Nerfs to PTB Sadako are unnecessary
I had a thorough post detailing all the differences between the original, live, and PTB versions of Sadako, which has been deleted for some reason. I think it was informative and I would have simply linked in here if I could. But basically every comment I heard about Sadako's 2nd rework was how BHVR nailed it, bringing back skill expression and fun while avoiding an unhealthy playstyle some used revolving around slugging. So why nerf those changes?
Limiting stacks of Condemn that can be locked in when hooked does nothing to dissuade tunneling. If anything, a Killer might be more inclined to tunnel because they don't want the survivor to cleanse their additional stacks. Locking in permanent stacks puts more pressure on the survivor later in the match, as their margins for error are much thinner. They will have to manage any additional stacks proactively in order to avoid a mori. This is a very valuable reward for Sadako winning chases, and it was intended to encourage her to hook instead of slug. I believe Tapes are still destroyed when the survivor is hooked, but my post with that information is lost. So at least the survivor will have to make a full tape run.
2 stacks locked in per hook for a maximum of 4 almost reduces her Condemn mori to that of Pyramid Head's execution - you probably had to down them 3 times, so they would have been dead on hook anyway. However, reducing the amount a survivor can cleanse - making the possibility of killing them before 3 downs greater - is still much better than nothing. Sadako could try slugging again, saving walking time to hooks and avoiding hook related survivor perks, but it's much harder to do without old Iri Tape and Ring Drawing. If you made unlimited Condemn lock in a new add on (or just replace PTB Iri Tape, which many consider barely better than a meme) I'd be fine with the limitation. But the reasoning given - that too much locked in Condemn incentivizes immediate tunneling - is poor.
I have a much bigger problem with the 10 second power meter. I'm glad it's not a straight CD on Sadako's ability to teleport, like it is on live servers, but this response to limit smart Sadako plays is frustrating.
"We had hoped that limiting the range of Condemned to powered TVs would address this and allow us to remove the projection cooldown. However, some crafty Onryō players discovered that they could intentionally teleport to the wrong TVs first in order to spread more than one stack of Condemned to Survivors near/heading towards a powered one."
Sadako's Condemn is only spread in 1 of 2 ways: A survivor turns off a TV; A survivor is within 16m of a powered TV when Sadako projects to any TV. Survivors could now see powered TV auras within 16m, so if Sadako is teleporting multiple times the simple counterplay is to turn off that TV.
Taking a Tape does multiple things:
- Prevents Sadako from projecting to that TV.
- Gives the survivor a target TV where they can cleanse 3 stacks of Condemn with a 1 second animation.
- Prevents any survivors in that area from gaining stacks of condemn, because the TV will no longer be powered.
- The only true cost of these beneficial things is 1 stack of Condemn. Eventually the survivor will have to travel to the target TV, but there's a chance that the TV is near a generator they would like to work on anyway.
Interacting with TVs is more straightforward, with the least risk, than ever. No passive condemn, you can't lose the Tape on hit. With a 1 second animation Sadako can't even interrupt you cleansing mid-chase. Especially with nearby powered TVs auras, survivors have no excuse to be sitting near a powered TV and hit by multiple stacks of Condemn from Sadako's projections. If survivors can learn the counterplay to any other Killer, they can learn to interact with TVs more. Personally, I think TV auras should be hidden except for your target TV.
But what disappoints me is how they reacted to Sadako mains using their kit efficiently, in a careful analysis of risk reward. Because assuming the Killer knows which TV a survivor is near, they have basically 2 choices:
- Teleport straight there, interrupting them and starting a chase. This only gives 1 stack of Condemn.
- Teleport ELSEWHERE in order to give them (potentially) multiple stacks of Condemn. However, teleporting somewhere else does not interrupt their generator progress or healing, and the greed for multiple stacks is easily punished by turning off the TV - which they can see - before Sadako continues to spam teleport.
That's interesting gameplay that involves strategy. Why punish that when the counterplay is so accessible? There are very limited situations where turning off a TV is a bad choice. Sadako - like any other Killer - should have the ability to punish poor decision making from the survivors. Throttling the rate Sadako can intentionally spread Condemn by making calculated decisions hurts her to protect survivors that haven't figured out her easy counterplay.
Again, BHVR could AT LEAST make it a new add-on. I'd prefer if it also blocked TV auras.
Compared with the original version of Sadako (I wish I could link my previous post) she is better, but only marginally. 45 second TV CDs is amazing compared to 100 seconds, but old Iri Tape is gone. Condemn based around all powered TVs instead of only the TV Sadako teleports to is great. But only locking in 2 stacks of Condemn each hook is more of a parallel change from passive Condemn. With skill you can save time in chase by baiting pallets that don't stun you while Demanifested. I believe Reiko's Watch is now basekit for more mindgame potential, and it's good that Sadako can stay in chase while Demanifested.
I was really excited for the PTB changes, now I'm not so sure. I dislike the PTB Iri Tape and PTB Ring Drawing is nice but less reliable than Live Ring Drawing. Iri Remote Control is her best add on by far, and the only thing I was a little disappointed by in the PTB was how the majority of her very underpowered add-ons weren't buffed or reworked. The people I talked to on the PTB were happy with her changes and I strongly believe that they should go live without these nerfs.
Comments
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Very well said.
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If devs were worried about “smart plays”, they could reduce the amount of stack each teleport would give to 0.75 instead of coming up with this convulted method of restricting her Condemned pressure.
For the Condemned stack locking, the only rationale I can see for this is to address Survivors getting hooked at 4 stacks with Yoichi’s addon giving them permanent blindness for the entire game. Reducing the maximum locked in stacks to 2 per hook just makes it not worth to hook Survivors. If they were trying to have Sadako only use her Condemn Mori after a Survivor is on death hook similar to Pyramid Head’s Torment mechanic, they forgot that Sadako does not have a chase power and cannot instant hook Survivors like Pyramid Head.
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I keep thinking it's not that bad. But then I see others give reasons why she might be as bad or worse than Sadako on release.
The Devs are TERRIFIED that Sadako could possibly get Condemn kills without effectively throwing the game to do so. I understand why some want to effectively make it like a Pyramid Head mori and buff her in other ways. But I was always drawn to her unique alternate win condition.
Making her Condemn playstyle weaker really makes her just a M1 Killer with great mobility and some limited stealth, with a slow down mechanic that's much easier to deal with than Pig or Cenobite.
[I thought locking in permanent Yoichi's Fishing Net blindness was really cool. I don't typically run builds that benefit from blindness, but it was a legit option. Definitely not strong enough to warrant any balance attention, and I doubt it was on their radar. And it's an add on that could be strong, but also could be useless, depending on how Sadako plays.]
But stick with the full stacks, please. The fractions were annoying, at least to me.
Post edited by lachenstars on1 -
I don't see the point at all of locking in 2 stacks of condemned at a time. So best case you still need to dump 5 TVs into someone consecutively to bypass a hook stage which is probably a game-throwing amount of time depending on the map
And if you lock in 4 that means they are dead on hook and condemned didn't matter pretty much at all even if you get the last 3
An M1 killer with good mobility and (bad) stealth is still just an M1 killer. Might as well just play wraith after these changes, which sucks because Sadako is such an icon and now Dredge once again returns as the go-to option for "omnipresent map control killer"
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Locking in Condemn stacks by hooking was never something I considered, and I came up with some pretty inventive add on suggestions. It's a very clever solution that helps justify taking the time to hook someone, but 2 is just too low of a number. I'll still take it, but 3 stacks would in no way be too strong, IMO. Sadako still has to win 2 chases for each hook. The whole point of Condemnation is that if you are skillful enough you can fulfill an alternate win condition that reduces the number of chases you have to win. The trade off is that she is abysmal in chase, plus survivors can easily cleanse. Ideally the Killer power interaction should be high, limiting Sadako's projection possibilities and protecting from spam teleports but requiring a Tape run several times per match. Good Sadako players should naturally spread Condemn on several survivors while defending gens and winning some chases. The balance felt great on the PTB. These nerfs shift it so Sadako has to work harder / it takes longer for her to build Condemn while cleansing remains very straightforward.
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It's crazy to me that the devs think Sadako teleporting strategically is problematic, and yet Skull Merchant stacking infinite haste and hindered is fine by them.
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Come on guys you knew it was disguised as a straight up nerf. I'm scared for Billy! I really want him to be good again!
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The biggest issue I see with PTB Sadako is the stack-lock cap. I'm fine with a cool down on teleports, but the fact that you could LOSE stacks for hooking a Survivor is absurd (especially since no previous version has had Survivors lose stacks while on hook). It could also mess with the math involved with counting Condemned, as you might not be certain whether or not the hooked Survivor has 1 or 2 stacks (and with the 10 sec cooldown on teleports), could actually LOSE YOU THE GAME for nothing in return. I think Sadako's Mori should be used as a tide-turning move, something you do that turns the trial in your favor even for a moment. But the stack-lock cap and 10 sec cooldown along with the 16m Condemn radius make her glacially slow at (arguably) the best part about her.
Edit: Wow, I'm dumb and didn't read the patch notes. Forgive me.
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