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Survivors have so much Power in Public Games...
I'm so tired of broken perks, items & offerings from Survivor side...
First match today and what?
Eyrie Of Crows Offering, Buckle Up & For The People, 4 Adrenalines, Toolboxes not even BNP & more...
Surprisingly it happens many times. Eyrie Of Crows is hugely unbalanced. These Survivors I versed weren't even decent at the game. They just knew how to abuse these things.
I did a little Test. I brought my friends and we played with map offerings, strong items and Buckle Up / FTP combo. We did play 10 games. All games we won without any problems. We are not even very good at the game. Killers couldn't reach 4/5 Hooks Stages. I really don't get it. I usually don't make posts like this, but it started to be very annoying... I just needed to write this in here... What are you thoughts?
Comments
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The game heavily favors those who bring in the stronger loadout. If you went against a Alch Ring/Crow Blight for example the game would of probably been pretty equal, if not slightly lean towards his favor because of how damn strong Blight is.
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Yes, this is how I look at it too.
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Map offerings are the only thing i have an issue with. Bring all the insta heals and styptics you want. Now when you do that AND bring yourself to a map on top i'm just leaving on the loading screen. At that point just go play a PVE game on easy mode . Point is map offerings need a rework and don't belong in the game in their current form.
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Yes, map offerings should be removed. Only make the game select an indoor map when playing as Scratched Mirror Myers because I want to make people pee a little. It’s so hard to do it when we’re sent outdoors.
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Killrates are telling different story than yours. Game looks like pretty much killer-favored.
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Are we really using the killrate argument again? If we want to look at how balanced the game actually is I’d say we should look at the top level of play no? You know where both sides actually know how to play? Well it doesn’t get much higher than comp dbd. In comp the survivors are heavily restricted, and they also usually play on maps which are more balanced.
Even with these heavy restrictions they literally base the scoring based off hook states instead of kills lmao. The killer almost always attempts to tunnel one out asap and even then usually end up with a handful of hook states and with one or maybe two kills by the end of the game. That’s WITH heavy perk restrictions on the survivors.
At this point saying, “oh but the killrate though” is just disingenuous.
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Kill Rate doesn't say anything. Basically if Killer lose his game very hard - Survivors throw and give him 1 or 2 Kills usually. Not always, but yeah... It happens very often in my opinion. Also Kill Rate at low MMR is probably very high, because nobody knows how to play and try to hide.
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Also guys I am little bit surprised you didn't say anything about FTP Buckle Up comibnation, because it's literally no counterplay for that.
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So instead of kill-rates , i will take your words?
No offense but nah. On all MMR levels, kill rates are higher than escape rates. High level included. If you have proofs about this game favors survivors, i am ready to listen.
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The devs very specifically have stated that kill rates directly influence their balance decisions. So yeah, in any balance discussion that's going to play a role, and likely a pretty big one.
Given that it's nearly the only metric we have from the devs directly, it's anything but disingenuous. What's disingenuous is trying to throw out or discount the actual data because 'it should be balanced around how it feels' despite what the data data to the contrary.
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Yes exactly. On ALL levels of play. That means low levels as well where the survivors are still running around afraid of the killer afraid to do gens lol. High level is included but it’s not specifically high levels, meaning the killrate is inflated by players who play at a casual level. I just gave you proof by giving an example of what the game looks like at top level, you know where both sides actually know how to play? You’ve just chosen to completely ignore my argument and then say that you’re willing to listen, when you literally did the complete opposite of that.
The honest truth is that it doesn’t really seem like you are willing to listen. You’ve literally just done the opposite of what you said you were willing to do. I can see I’m clearly not going to get anywhere with this conversation so we can just agree to disagree.
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I’ve literally just tried to explain why kill rates are not a valid indicator of game balance, guess you’ve chosen to ignore my argument on that as well? I’m not going to sit and repeat myself all day and it’s really not at all a difficult concept to grasp as to why killrate does not equate to game balance.
It doesn’t matter if it’s the only metric given by the devs. I’ve already explained why that logic doesn’t work. My argument was never that it should be balanced around how it feels, if anything I’m saying the game should be balanced around good players meaning the high levels of play. Literally look at the comp scene. That’s what the game looks like at top level. Killers literally struggle to secure kills to the point that they literally score it based off of HOOK STATES instead of KILLS lmao.
You: But the killrate tho
Me: Explains why the killrate is not an accurate portrayal of game balance and giving an example of what the game consistently looks like at high level where both sides are playing as good as they can be
You: But the killrate tho
My god it’s like talking to a brick wall. You know what? Believe what you want. You guys will literally do anything and use any logic you can in order to not have to accept the fact that survivor isn’t exactly this massive display of skill that some want it so desperately to be.
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Devs will release new kill rates soon, so you will see it's not different on high levels as well. Because it was not so different the last time they shared. And survivor meta was stronger than current meta.
Killer is dominate role atm, i don't know what you guys need. 80 - 90% win-rate? That's not gonna happen btw because nobody would play survivor.
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Dont worry, people will find other reasons why the stats the Devs will provide will not be valid. This has been the case all the time.
Because for some Killer Mains it is hard to believe that Killer overall is not in such a bad spot as they think.
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No, you don't look at the .0001% when discussing overall balance.
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what are the kill rates? i remember they posted something like a year or so ago
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How do you explain all of those high MMR streamers who consistently win 9/10 games as killer? Do they have a secret queue which makes the game easier for them? Or maybe they're just better than the average forum killer?
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Either there is no such thing as high MMR or they tank their MMR off stream. I've been lobbied with streamers who call themself high MMR and there is no way I would consider myself high MMR.
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Yes exactly. On ALL levels of play. That means low levels as well where the survivors are still running around afraid of the killer afraid to do gens lol. High level is included but it’s not specifically high levels, meaning the killrate is inflated by players who play at a casual level.
Last two times BHVR released stats, the killrates were higher if they were filtered only to higher brackets.
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This.
The problem with the whole "balance around high MMR" is that most people aren't there. Changing things solely based on situations experienced only by a small minority would hurt the overall majority of players around.
DBD is not a competitive game, it never was and it never will be. That is why tournaments are external. There is a different priority here.
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After my experience with soloQ for the last week or so… absolutely not. It’s in a terrible state rn
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Killrate is kinda hiding the fact that most games are uncoordinated SoloQ and some SWF that don't do callouts. Broken things on either side can't be excused by killrate/escape rate if the numbers are skewed because of it. Heck, Sadako is getting nerfed from her PTB because of uncoordinated players not touching tapes. How is that logical when she has an easy and non-punishing counterplay in the PTB, but broken combinations of items and perks is A-OK because killrates?
SoloQ needs QoL absolutely, no doubt, but we can't have double standards on broken combinations.
Besides, do we really want to rely on one or two broken combinations, or do we want more balanced things across the board on both sides?
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I mean what is broken on survivor side atm?
Medkits are nerfed, now they are ok with even irri addons.
I'd rework toolboxes but i don't think they are that much problem.
Flashlights are very easily countered.
Maps and keys are just exist i guess.
There is only few maps left which favors survivors hardly but most of maps are feels balanced.
FtP + BU combo is annoying but it confirmed to be changed.
SWF teams are just excuse for loses because most of times i am not seeing that good teams, even after so much wins. Team Eternal level SWFs are rare. So SupaAlf level Nurses too. We should balance game around this level players? Which probably 5% of playerbase for best. Do you know how this will be bad for rest of players?
So i am curious what makes game unbalanced for killers.
I am really questioning myself sometimes if we are still playing 2020 DbD. Survivors were op but not anymore. Game is pretty much chill and easy for killers most times. You will get some challanger teams time to time for sure but even on those matches you can win if you play right.
I am really thinking people just can't take one L after countless wins. It's understandable, it's human thing. Nobody loves to lose even after so many wins. But let's be fair. It's fine to lose some matches if your winrate is 60+% and above.
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Mainly map sizes, jank tile layouts, and the reliance on slowdown. You could also make an argument for gen speeds and toolbox power, but even I see that as a coordinated SWF issue for the most part. If you decide to run a build with no slowdown, which most newer killers will be facing now that Surge is back on Demogorgon, unless they also run killers with decent movement gens will fly pretty quickly. And unfortunately, most slowdown is locked behind licenses or the very slow shrine. Meanwhile lots of good survivor perks are avaliable almost immediately with Dwight, Meg and Claudette. Less so Dwight these days, admittedly.
Maps like Eerie of Crows and Garden of Joy are both good examples of really bad maps that suffer from these problems of map size and tiles, with Eerie of crows having the addition of really terrible lighting.
And on that note, if you think about it the most annoying builds on killer for survivor I've seen involve a lot of slowdown. It's strange that something that is almost required for most killers is extremely oppressive on survivors. Even the upcoming DMS+GE is thought to be oppressive. It really feels like there's no decent in-between because most slowdown by itself is sometimes not enough. It's also why Nurse and Blight are so good, lots of fast map movement and, in Nurse's case, ignoring tiles.
I'm not going to say I know the perfect balancing ideas, but I'd hope most of us can see the issue that games can either mostly end in 4ks with strong slowdown and mostly 0-1ks with no slowdown. Thankfully, the changes to gens and having no gen taps/requires survivors to commit to fix a regressing gen may help, but it will require killer to be more active on the regressing gen in question.
Edit: Also I'd like to mention I want more interesting stuff for maps and keys too. Anything to help mitigate gen speeds and promote variety of gameplay so we can justify nerfing slowdown. I guess my answer to your question is, what is broken on killer that isn't slowdown or Nurse?
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You can't say any side is favored in this game. There's far too many different factors, which all change match to match.
You can get a blight with full meta running against solo queue survivors without items running off-meta, and then in that case it's killer sided.
But then you can have a match against a Trapper with 1 slowdown, but against a 4 man swf with 4 bnps with adren, dh/sprint burst, bond and windows, and then it's survivor sided.
It all depends on who decides to play more sweaty, which is impossible to tell before the match has started, except for the rare occasion where the killer sees 4 p100s with 4 toolboxes/medkits.
And even if you pair a 10000 hour nurse main against 4 survivors with 4 bnps, the best perks possible, then there's rng that comes into play. Which map did you get? Where did gens spawn? Is there a 3 gen? Where did the survivors spawn?
Arguing over which side this game favors is such a ridiculous argument, and it's entirely pointless.
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That's how balance works.
They can't make gens slower anymore with the current slowdown perks we have. I know you will say then nerf those perks and make gens slower but then killer will have free perk slots which will be used chase perks or information perks or perks like Plaything.
So you need to be careful with slowdown , you simply can break the game. And i don't even need to mention high tier killers. If you balance game around weak killers, high level killers will be just broken.
Eyrie is not bad map for killers with good chase power. But you simply can't nerf this map anymore. Just look Borgo and how terrible it is right now for survivors. Removing loops is good for weak killers but weak killers are on the rare side. So that's means you will go to against Blight, Wesker, Nurse, Spirit, Chucky, Xeno etc most of the time. And those killers are already so strong with good powers. Nerfing maps is simply means breaking them.
So except few maps, i don't think maps needs so much changes. Size is also another issue. If you make them so small, Saloon for an example, it will make game unbalanced for other side. Saloon and Midwich have high kill rates for a reason. We can't make maps like those two.
GoJ needs another nerf, maybe Eyrie should be smaller but non of loops should be removed. Haddonfield should get full loop rework, nerf houses and buff street. But nerfing maps to Borgo level will just break the game. And they should never balance maps around m1 killers because they are not so popular and most of killers have powers. Instead of nerfing maps, they need to buff weak killers. So they can play around strong loops.
Balance is not easy but i just disagree with DbD is favoring survivors more. Because my exp is just opposite. Playing survivor is feeling like hell and when i play killer, i am always finding fun and chill matches.
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My main gripes with Eerye of Crows is the lighting, alongside main building having the perfect bully SWF setup still. In first person, all that bright light on the walls and floor makes scratch marks even more hidden and really becomes blinding in some cases. And what I mean by jank tiles is something I'm sure survivors also see: Generation problems. This has been seen with weird 3 gens, tiles with no pallets and whatnot. More times than none on killer for me, I've seen multiple jungle gyms with windows facing each other so there's no real chasing them without bamboozle to cut one of them off.
In terms of intentional game design, there's a good handful of maps that have easy to do mid gens that result in a wide gap to patrol quickly with no real way to approach without the survivors getting to safe loops immediately. I actually think that's one thing Crows does right, with the mid gens having more high walls to consider before moving while other maps almost have no high walls for some of their mid gens.
We also have to consider how extremely good loops can nearly guarantee 2 gens pop quickly alongside kitted out toolboxes/perks against most of the killer roster. I have saved many soloQ games on survivor running commodius with two charge addons, stake out, hyperfocus, fogwise and built to last to do critical mid gens in the killers TR when there's a decent looper, or at least most of the gen if they decide to switch to me. Then all it takes is map knowledge of the best loops and how to counter the killer in question and if they're easy to counter. It got so monotonous for me that I now try harder builds and suffer more in SoloQ for it because of how fast I could do gens by myself compared to my teammates. It's only when I run into extreme slowdown that the gen build starts to suffer more.
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This right here is exactly the point I'm trying to make.
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Comp DBD is a joke and nothing that happens in comp is relevant to game balance.
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There's a few factors to consider here:
- Why was nobody else doing gens? Not one other survivor?
- If they are proxy camping, it should give enough time to slip in and get the save, if not trade hooks if the killer is patrolling outside the facecamp circle
- Survivors can see what other survivors are doing and if they're in chase. More survivors need to be aware of this.
- Tunneling is a problem depending on the killer. The only things you can do is take hits for them, do the gens and hope the tunneled player can loop well and has access to loops.
- If they are camping too close, don't crowd the hook and allow the survivor to pull themself off the hook, then take hits for them to make sure they stay alive.
The answer isn't to do broad nerfs to killers, most already feel like tunneling is needed because of gen speeds which is another topic, but survivors need more information at their disposal. Maybe a visual indicator for the facecamp ranges, or better manuals in game for killers, powers, items, addons, etc etc. Also, some anti-tunnel changes to killers that bypass it.
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I never feel powerful in any match. Where can I find this power you speak of?
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I wouldn't go that far.
It's pretty entertaining and it's always cool to see true masters of any craft, but no, I don't think it should have much, if any, influence on balance
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I can't remember the last time I've ever seen a survivor die to tunneling and no gens get done while survivors are doing gens and taking hits. Most of the time I get 4k's at 5 gens, it's because I end chases quickly and apply DMS with Sadako's mindgame teleport using VCR and they never get around to fixing them again.
Were all the killers running some kind of gen block/regression combination? Even Pain Res alone doesn't stop at least 1 gen from getting finished by first or second hook.
Post edited by ChaosWam on1 -
Out of my 10 games last night as survivor on NA I had about 4 hard tunnelers, 3 running pain resonance and one running Surge/Deadlock and we managed to get at least 1 gen done, max gens done was 3 before someone died and one of those 4 was an escape because the tunneled player ran OTR and DS.
This is why I talk about the disparity of no gen stall/regression and more gen stall/regression builds. Because the other 6 games were 0k-2ks running minimal regression like just Surge or none at all to devote to chase/stealth and it failing.
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This is true
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To add to this most top tier are well oiled coordinate 4 person swf, which is NOT the majority of players. You can't balance around the elite. Maybe the original person who stated this should read Animal Farm
So kill rates are sqewed because people intentionally throw games.
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killer has more control over round pacing/ how easy it is or how boring it is, and they normally make it as boring and painful for solo q survs as possible
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They are removing all kinds of skill. Latest is 3 gens, which are usually created by survivors just slamming the gens out with no mind paid to anything. Soon the survivors wont have to think about it and can just focus on genrushing.
I dont know the stats or if you can even prove it, but id say survivors 3genning themselves is much more common than a killer doing it from the start.
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I’d like to also mention another factor which leads to an inflated killrate that I haven’t mentioned, and that’s the whole issue of tunneling. Survivors obviously hate being tunneled out, and I’ll admit it isn’t fun at all to be tunneled out. Yet time and time again you look at popular steamers that have thousands of hours on the game and even they tunnel for a win. Take Otz for example, when he’s going for winstreaks or just needs the win he tunnels one person out.
So why would these players who clearly know what they’re doing feel the need to tunnel even when it’s hated by their own community? It’s really simple. Survivor objective speed>>>>Killer objective speed. There is simply not enough time for a twelve hook game against a good team. That’s another reason why looking at purely the killrate is just not valid. It doesn’t really tell you the full story of the match.
If we completely remove the option of tunneling from the killer I would honestly guarantee that this “killrate” would plummet drastically.
There have been many valid points on this thread as to why the killrate is not a valid way to dictate the game’s overall balance including lower levels of play, tunneling and camping in order to even achieve the kills, survivors constantly offing themselves on hook, et cetera.
And I don’t really understand the idea that we shouldn’t balance around the higher levels of play. If we balance around the casual audience the game is more imbalanced when we reach the part of the game where both sides actually know how to play. If we balance around high level then the lower level will simply learn how to play the game as they get better. Most games literally balance around the better players it’s illogical to do the opposite.
Post edited by Bartolomeo87 on0 -
Just my opinion but Solo q doesn't need anymore QOL people just need to grow a brain, how hard is it to do gens when you're not getting chased or read the big blueprint on the side telling you everything you pretty much need to know? Lol Same can be said for people complaining about killer not everyone is the best killer in the world you can't expect every game to be a comfortable experience, I win probably around 70-75% percent of my killer matches just messing around with different killers but sometimes I pick a killer I'm not so great with and get roll stomped by seal team 6
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This is not a survivor exclusive issue. Whoever brings the broken BS items/add-ons/offerings/perks will have a lot of power in public games, does not matter what role they are playing.
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Unfortunately the problem seems to be trending toward reworks focusing on those players due to a mass of players unable to keep up on changes, counterplay and other things like that. At the very least, some kind of in-game compendium on killers, powers, items, addons and so on would be nice and even then it's up to the players to read it.
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Reminds me of the depip squad. If at the end of the game the killer has someone on hook... they'd just leave. No hook trades, no giving any chance for a comeback. The killer gets 1 kill.
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This argument is good but at the same time to play devils advocate, even if they made every gen take five minutes killers can still tunnel for a easy win because that problem can't be fixed without changing the way the game flows. I'd honestly like to see both sides get a major buff , them bring back bigger maps, reduce gen time but add another objective required to escape they could spawn a special objective for each realm to do along with gens so it's never the same thing over and over
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- Flashlights easy to counter? Do you see me? "Background Player".
- For The People & Buckle Up wasn't in upcoming Road Map.
- I think 80% of maps are Survivor Sided. Eyrie Of Crows, Garden Of Joy, Every Badham, Red Forest & more...
- Toolboxes are too strong. Survivor who bring 4 Toolboxes and they know callouts - they are kinda impossible to beat.
- Medkits needs some changes. For sure they need to nerf Syringe & add more interesting addons.
- Perks like Adrenaline, For The People, Buckle Up, Deliverance are too strong. Killer has only 4 perks, and his 4 perks sometimes are weaker than 4 perks on Survivor Side. They have 16 perks...
If someone who doesn't play both sides shouldn't even talk in here... And it's easy to notice who play mainly Survivor...
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I actually agree with what you said here. I’d be perfectly fine if the things that are not fun as survivor such as tunneling are no longer an option as long as they make it so that those things are not at all needed. I think the secondary objective idea could be one of the good solutions to the problems.
The only issue I see with some of these solutions you presented is that as you said it would take a lot of changes to the way the game flows and it’s a big ask of the developers and I’m not sure they’re really willing to take those steps.
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So do killers literally just run 4 slowdown and good addons and play good macro and you will 9/10 times even vs survivors that bring busted stuff
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Top level be like....1000 win streak
I mean come on, you are not the top level. You're just average killer being mis-matched against better teams, just like me as average solo matched with stacked slowdown Blight.
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- I 4k'ed countless Background Player SWFs. So i don't know what's the issue here.
- It's not but they said they are looking for solution. So this combo will be fixed whenever it gets ready.
- 80% of maps are survivorside? Most of maps have high kill rates. So maps are fine, maybe it's only you. There is only few maps are bad and need rework.
- Survivors will bring 4 toolboxes, true but you will counter it with tunnelling. If other side is asking to rush objective, so you do it too.
- They don't need to nerf medkits or add-ons. I have no issue against them. Maybe it's you.
- Non of those perks are busted, they are strong but that's it. Only BU + FtP combo need to be looked and that's all.
I am playing both sides and i am good at killer. So i don't know what to say.
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I had a game I lost against a gen rush full no mither lobby with resilience and prove deja vu, and all gens were done after I got like 4 hooks, killer experience is really exhausting and gives me anxiety knowing I'm in such a limited timer and way too much pressure because of it to be fun.
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