BHVR mentioned the 3 gen solution will never impact "normal" matches....yet that's a lie
The 2 other changes that were implemented due to the 3 geb solution will frequently happen, likely in pretty much every game....the removal of gen tapping and the extra kick damage from 2.5% to 5% will be relevant.
So why does BHVR feel the need to basekit buff killers (again...) to compensate for something that should only happen in really rare occasions...
Doesn't seem fair at all that killers get a buff that will occur in literally every single match to compensate for a fix that will only occur in problably .1% of total matches..
Can BHVR explain the logic behind this? Because it makes zero sense.
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Maybe wait and actually observe it in action on a large scale?
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You dont have to observe it. The increase from 2,5% to 5% is a Buff. And not really a needed one, because they could have removed Gentapping with the old value of 2,5% as well.
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Didn’t they say they aim to not have it affect normal matches?
Gen-tapping was also being complained about forever and was really just no risk for too much reward for survivors. And having gen kicks be more effectful was also something asked for outside of 3 gens..
imo, these are good mechanics that needed to happen years ago
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OP is not talking about the 3-Gen solution itself affecting matches, but the 5% Regression for a Gen-Kick which comes with it.
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It's to make killers need to kick gens less often. While they're both technically buffs to the killer on paper, they actually counteract each other.
- Kicks are more powerful.
- Killers can't kick gens as often.
By removing gen tapping, gens are less likely to stop regressing, which means they can't be kicked. They get fewer kicks, but maintain the same level of passive gen regression.
It also removes one of the most egregious survivor 'techs' of tapping a gen in chase and undoing the killers efforts entirely.
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I'll need to play a lot of trials when the change goes live to know if it really will effect normal game play for me. I tend to get a lot of my Killer wins (as a Legion main) from exploiting a self-inflicted / RNG spawned 3 gen situation, so I'll definitely find out pretty quickly if I need to run stronger gen regression or slowdown perks to compensate for the new limits. I don't want to become a thanatophobia Legion though, so I hope it never comes to that.
One possible positive could be that Killers will feel the need to bring less regression perks, since dry kicking a gen will actually be more worthwhile doing now. So we might get a bit more perk variety overall. It will also help newer Killers that have no access to decent regression perks now that Surge/Jolt is no longer a general perk.
But I suspect that at higher MMR, pop and pain res will still be plenty enough regression to win a majority of trials for the more competitively minded Killers. So none of these changes will really make all that much difference to them. Lots of high MMR Killers don't ever kick gens unless they have pop.
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TBF, gen tapping has been brought up as an unfair mechanic time and time again. I don't know about the greater whole, but I really appreciate that survivors can't undo 1.8s of animation with 0.1s while midloop, that was always a source of grief.
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Given that there’s now a limit on how many times a gen can be kicked, making a dry kick more impactful seems perfectly reasonable to me.
All the same, we’ve seen this time and time again. The PTB playerbase is very small compared the the entire playerbase. It is, quite simply, impossible to tell how this will play out in the grand scheme of things. Before that, everything is ultimately just speculation.
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No offense but this looks like survivor mains bias that never play killer and don't care about killer experience, imagine complaining gen tapping is not a thing anymore, I had survivors that tapped a gen in the middle of the chase and I couldn't stop kicking it again else would of lost a lot of distance.
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Yeah, misleading title which I wanted to point out..
5 % regression is a buff, sure. though to be fair, I think it does need settling to see how it will actually affect matches, and the devs (iirc) never stated this won’t affect normal matches?
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Yeah, but the Devs said themselves that 8 Gen Regression-events is a high number and only really happens in 3-Gen situations. So why then buff the general regression for a Kick?
Gentapping could also have been solved by letting the survivor 2,5% of the Generator. There was no need to buff it to 5% for Kicks.
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Because knowing that gens only have 8 regression events would encourage survivors to gen tap even more than normal in order to burn through them. Currently 8 events is unusual, without this change it wouldn't be.
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You would not be able to Gen-tap if you would need to repair 2,5% to stop the regression. Yet they buffed the Kicks to 5% and the required repair to 5% as well.
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Because you're kicking gens less often. Fewer gens kicks = less regression.
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Might be me struggling with English, but are you just saying that because Killers dont need to kick Gens that often anymore because Survivors cannot gentap anymore (which is a good thing), they should get buffed Gen Kicks?
So, because Gentapping is no more (again, a good change for Killer), they should get a Buff as well?
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With arguments like this, I guarantee they're going to get themselves killed by a 3 gen regardless of any cap because "OH LOOK KILLER GOT A SMALL % BUFF"
Seriously, they're limiting regression per gen, how is this not a good compromise regardless of how they adjust it?
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Just go for chases instead of kicking gens, you’ll have a better time anyway. Bring no way out to extend the match.
i don’t get people worried about this but maybe I find kicking gens super boring and would rather chase
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A kick is 2.5% instant regression, the bare minimum to account for the animation it takes to inflict it. With fewer kicks that's fewer 2.5% instant regression events. If you're only kicking gens half as much to ensure continuous passive regression, that's also half as much instant regression. For the same passive regression value, you're getting half as much instant regression.
For example, a survivor gen tapping currently results in 2 kicks for 5% total regression. Without the tap halting the passive regression, it would only be possible to inflict 1 kick for 2.5% instant regression.
Let's not pretend an extra 2.5% is even that significant either. Survivors inflict more damage just by letting go at the wrong time.
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Ok, so I got it right. Because Killers got a Buff they need to be compensated with a Buff. Makes sense.
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The 3 gen “solution” already has the base ability to deny a Killer from kicking a gen twice let alone 8 times and Devs didn’t even acknowledge this.
Gen kick perks are going to see a decrease in pick rate.
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Because if they did not remove the "gen tap" then it would eat up all 8 kicks VERY quickly. So it would then impact most if not every matches. In order to stop the killer from being able to indefinitely regress generators, gen tapping has to go.
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Read the OP post again and you'll notice this isn't a killer whining.
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It was to be expected that they couldn't keep their word on that part. Instead they try adjust it so that it will only affect normal games in very rare cases. They even gave killers some strong compensation for it. Although I think they were a little overeager on that front (5 seconds to stop a gen regressing is a lot).
Maybe they can adjust it so that survivors now automatically repair a gen for at least 1-1.5 seconds before they can let go again and allow killers to kick gens without regressing them, so that they can still use kick perks. I think that is fair compromise.
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I think the numbers should be toned down to 3s. 3% regression from a kick, 3% to repair to stop regression, and regression events don't count unless they're 3% or more.
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I think the issue is that a niche outcrop got pruned, but the compensatory buff is going to have wider impact.
It'd be comparable to the MFT nerf being paired with survivor movespeed being increased to 101% across the board, as a 'compromise'.
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With a limited amount of kicks, the buff just gives a fair recourse for killer. If it does become a problem, I'm sure BHVR will fix it.
And I would not say that's comparable at all, the changes were made because killer now has limited kicks/regression events. A fairer example would be if they kept MFT but gave all the killers a 3% haste basekit as compromise, or something along those lines.
And even then it's what, an extra 3 seconds you repair? Just repair when the killer leaves. When I tested it all in the PTB, I was able to get that 5% done and then some before they came back when a 3 gen was attempted.
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The limited amount of Kicks dont matter if they are not reached anyway most of the time.
Sure, there will be some Killer who claims they kick Gens 32 times each game. But in the majority of the games it will not happen and the Devs also went for 8 Regression Events because it is a rare occurence that so many Regression events are reached.
It is just a flat-out buff which was neither needed nor asked for.
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I think a major issue is that that all forms of gen damage is counted. From hook based perks to Surge, it’s like they want to remove 3-Genning but don’t see the forest through the trees.
biggest issue is Gen placement in most cases
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They probably are trying to avoid survivors making a strategy around a killer hitting the 8 regressions. It wouldn't surprise me if it became normal to put a slight amount of progress on each gen you pass, just so random surge procs start hitting gens that realistically didn't have progress. This would be pointless in normal gameplay, but all of a sudden have a point when players know there's a limit to those regressions and deleting them early for no real benefit can come in handy later.
People have a tendency of changing the way they play to Game a mechanic HARD. Sabo became SUPER common when the basekit unbreakable PTB came out. Killers who wouldn't have slugged survivors were forced to do just that.
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The things you make up are not even funny.
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Yes, but the point is that you don't hit that limit in normal gameplay. So that limitation in the amount of kicks is not a nerf at all, unless you're trying to lock down a 3-gen from the start and drive it up to the 60 minute mark. So why would you get compensated for a nerf that's not going to affect you?
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How often do your killer damage your gens more than 8 times?
Gen-tapping was unfair to the killers begin with and for a very long time, its only a fair change.
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So... you reply with a completely pointless comment? At no point did I make a joke.
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Oh, sorry, I did not think that you were serious about your post.
Yeah, I would say this is a non-issue. The average Survivor apparently does not even know that they have to do Gens, do you really think they will figure out such a strategy?
It was just a flat-out Buff because the Devs thought they have to give Killers something back when they limit the Regression-Events. Truth is, the Devs would not have needed to give a compensation, but yet there is another freebie.
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It is depressing to think that infinite Wiretap will not be fixed and that there will be more matches where the killer PoP and other Gen Kick perks will not be available. Management has said on Twitter that they are aware of the glitches, but I don't know if there is any chance of fixing them.
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Under this thought pattern, you're screwed no matter what the devs do since your teammates are just derping in the corner. This change won't affect you at all, yay.
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Well, it was survivors that complained so... you played yourself.
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To be fair, I think BHVR just meant the regression events change when they said it won't affect normal matches.
As to the other changes, I don't think there's much of an issue here. Both of them revolve around things that have been talked about for at least as long as I've been playing - gen tapping, and base regression being bad + not worth it. I figure BHVR were already looking at generators to fix 3-genning, and decided to address gen tapping and boost base regression at the same time since they were already "in the neighbourhood", so to speak.
I do kinda wish they'd decided to increase the base regression rate instead of the instant damage on kick, since that'd affect more than just dry kicks, but I guess that is something that'd need more dedicated testing so I suppose it's fair to go the other direction.
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