SWF with "Anti-Hook" tactics - might be the best counter for tunneling
So, from personal experience:
My SWF had enough of 'bully' killers that tunneled people at 5 gens and proxy camped. While these are allowed game tactics, they're annoying AF.
So, we decided to give back and went full hook denial with our perks, stuns, flashbangs, and sabo. While it can lead to a swift death, it significantly improved our survival rate, some killers even quit the game.
I still think this might be the meta to counter the tunneling now.
(Sucks for solo queue survivors though.)
What do you think?
Comments
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What do you think?
I think it will cause a lot of frustration on the killer side. Enough for them to switch to nurse next game and pay it back to the upcoming innocent group.
You dont fight unpleasent experience with unpleasent experience so to say.
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Well, you used something that is frowned upon to counter something that is also frowned upon.
Doesn't that just makes the match miserable for everyone involved?
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We see plenty of nurses and blights tunneling and proxy camping, so one more nurse wont change anything.
And we tried with "Playing Nice" for a long time, that dosnt work, apperently nice guys finish last..
Now its time to fight fire with fire... (for us at least)
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I mean, sure. What ever floats your boat I guess
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Same as killers who decide to make their next group's game miserable after they get stomped, just ruins the game for more people.
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So what? we cant use the perks in the game because it ruins it for others??
Sounds just like the people hating on killers that use NOED, its a part of the game, ofc. it goes...
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Good on ya. I don't blame you, I'd probably do the same thing if I SWF'd.
No one should be giving you crap for fighting back. Your enjoyment of a match and how much fun you have matters too. You don't have to just keep 'taking it', especially when you have a way of stopping it. Keep fighting the good fight!
Also this whole 'well you're ruining it for the next group of players' mentality needs to stop. You don't know that, you're just assuming. And on top of that, no one should feel guilty or bad for playing a video game the way they want to (as long as no rules are broken).
~from the depths of solo que
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What may be bullying for some may be interactions for others. It's a shame we can't coordinate Head Ons or sabo breaks without someone thinking they are getting bullied.
And then people wonder why gens fly because it's frowned upon to break a hook or make a FTP play.
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Question is did you use this 'tactic' on a killer who tunneled? Or on the next killer who wasn't tunneling, but probably will from now on because of you?
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You are being way too vague. Tunnelling and proxy camping aren't bullying, they are strategies. It's an efficient way to achieve killer objective.
In my mind Bully squads are survivors that barely do gens, they all group up to stun and blind the killer just to annoy them. If the killer is experienced they can deal with it. I have 2.5k hrs and majority of my playtime is on killer and whenever i go against squads like this they always die at 3 or more gens. They play predictably, they play as if the killer is an idiot and or a new player.
"hook denial" is very vague. I mean the survivor objective is to not get hooked.
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I would advise that you react accordingly to how the killer plays. If you want to be a "bully" squad don't start the bully tactics unless the killer does it first.
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4 out of 5 matches are with tunneling killers, its called to adapt to the most common play style.
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Not in my experience, more like 2 in 5. Still a problem. Not the majority.
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As someone who tends to play snowbally killers, I fully endorse this tactic. Please swarm me on Nurse, Spirit, Plague, Hag, or my other mains.
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Can i ask what server you play on?
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Using the chosen terminology to demonize the killer methods is not a good way to begin your proposed method to help the game. With that out of the way, choosing your teams best method to achieve your goal is what your team should always strive for. If you do not have strong loopers this tactic is a good alternative for your group. The groups reasoning just based on your phrasing was a bit negate, but finding your way to success is a win.
I play equally as survivor and killer. I enjoy seeing new tactics in general. It just improves my gameplay. I hope it was more the negative experience led your team to think up a strategy rather than how to best torture another.
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P100 Nurses and Blight equipping best add-ons and perks along with map offerings telling themselves never again after this.
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Congrats you've created more nurses and blights with 4 meta perks and 4 man slugging
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Odds are they were already playing Blight with Lethal Pursuer, Alchemist Ring, and Blighted Crow.
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If survivors won't let me hook them, I'll usually just bleed them out.
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This is really a weak argument.
You see those Killers against completely chill teams. Most Killers dont adapt their Playstyle, even if the Survivors will clearly not win anyway.
@Topic:
While I totally understand this and honestly, the part of the Killer Community who decides to tunnel every game and wants to make it as unfun as possible for the Survivors (and those are not a small minority) deserve it, you will most likely just hit some chill Killer with that after facing a bully-Killer.
Using the frustration in the next game to make it as miserable as possible for the opposite side is not really working. And this goes for both sides.
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...And why do you see nurses and blights? hmm?
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Revenge is a fools game. If they do end up playing as you described, which is very common these days, then let the canonns loose and hit them hard because you're only matching their energy. As others have said, playing like that 24/7 only creates more of these killers we all hate to face.
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Because they are the strongest Killers? Hmm?
I dont think that the major motivation for Killers to play Nurse and Blight is that they got bullied in a past game and are now on a revenge-trip.
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Its a bit random, our SWF community have both strong loopers and not so strong loopers, we are more than just 4 is its all about who is playing, its not about demoralizing the other side, but simply to counter the constant tunneling. :)
I think you get me all wrong, its not about revenge, but countering the constant tunneling.
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I went up against one of these "bully" squads while I had one perk no addon huntress on rpd earlier today. I mean they had it all sabo, boil over, ftp buckle, boon expo, flashlights, bgp, petrified oaks, and even a gen goblin. It was rough ngl but at the end of the day its just using perks and strats to the best of your abilities, just like tunneling and camping with 4 slow down perks is a strat. I like the change of pace instead of the stealthy gen goblins. I don't too much care for either style but I respect them as viable strats. The survivors goal is to waste as much of the killers time as possible and the killers goal is to well... Kill as fast as possible. The ideal way to win is always gonna be unfun for the opposite side.
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I see this tactic plenty, and I don't tunnel, so the survivors doing it aren't trying to counter me or my playstyle, they're demanding I play in a way I don't want to so they can use the perks they brought. The number of survivors who desperately try to annoy me to get me to tunnel them so they can show off their anti-tunnel build is astounding. And when I refuse to chase them and go stare at an exit gate because I've finished my challenge or daily or whatever and since I'm not having fun there is no incentive for me to continue playing, a surprising number of survivors will disconnect rather than do gens and take the free win. (They'll also disconnect if I counter their build by slugging the four of them and letting them bleed out, so the survivors have a very specific way they want the match to go and any deviation on my part upsets them.)
In other words, the problem with asking "Is this playstyle good?" is that you're probably asking if it's okay to play that way all the time, and if you're playing to "bully" a tunneling killer who's not actually tunneling, and if you play in a way that makes every non-meta killer you face miserable, then you risk not having non-meta matches, whether it's because killers quit or go AFK or you only get Nurse slugging matches so that you're regularly spending 4 minutes each trial watching YouTube as you wait to finish bleeding out. You're playing against a person, not a bot, so tailor how you play to that person's playstyle, otherwise what you're doing isn't so much countering them as spreading the misery around.
Edit: In general, a hook-denial build is by definition good for countering getting hooked, and getting hooked is part being tunneled out, ergo yeah, anti-hook builds are good for countering tunneling. A hook-denial build will help against any killer who's not playing to get a four-man slug. Hook-denial is a valid tactic. You used the word "bully" in your original post, and in regards to bullying, that's not so much a valid tactic to win as it is a way to make your opposition miserable and encourage them to quit, which shouldn't be anyone's goal.
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True, i did also put it in " because i dont think its bullying, but its my understanding that a lot of players see it that way.
The only way i see it as bullying is when survivors dont do gens and only focus on tautning the killer into the playstyle they want, much as you described.
"We" in our swf, dont play to bully but to survive and get gens done, using the perks at our disposal...
Tho i might spit some curses when the killers are tunneling at 5 gens. :)
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It was meant to be a joke. But if being serious, against chill teams which suggests lower MMR you will get a plethora of more killers to face besides meta killers, I don't play survivor that good and stick around the MMR where you can still get Trappers and Freddies, and inevitably if you play sweatier and really don't want to lose again (at least most as possible) you will play Nurse, Blight, Spirit, and other top tier killers.
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While it can lead to a swift death, it significantly improved our survival rate, some killers even quit the game.If you are employing a strategy in an attempt to win the game, its not bullying.
Things like gen rush and tunneling are unfun/unfair because they never give the other side a chance. Bullying are things like leaving survivors to bleed out or infinite head ons that are meant to trap someone else.
What you're talking about seems to be just what the survivors should do (unless you are playing comp with different win conditions). You should really try and prevent any survivor from being eliminated, so if a killer is going for a tunnel then you definitely want body blocks, flashy saves, hook sabos, etc.
This is one of the reason many on the forum encourage killers not to tunnel, because it will eventually get them to an MMR were they hit SWFs like you who have the coordination to counter it.
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No one is saying you -can't- use those things, but you do so knowing it's miserable to go against so it certainly doesn't make you a good person.
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Yeah, I don't buy the narrative that most games involve hard tunneling killers. I have multiple thousands of hours and for me it's maybe 1 or 2 of 5 matches. Tops. Either people are lying, exaggerating, or have really loose definition of tunneling. Or they had a bad small sample run of tunneling killers and are having an overreactive moment.
But most likely a narrative people sell themselves on to excuse playing like dbags, like killers who tunnel because "everyone genrushes".
My problem with the premise of the OP is that a full hook denial build isn't something you tack on just in case the killer tunnels. That's not a reaction, that's a gameplan. Full hook denial is obnoxious, especially when it's a SWF, who were already playing at an advantage. I've rarely seen a team just start denying hooks mid-match; the come out of the gate doing it.
I don't know what the solution for tunneling is, but going into every match with full hook denial in the forefront of your mind isn't it. That going meta is only going to lead to increased toxicity and a major spike in slugging/bleedouts.
I'm pretty chill as a killer, but hook denial squads are one of the few things that can induce me to play in a really nasty, ruthless fashion. Ironically, my response to a really effective hook denial squad is to target one or two of them and make sure that their experience is as miserable as mine is.
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there's nothing wrong with bringing stronger perks or playing better when you get tough opponents.
As long as they aren't being toxic in endgame chat or intentionally trying to make killers DC/have a bad time, and just playing in a way that denies hooks (which killers define as "bully" but is not really), then this is fine.
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To comment on OP's point, yes I think this is more efficient than anti-tunnel like DS and OTR. FTP Buckle up combo and flip flop power struggle combo are great in SWF to prevent hooks and tunneling. Even better both cannot be countered by lightborn, iron grasp, etc and do not rely on items. Pallets are somewhat of a finite resource but should be enough to power through the gens and escape.
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Hope your entire swf squad is on anon mode. Assuming your MMR reaches a point where all you see are good Killers, some of them will recognize your squad names and either lobby dodge or bring a build to counter your altruism build.
If I see you complaining about Killers lobby dodging your swf a few months from now resulting in longer queue times, you get no sympathy from me.
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I think play how you want. Killers can slug, tunnel, camp, and survivors can use the tools and tactics at their disposal as well. I have no problem with people matching sweat for sweat.
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This is something I've noticed more and more I've been playing, started playing during Christmas with some friends since we had free time then, and now I find myself solo queuing since our work schedules not matching anymore. It's been extremely frustrating finding tunneling killers and some that just leave you on the ground while staring at you.
Fortunately, most games aren't like that but sometimes one gets unlucky like I did today, and out of 5 or 6 games you get 2 games with killers being very annoying hard tunneling and leaving you on the ground, and those games have the potential to ruin the whole gaming session for the rest of the day when it happens.
But In the same coin, I could see "bully" squads being very unfun for the killers as well and ruining their fun for the rest of the session, and since it's a video game, you know, everyone would like to have fun.
Said that I like to know tips from you guys on how to help a little bit against killers leaving you in the ground or tunneling. Is there something one can do to counter it as a solo queue? I'm still very inexperienced in this game and sometimes I struggle a lot, so any tips are welcome! 😊
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I say fight fire with fire.
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if a whole team is on the killer, no one is progressing the game state in their favor, I'd say bully squads only work with a large experience difference.
but then again Ive seen many 1k+hr players matched with people with 12hrs in the game before.
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Congratulations, you got sick of killers ruining your game, so you went out of your way to ruin the game for other players. No regard for the fact that the people whose games you're ruining are likely not the ones who ruined yours.
You're just bragging about adding more toxicity to the community.
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background player+flashbang and For the people+Buckle up squad are annoying to play as killer. you constantly get denied from first hooks for long while. Tunneling becomes increasingly difficulty.
Your not wrong when you say that the match feels like a killer bully simulator.
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I play nice for most of my matches. Don't let some people get to you.
We can always be better.
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so you went out of your way to ruin the game for other players.Wait, what? What are you even babbling about?
Taking it a bit to the extreme, are we? I bet you are one of the tunneling killers.
I did reply to that already more than once. It's not to annoy anyone but to survive, using the perks in the game (you would have known if you had read the thread).
And it's not like we don't do gens.
Aren't you a bit thin-skinned to play the game if you think that's going out of our way to annoy people?
Also, this is not a brag thread but an attempt to discuss if this is the new meta with all the tunneling going on. But I guess you see what you want to see?.
I didnt say that?
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The problem is you will then just lose because less people are doing gens. I myself have never lost to a bully squad in ages because its simply not effective.
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Why do you even call it a bully squad? we are trying to survive.
And as i stated, the matches started going better, than before we did this.
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It is never a good idea to take your frustrations out on unrelated people.
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I am sure they can, but a killer who does not give an f will just simply ignore the tactics an use the counters against them and then you are left with a survivor team who has less people on gens, which favours the killer.
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Try reading the thread, im kinda tired of repeating my self by now
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Exactly, we dont do it to make the other side missarable but to survive, sadly there is a lot of people that draw the wrong clonclusion from this, i guess people see what they want to see. The fact that i even have had to explan this to several people in this thread speaks for it self.. they assume this is to annoy the killer.
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