Why most anti-tunnelling measures won't work.
I think most people agree something needs to be done about tunnelling. However, the only suggestions I hear include buffing survivors after hook or debuffing the killer for chasing the same survivor.
I think these suggestions would be awful for the game though and would always end in the survivors using these measures aggressively instead of as a defensive tool. Which we have seen multiple times throughout the game's lifecycle such as old decisive strike, off the record, etc. I even see alot of people force a hit with basekit BT and wonder why they're being tunnelled
IMO the good only way to lessen tunnelling is to give the killer an incentive to hook individually because right now tunnelling somebody out immediately is almost always better than hooking individually. One of my ideas for a potential solution would act as a basekit version of old BBQ where it would give 25% extra bloodpoints for hooking a survivor for the first time. This worked very well when old BBQ was a thing and encouraged killers to split up their hooks. I'm not sure how this would work with incentive though. Another idea which could work is an altered basekit version of grim embrace. But I fear this would encourage one survivor to ultra stealth which is never fun and I'm not sure how balanced it would be.
I want to emphasize that I don't think tunnelling should be gone completely. There are times when tunnelling is needed. I am only talking about situations where the killer loads into a match set on tunnelling out one guy and making it a 3v1. I understand my suggestions would never completely solve this issue but I don't think anything could without becoming extremely problematic for the game. I would also like to note I play 90% killer so this is not survivor bias.
Would love to hear other opinions on it though.
Have a good day :)
Comments
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At the end of the day if people are playing to win you just need to be able to get a survivor out of the game when you need to. Thats why no real systems were implemented and very few changes have been made to tunneling. Sure tunneling "before" you need to leads to what feel like unfair matches but its a way to secure wins as much as any other strategy. At the end of the day if you want a balanced game without tunneling you would need massive killer buffs and changes to compensate because of the immense pressure a killer loses from not being able to tunnel.
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Essentially as it stands both killers and survivors have incentive to play in a way that get survivors tunneled. Killers need an incentive to injure and down the other survivors. I don't like the BP idea because some people dont care about it and also it would still be in effect after tunneling someone. One thing you could do is as long as all 4 survivors are alive when you hook someone for the first time you get a mini pop goes the weasel, like +5% on your next gen kick. No time limit but will go away if you kill someone. Small but not insignificant. Or make every gen start regressing that isnt being worked on but no initial damage. Survivors incidentally you need to do something similar. Where you incentivize the survivor to take the chase. Survivors should be protecting each other and do in SWF but not so much in solo queue This mitigates tunneling A LOT. I would say if the survivor who was last hooked is in chase with the killer, slow gens by 5% unless another survivor is also in chase with the killer. This would allow for the survivors to be incentivized to help but also have no incentive to be "tunneled". Both sides need a little push.
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I don't think that they are suggesting removing the possibility but make it the correct choice in 90% of the games. which I think means giving the killer a reason not to tunnel and giving survivors also as reason to protect someone if they are getting tunnelled because that doesnt seem apparrent.
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Incentives do not work.
Make the unhooked Survivor intangible until another Survivor is downed or until they perform a conspicuous action.
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I mean thats just a massive buff to the survivor gameplay loop since they never have to protect unhooked survivors, what would you do to balance that out
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Nothing immediately. Obviously that would also be disabled after the gens are done as well.
Ideally, we'd adjust Killers on an individual basis. Killers like Nurse or Blight don't need anything to compensate for that loss, honestly nobody Huntress-level or above does.
I'm actually not sure how much it would affect things on a Kill Rate basis. You can still force hook trades, which nullifies it and regression is still extremely strong.
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The only thing you could really do to actually fix tunneling is to make it inconsequential by having a form of shared respawn ticket pool for survivors, similar to the asym game 'Depth.' Nobody is eliminated until the respawn ticket pool is depleted, effectively turning "tunneling" into a nonfactor.
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Hard pass then
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Why?
Are you just against fixing tunneling? Or that change, for some reason?
You don't need broad Killer buffs. It's been a while, but the last stats we have say that Killers are doing absolutely fine, even at high MMR. This change is certainly a nerf, but not something that requires every Killer be, "massively buffed" across the board.
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Well the inability to take a survivor out of the game is a massive change for someone just to hand wave it makes me think they don't have it well thought out so ill pass
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Because none of them will ever be as effective as Decisive Strike was.
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It sounds like you want me to simply say what I FEEL needs to happen.
No, I am not going to make a massive change and then GUESS what Killers should be buffed. I'm going to base it off of hard evidence, which currently says that Killers are fine. Will they be fine after? I don't know and neither do you.
I didn't "hand wave" anything, you just didn't like that answer. If you found my answer unsatisfactory or had other questions, you should've spoken.
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It wasn't DS.
I think this is a case of "if we remove overheat from billy, he'll be good again." He won't.
Even if DS went back to 5 seconds with no timer, it wouldn't be a deterrent. Maps aren't the same, items aren't the same, movement is different, perks are different, players skill is higher, the game more competitive etc etc
It wouldn't hurt, but DS isn't why there was less tunneling. It is merely a small piece of a larger system.
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I agree completely.
But it is better with DS than without. And we gotta start somewhere.
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It's weird how Behavior hasn't considered how many people are driven away from this game due to hard tunneling. I personally know two casual players who completely dropped the game because of it. They'd try to come back and would get hard tunneled out of almost every match. I'm pretty sure they aren't the only ones either. I've played countless matches where my random teammate is just ruthlessly deleted from the match. I can't imagine it makes them want to continue playing when this probably happens to them on a regular basis. Tunneling doesn't personally effect me a lot but I am much more experienced than an average player. I think at the very least something needs to be done about deleting people at 3-5 gens remaining. This is especially problematic since there are often massive skill gaps in an average solo queue lobby. Scenarios like a killer with 2500 hours hard tunneling a 500 hour survivor. There should be some sort of downside to hooking the same person three times in a row extremely early in the match.
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We have no choice but to sweat our bums off as a tunneled survivor. I've done it for several matches in a row the entire game (where me and me alone is focused on) and if the killer doesn't rage quit or give up and drop chase, I can only play for a little bit before I have to turn it off. It's too exhausting, as well as boring.
Plus you get no BP despite doing all the work kiting the killer all game.
Fun.
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AS for Tunneling it's more effective to take out one Survivor as soon as possible... making it a 3V1
As for Anti-Tunneling we need to realize that 30-90 seconds is all of the time needed to get 1-3 Gens done
And if the Killer spends 20-30 seconds to find and even start a chase (even with Lethal Pursuer)
It's more of getting the Gens right... maybe going back to 80 charges per Gen and adjusting the efficiency that Survivors have
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Thread #638 with the suggestion of 'just colossally buff killers and they'll totally stop tunnelling'.
Tunnelling is OP. Any alternative you want to create that competes with it would have to be -more- OP.
Tunnelling needs nerfs.
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I never said colossally buff killers, I only offered my ideas on what could possibly work. This would obviously need to be balanced and worked on more than I have. Nothing will ever stop tunnelling and i think tunnelling is fine in certain situations. This is only trying to give an incentive to go for others at the beginning of a match as right now there is none.
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I know that's not what you think you said, but it is what you said for the reason I have described. Any 'incentive' would need to be more powerful than tunnelling, making it even more OP than tunnelling.
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People tunnel because it's incredibly easy to do and usually gets them an easy win. That's what most tunnelers are after and as long as that doesn't change, no amount of incentives will work unless they are somehow even easier to achieve and just as or more effective (which would be ridiculous)
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They dont work cause theyre just half baked work arounds. The cause of tunneling is that it circumvents core gameplay in an super easy way that basically guarantees 4ks. Unless devs accept that the only fix is to completely render tunneling useless nothing will change. But being realistic devs have long ago given up on fixing their core game.
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This is the only way. Make the kill not count until another person is hooked. My last match last night lasted 3 minutes and I lost progress. That isn't fair. No wonder people don't want to play. Tunneling has been shown all over YouTube and Twitch as an easy strategy to get a 4K. Not only that they all run aura perks with NOED so they are crummy games. Most games you'll spend screaming your head off.
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Exactly this. Maybe the devs will test a new mode that removes tunneling and if successful, replace the main game mode. Otherwise it would be a wait until a sequel .
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I'm all for incentivizing not tunneling instead of punishing it.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen a single solution in all these years that would work out as intended. By the nature of the asymmetric gameplay, getting the first survivor out is just such a fundamentally strong tactic that unless it is punished severely, it's just way too strong to ignore.
I'm at the point where I think we just need a casual and a ranked game mode. Even with all the down sides that would cause it would still be a net positive change.
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There are solutions because they can just get rid of the anti camp bar and replace it with a gen speed up. Killers have now exploited it so now no one rescues you especially with Friends till the end. This way this encourages the killer to patrol more and gens to go off. Also no progress will be lost if your out on first hook, that whole point system needs to be redone.
There is also a suggestion where if a survivor is chased and hooked within 45-60 seconds after being hooked then the hook doesn't count.
Slugging also needs to be addressed either there needs to be basekit unbreakable or say for a trail period they give the community that leave option if they are being slugged. Then the player gets logged after so many survivors leave for being slugged the killer must play games against bots.
I do realize that survivors are toxic too and that does need to be addressed as well. But most games killers don't even try an figure out who they are up against and just go around and tunnel and slug.
No one wants to lose but the more unbearable the killers keep making it the more survivors will start to leave more and more.
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Get unhooked-> use the intangible status to disarm the entire killers setup as it is not a conspicuous action-> watch them be able to do nothing-> profit.
That change will literally kill hag, skullmerchant, sadako, demogorgon (not that much, shred is the real power), singularity, trapper, freddy to an extend( altho he is already dead), and xeno also to an extend.
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So add interacting with Killer Items as a Conspicuous Action.
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Yes, tunneling is the strongest basekit tool killers have. Success getting 1 out before the 3rd Gen done is guarantee win. Want another tool basekit that stronger than tunneling so they dont tunnel is wrong.
It works exactly like this on survivor part: Open the Gates for me, then I will do totem and chest.
In other word: give me free win so I will play nice.
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