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Nurse will never be balanced with her base-kit
Comments
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The game should be balanced around top-play. the more concerning part about blight and nurse is the 700 winstreaks and 1500 winstreaks on blight. that at least shows that blight and nurse over perform in matchmaking environment. The only question is whether this is because those character are over-tuned or because typical soloq under performs. I am more likely to lean on latter portion because strong players can escape nurse/blight however it is not crazy to perhaps think that these characters might be a tiny bit too effective in the hands of competent killer player. that is my impression on @MikaelaWantsYourBoon post.
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Idk why people would want to balance this game around soloq
Killers would all get nerfed to wraith level bad and they would still overperform in public lobbies
Does blight have op addons? Yeah
Does nurse have overtuned addons? Yeah too
Are their basekit ok? Yes, too
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Kaboom 💥
We come to the crux of the topic. Nurse can't be played around the same way other killers can be.
Like any killer power that undermines what many consider a "typical" or "normal" game of DBD. Its easier to call for nerfs than it is to adapt.
I feel like some players won't be happy till every killer can just be looped in the same way no matter what and they never have to worry about any additional mechanics or outcomes messing that standard up.
The great comedy surrounding this is the rationale for making the game less dynamic and more predictable is often that its boring to play the more dynamic and unpredictable parts.
"I want the same things to work against everyone, the gameplay to be standard across all games and not have to adapt or think about how I play, otherwise its boring" 🙄
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Great, it should be balanced around top play. So when are we going to do something about literally every other killer in the game struggling against top tier survivors, because as it stands only nurse and blight are capable of playing against those teams. And yet looking at the future it looks like BHVR is yet again catering to the "average" solo survivor instead of doing something about the top level balance.
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When can you finally understand that balance top level means Blight & Nurse would cut down their strength at least 40% to bring them down to 60% kill rate because they have 100% kill rate? While Trapper Myer around ~55% would be buffed by 5% at maximum.
Or are you thinking balance around top level means Trapper Myer should have 1700 win streak?
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In what world do you think that nurse and blight have a 100% kill rate? That is ridiculous. Also no, i think the game should be balanced so that the best trapper player in the world can win 50% of the time against a SWF team comprised of hens/ayrun/j etc.
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Sadly, thats not how "average" work.
At MMR 10 (assume 10 is the top), if there are Nine teams have strength of 10, and One team have strength of 12, the killer's strength balance should be ~10.2
If you want a killer character to be the really equal to a team that happens to be only 10% of the other side, you would get 100% win rate against the rest of 90% team. That is not balance. The Devs wants at least 16 out of 40 survivors able to escape, not 2/40.
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Ok, play blight or wesker. Nurse requires almost no effort to get over her little skill hump at the beginning and then it's just free.
Blight is a top of the line killer, nurse is just people wanting to get crossed and turn their brain off while 4king into the average 4 man swf. Pure muscle memory while safe blinking.
Nurse is not the same as swf at all, not even close. SWF varies in skill level and even the good ones can get dominated by any A tier killer or above.
I do agree with your takes somewhat generally but nurse is not designed for this game.
She gives no gameplay to the survivor OR HERSELF unless the map allows for it. If safe blink is viable on a tile it's a free hit every time.
You mention balancing for top mmr like it doesn't take 3 games for a semi-competent video game player to just hit the threshold on nurse and win every game. Before I picked up blight my friend coaxed me into playing nurse and guess what? I lost the first game and then proceeded to win the next 20 something games in a row. The killer isn't hard and the killer doesn't have to think. Her power level isn't excusable, pretty much any A tier killer requires more thinking than her.
The only answer to nurses win rate being so low is a combination of her low pickrate and how many people pick her up to try and stomp every game but end up just being terrible because they just generally aren't good at playing the game. Why aren't there a bunch a nurse mains who stomp every game right now? Because the killer is boring and you could just play blight or wesker. Who would play nurse when those two killers exist? Fun is subjective but limiting the chase options of the opposing side to nearly null for 99.5% of survivors leaves both sides to desire anything.
You almost can't take the stats seriously in this game. I am a stat god in league and know where pretty much every champion should be located based on their pick rate/win rate/ ban rate and design.. In recent years I've picked up several champs who should sit somewhere between a 47.5-48.5% if you want them to be balanced due to their kit and I am not mad about it, I just understand that's correct.
The killer isn't hard, people are just horribly bad and the people who are good at her have far, far more fun and FLUID options. The good players aren't playing her, their playing anyone else.
You gotta remember the average killer player is only getting 2-4ks because they are getting a free health state in a deadzone they likely didn't even know existed at the hook.
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That's not how that works, because now you are assuming that the best trapper player in the world is going against the average survivors and that is not the case. Those average players are going against average level trappers. Meaning that the win rate still remains the same. I'm saying that when the 2 sides are equally skilled, regardless of their level, that the win rate should be around 50%. Likely with a +/- 5% or so, which is a pretty decent standard to shoot for.
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But that is my very point. You can't say "balance for the average player" but then think also nurse needs nerfs, those 2 ideas are completely incompatible with one another. If you think you balance for the average player, you are talking about your sub 100-hour andy that bought the game over christmas, might play it for a few weeks and then never play again.
You are even doing it here by assuming something that is not in the data. Trying to rationalize and explain away why nurse has such a low kill rate. And that doesn't matter. You state that you want to balance the game around the average, so you need to look at that reality and face it and stop trying to rationalize it. If you truly believe that, you MUST believe that nurse not only doesn't need nerfs, but that she actually needs massive buffs.
This is why i am trying to convince you that your idea of balancing for the average is not a good one. Because you and i (a nurse main) both know that nurse is not healthy for the game, and needs a complete rework (not just a nerf). But the point still stands, that if that is the case, you MUST also acknowledge what the top tier survivor teams are capable of doing. Look at tournament play. Why do you think tournaments heavily restrict what survivors are able to do, what perks they can bring, what items they can bring? Why do you think they create point systems that aren't just about kills and escapes, creating a different scoring system to determine who wins? Because at that level, survivors will win every single time in a match with 0 restrictions on either side (assuming the killer can't play the only viable killers, nurse and blight)
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Nurse is the exception, not the rule.
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In my opinion, no killer should be S-tier. S-tier killers in a game where most survivor queues are solos is an overkill. Nurse, Blight and Tombstone addons for Myers need to undergo a big change.
Of course, changes need to happen on the survivor side, too.
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On your version, assuming Blue=Killers (Big one is nurse), Red=Survivors, Im pretty sure the second picture is how the community wants the "solo swf"-gap to be closed.
Now i shouldnt be so cynical about it, but I think this one is close to our community's mindset too:
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??? Why did you not understanding my drawing, then assuming it, and lead the meaning of chart into another way that fits your assuming?
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Your drawing can be read any way because its not specified which color represents what. If you didnt want people to interpret stuff into your drawing you should've specified which is what. I do though apologize for the confusing shortness of my post. On a technical level though, blue=killer makes more sense as there are real mechanical differences on killers compared to swf/solo where theres only player skill and third party apps as differences, making it more sense to have survivors represented by equal symbols.
I do understand you wanted to showcase that the "killer power" should be based on the average "survivor power"; like 1 strong swf for each X survivors. You point out that putting the "killer power" equally to the "rare" 1 strong swf is a bad move that'd hurt the other X survivors. But the reverse is also true. SWFs are an outlier that overperform over the average killers and are only matched by good killers.
Tangentially important or maybe offtopic, but It's kinda sad to see this community being able to differentiate between the performance of "swf" (used for good players) and "solo" (used for bad players) on the same character but are regularily willingly ignoring the existence of bad players on the killer side. Theres no bad Nurses in any of these discussions like this.
As for my mockup version of your picture: It's about the reality about how our community talks about balancing the game. "Solo needs to be buffed to SWF level and Strong killers need to be gutted". Incase it's not obvious, this line of thinking is severely wrong.
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I did and do. They were p100, and they downed everyone else almost instantly. Not new. They were really solid. Why did you quote the word kiting? That's what I did.
You weren't there and don't know lol. I'm not saying I'm anything special but if you play nurse I find it's not that difficult to counter. Just play the killer, know them inside and out and you can counter them.
Despite me vomiting when playing killer, I did play her a lot and know how to dodge her. I've another friend who can do the same, he's great. It's not impossible.
I still feel nurse should be changed, but for now that's the best way to counter her imo. Play it, know it, dodge. Break LoS. Juke, be unpredictable.
Edit: Someone said balance around 1%? I would not suggest that as a business owner. Balance around your largest player base as they are the one's who spend the most money combined.
You wanna balance around 1%? Then make content just for them. It's done in FFXIV, I do it and it's called Ultimates. It's extremely hard and made for hardcore 1% people who have the patience for that. If FFXIV was balanced around us, everyone else would quit.
The rest of the game is made for casuals and makes tons of money. You don't want to isolate and get the majority of your player base ticked off, burnt out and frustrated.
If 1% of them are, meh. Like I said, give them their own mode to play.
My BF and I have a big chocolate business. I'm not about to make a chocolate flavor that 1% of people will buy. I'm making what sells out in seconds and keeps us making a lot of money.
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SWF are the same thing a great team will always be OP and never balanced vs solo teams and the best teams just like the best Nurses can more or less win every game they play. So it is what it is for both sides in high MMR if you get that kind of Nurse or SWF well just play your best and after losing on to the next game.
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The issue as I see it, is killers have been made easier to play with several changes over the years. So in the early days Nurse was a very strong killer but she was hard to play, hard to get real good at. But the trade-off was that mastering her was pretty much a guaranteed 4k. The biggest change to disturb that dynamic was giving killers the ability to turn within a dash-type action. You used to have to commit to a direction until the action was complete. This allowed survivors to dodge a blink. Currently as many have pointed out there is almost no way to avoid a hit.
I do not know if a nurse nerf is in order, but a rollback on some of the physic-defying turn abilities would be helpful.
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One instance of kiting one Nurse is not doing it consistently. I have never seen anyone run a good Nurse consistently after nearly 4k hours and watching far better players than me play. You must truly be a god at the game, good for you.
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