer already got everything they wanted out of the match by the time it comes into play.
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being last alive doesn't reflect survivor's performance at all so they aren't relative. they might have hid all game or just happen to be last alive while being useful all match and taking necessary aggro also. that doesn't change the fact that survivor side is a team, and if they lost they lost, as a team; everyone in it. you don't get lp after you go 20/4 something in a lost match in league do you? same thing.
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This is what I don't understand about the mentality of some killer mains. I get that some people are hard to beat but seriously you are not meant to win every match. The fact is you need 3 times the amount of survivors than people playing killer. Given that there has been a bonus on survivor since Chucky came out says that they are lacking people wanting to play as survivor. The slugging in general has gotten out of control along with tunneling and camping. With killers constantly slugging at this rate Unbreakable will become basekit. Without survivors you don't have a game, they make cosmetics mostly for survivors, killers don't spend money on stuff like survivors.
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But a platinum player going up against five gold players with five iron players in their wake pulling them down doesn't make that platinum player suddenly a sub-gold, does it?
If the survivors are supposed to be judged as a team, then 1Ks should be turned to 0Ks with sacrificed survivors suddenly springing back alive and getting out for free, too.
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So then they need to make camping imposible at end game. Why killer is getting free kill when they lost a match?
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