Grim Embrace + Dead Man's Switch isn't that strong, but could be a problem.
After just a few games, i finding that GE+DMS isn't as strong as people make it out to be for a couple reasons. Firstly, you lose a good chunk of the value of GE to the DMS since they don't stack DMS just takes priority. Additionally. To trigger the GE for the DMS to proc as well, you need to move 16 meters away from the hook. And this takes a little under 4 seconds. Meaning at best you are getting 26 seconds of value from the DMS.
Additionally, i have found that survivors after just a few games are already adapting, and similar to the old Pain res + DMS combo where they let go of the gen just before the hook happened, they are letting go of the gen a couple seconds after a hook, meaning the DMS never ends up proccing. Then you wait the 12 seconds for the GE,. and by then you only have 12 more seconds of DMS left if they hit the gen.
The big problem i see with the perk though, is the opposite problem. If survivors let go of a gen suspecting the DMS+GE combo like they did with the pain res + pop one, how the GE activates is the problem. It is entirely in control of the killer WHEN it procs, because they just move away from the hook. This means that they can camp a bit in that 16 meter range and the survivors let go of the gens expecting the combo, but that's actually the opposite of what they want to be doing in a camping scenario.
Because the combo itself has counterplay that isn't even a perk and just gameplay, and the fact that the combo itself isn't that strong and takes 2 perk slots, i would propose the following change to Grim Embrace:
Your act of servitude to The Entity has not gone unnoticed.
Each time a Survivor is hooked for the first time, Grim Embrace gains +1 Token and activates once you are at least 16 metres away from the Hook, or 10 seconds after hooking a survivor.
- 1-3 Tokens: Blocks all Generators for 8/10/12 seconds.
- 4 tokens: Blocks all Generators for 40 seconds and the aura of the Obsession is revealed to you for 6 seconds.
This means that the killer can't "hold" the Grim embrace to camp and keep survivors off the gens through this mindgame that promotes and strengthens camping. With this, they can keep the interaction between the 2 perks since it isn't that strong to begin with.
Comments
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What also helps against this combo is.. lasting longer in chase.
But typical people going down in a few seconds and will rather complain than adapt.
I personally don't mind it getting removed since I don't use it anyways. But like most gen slowdown, it will get nerfed because of players who are bad in chase.
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You know, in all the discussion of the GE/DMS combo, I legitimately forgot Grim Embrace has the hook distance requirement. Just knowing that makes the combo a lot less intimidating.
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jUsT wait iT oUt bRo. honestly it not that bad as old eruption because u can just let go. Still it ridiculous overall
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Not to mention that the killer is using 2 perks to essentially double the GE proc. I imagine it'll fall out of flavor when killers realize that they would get more value running a different perk in one of those slots since they don't stack.
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Been testing it out and it's not bad but nowhere near as strong as I thought it was going to be. Certainly not anything resembling old eruption. I'm curious if you also have to commit to the thrilling tremors or Deadlock as well to really see value.
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Thrilling only blocks gens not being worked on. So using it in conjunction with GE + DMS wouldn't really do anything since the whole point of comboing the perks is to block gens being worked on longer.
You can't really control when gens get done so it'll hard to make deadlock work consistently as part of a combo.
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"Isn't that strong"
I disagree, I did a game with Pain Res DMS Grim Embrace on Trapper and was in complete control once I started getting downs and this was after losing two gens off rip. It should not stay in the game.
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I was going to make exactly the same post. I swear this community only trying to create a problem out of everything. It's not bad combo, but nowhere near buys you as much time as other slowdowns. Not to mention it works only 3 times (and 4th time it does nothing with dms), but on my Artist i can block gens literally after every hook and people still doing fine.
If they will nerf it, I will no longer have any doubt that they are making balance changes based on who is crying louder.
– We are so tired from tunneling, pain res + pop.
– There is some other okish alternative for killers, which reward spreading hooks.
– ITS OP NERF IT NOBODY CANT STAND A CHANCE AGAINST IT!!!!!
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Regardless of how good/bad it actually is (I think it's broken as heck), it's not fun at all to go against.
I know you could make the same argument for any perk you don't like, but hear me out, being completely locked out from participating in the game's main objective is never going to be fun. It's like going against the sabo squads who go down in areas they know you can't hook them at, it's infuriating and unhealthy to just never be able to play the game essentially.
Doesn't mean blockage perks shouldn't ever be allowed to exist, but they need to be careful designing them and keep their synergy in check because having your gen get blocked again and again and again and again is gonna get tiring and unfun because it'll feel like you can never really participate in the game's main objective.
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I don't even know why everybody said it was OP in the first place. Just as with any DMS combo, like DMS + PR, you just let go the gen when you know it would trigger. Problem solved.
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That still results in 12 seconds of blockage + however much time it takes for the killer to exit the 16m range. It's a win-win regardless.
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Its like if the combo block Gens for 3mins and killers would be like "Just last 4min in chase"
Similar to if slowdown heavily nerfed and survivors telling "Just make chases shorter".
Its a really bad argument.
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imagine thinking that simply walking 4 seconds away is a chore and makes the unhealthy perk combo totally fair and justified lol.
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If this were true, then DMS+BBQ Artist would be unbeatable. And i get a lot (i mean A LOT more) value with this combo on her, than with GE+DMS. If it worked after every hook, it would make sense to discuss it. But 3 times per game + it has counterplay + no one is taken out of the game early. Some people just see a closed generator and go crazy, not realizing how much it really slowed down the game compared to other perks.
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It's a win-win regardless.
[...] it's not fun at all to go against.
And? Going against someone with Bucke Up + FTP and getting people up in front of you with 10 seconds endurance it's not fun to go against and it is a win-win. Going against a gen rushing bully squad it's also not fun and if they got it their way it's a win-win. Deadhard grants you an extra health state while granting you the speed of getting hit and it's cooldown for the killer and it's also a win-win. Adrenaline grants you a free heal in the end game no matter you are hooked and it's also a win-win in that situation.
Not Grim Embrace or GE + DMS combo are overpowered in any way, as DMS still has the same counter as always and GE only works 4 times in a match and as long as you hook at least 1 time every survivor, something that any PR user can tell you it's not always possible to do in a match.
Being strong and /or "not fun to go against" it's no reason to balance things, and this game's community it's the only one to think so specially when talking about killer's perks.
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I know everyone is a Burger King Myers main when something like this comes up and we get to talking about chase times, but it's completely unrealistic for a team to overcome map wide gen blocking on the scale of GE+DMS if the killer player is good and plays a decent killer.
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Additionally, i have found that survivors after just a few games are already adapting, and similar to the old Pain res + DMS combo where they let go of the gen just before the hook happened, they are letting go of the gen a couple seconds after a hook, meaning the DMS never ends up proccing.
Just to clarify whether or not I'm being dumb... you meant "they are letting go before the hook meaning DMS never procs".
Surely if they let go after the hook, the gen would be blocked by DMS? They need to let go before the hook and wait, which then feeds into your next point.
A simpler fix might be to change the range to somewhere in the region of 8~12m. That way if the killer camps they've got to sit in faster AFC charge range.
There is also an argument to just have it proc immediately... I assume the 16m range was to encourage the killer not to camp and leave the target hook to proc it, but this is already dealt with by the AFC, and can of course be ignored to have the killer come back... so if that isn't what it's for, I'm not sure really what the 16m trigger is trying to accomplish.
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Blocking every gen on the map without any counterplay, 4 times per match, is such a "holding killers like babies" implementation into the game. Patrolling gens and applying pressure is outdated, I guess. Now you can regress gens (pain res) AND block them (grim embrace and/or DMS) without moving more than 16 meters away from the hook. You control so many things in the match without actually leaving the hook and checking gens. Does no-one find this ridiculous?
When I start losing gens rapidly mid-game, I know that I failed at applying decent pressure. I should not be given the crutch of being able to block all gens so I don't throw a tantrum for losing a game when I was not doing well that game. What's next? A perk that activates when you hook a survivor for the first time, and it makes everyone injured/broken for x seconds? Going out, finding and hunting survivors? Not anymore. With this new product, you can now injure and down survivors from the coziness of your couch/ proxy camping.
I swear, soon enough, killers will be able to injure, down and kill survivors without ever leaving that first hooked survivor. And all gens will be exploding and getting blocked for 50% of the match. Kind of feels like FNAF lol. You just stay at one place and control everything.
What a lazy, boring direction this game is taking, sheesh.
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These days I've been playing Legion, Skull Merchant, etc. and most of the matches I just go around the whole map and patrol. It's so exciting finding survivors, chaining hits as legion (including maps like Family Residence, I swear, I crossed the entire map multiple times as the Legion the other day, and had so much fun. It didn't even occur to me to sit on a 3-gen or around a hook).
I LOVE going around the map, patrolling gens, and finding survivors, and chasing them. Why are the devs now discouraging that? That's very sad.
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You need to remember, many killers cannot easily apply this so called pressure as you say, they did with old ruin but as usual nerfs. The only killers who realistically can apply pressure are mobile killers, most aren't that, also with basekit hud it's easier to stay on gens when somebody is in chase. Not to mention windows making it easy to chain loops, if you're not an anti loop killer you're screwed. Yes, you can leave loops but then it will be the same cycle. 1-2 gens on average pop and the cycle repeats itself. Now the k is forced to slug and tunnel somebody out.
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Yeah, but this is not the way. Nurse and Blight will be obliterating survivors left and right now with Grim Embrace. They did not need any help. And survivors cannot play around GE.
Baseit Corrupt intervention would have been a much healthier solution. Instead, they introduced a solution that's gonna make solo Q miserable, and Blight and Nurse unbearable.
Also they should nerf Nurse and Blight (we'll see how blight feels now), and buff weaker M1 killers. And what did the devs do?? They butchered STBFL (used by weaker killers, and not Blight/Nurse). And you still cannot prevent 2-3 gens from popping during your first chase as a weak M1 killer, just by using GE. 'cause you need to hook to activate it. Rip weaker killers. But hey Nurse and Blight got buffed again (with GE).
Imo, so many wrong implementations with this patch, that hurt M1 killers and buff S-tier killers. And make solo Q miserable. And the Lunar event got removed. Rip fun, I guess.
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You're being unrealistic. Nothing will ever be added that blocks all gens for 3 minutes.
You cant compare 3 minutes to 30 seconds. And you can heavily deny the Killer their Perks if you can last long in chase. Bad soloq teammates isn't really an argunment, anyone can get better.
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Stop with this incorrect timing crap. People did this same thing with Eruption too, to downplay the impact.
It's not 30 seconds, it's 30 seconds *per survivor*.
So you're already at 90 seconds with the first proc of the game, for the 3 survivors who weren't in chase... which is when people will first discover it's even in play.
And I'll also add that there's basically nothing to do in that window either. First hook usually means no one else is injured, and only one person has to go for rescue. So it's effectively guaranteed that two survivors are going to have to...
Just wait it out.
If your 'gameplay' is functionally the same as looking at a screenshot of a gen for 30 seconds, that's not gameplay. It's a ######### mechanic.
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So, DMS only procs when the survivor is actually repairing the generator and lets go. So what you do is, right before a survivor is hooked, you let go of the gen, then grim embrace pops when the killer moves away and blocks the gen for 12 seconds, then you can continue working on the gen, this means you aren't blocked for the entire 30 seconds of DMS, but rather around 16 seconds (4 seconds of grim embrace travel time, and 12 of grim embrace itself)
It is a similar strategy people employ against pain res + DMS, because pain res kicks you off the gen and makes DMS happen, but if you let go of the gen just BEFORE the pain res pops the gen, then get back on it, you aren't "off the gen" and can keep working on it, assuming the killer doesn't interrupt you some other way.
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Right, better that the killer just hard tunnels someone out then. Grim embrace is actually a super healthy perk that actively encourages you to NOT tunnel in order to get value. It is the exact kind of perk that survivors should LIKE because it means they aren't getting camped/tunneled every game, which from these forums complaints (which probably is an exaggeration) appears to be happening to everyone all the time.
Simply saying: "when i lose multiple gens fast i know i failed" is too simplistic. The game is designed in such a way that at a high level the killer is basically guaranteed to lose 2-3 gens in the first chase. And if that is not happening to you, or for your team in your games, then you are likely at a lower MMR. Which is not an insult, but just a reality.
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Nurse and blight were doing that BEFORE grim embrace. That is the point we are making. How about a trapper, or a freddy, or now a sadako who is god awful again? They need the help of a perk like this. We shouldn't be making balance decisions around perks with nurse in the equation. She completely breaks the game fundamentally and just needs a total rework, which is a separate concern to the perks themselves.
It is the same point i made with the STBFL nerf, nurse blight and spirit are still gonna be nurse blight and spirit and won't care. But that trapper, or that freddy are suddenly going to be hit very hard by that nerf.
This is the problem survivor players tend to make when they complain about something. They see something that nurses are using as super OP. But now, think about it in the hands of a low tier killer like freddy or trapper. Is that thing still OP? If it is not, it probably isn't the thing being OP, but just nurse being nurse.
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In your hypothetical scenario though, you forgot one thing. Decent survivor teams should have finished 2-3 gens before that hook happens. So now the slowdown kicking in after that is literally by design meant to slow the game down. How else is a killer supposed to do it against a team of 4 survivors split on different gens when a chase is balanced around lasting 45 seconds. And at MINIMUM if a survivor just runs in a straight like shift + w to comp corner, it'll take the killer 58 seconds to down them and hook them?
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It is becoming a problem. No way to complete gens with these perks they use now: scourge hook pain resonance, dead Man's Switch, and grim embrase. Gens are all the time closed, and when the perks stop to work there is no time to complete gens cause survs got hooked twice or killed. Solo q is terrible now
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100% this. Its the old Eruption issue all over again, just slightly less bad since I guess survivors can open chests if they want while they wait. I don't know why BHVR thought this was acceptable. These 2 perks should absolutely not work together at all.
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The new Grim Embrace is an amazing way to encourage killers not to tunnel. I haven't tried it as killer yet, but as surv going up against it, games have been alot more fun, 'cause no tunnels!
The synergy with DMS has a very easy counter of letting go of gens just before killer hooks (like with pain res) and waiting 12 seconds. I'll take that anyday over getting tunnelled.
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The perk is not that bad, people just like to stack it with other perks creating the most annoying combo they can. And to rub the salt in the wound, they tunnel and then say: jUsT gIt GuD!
Not saying everyone plays like this, but some people do and thats why survivors complain.
Using Grim Embrace and Dead Man Switch is a new meta, ofc a ton of killers will use it as much.
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Tunnelers gonna tunnel regardless of perks, and i keep saying it, but if you are tunneling with this perk combo, you are still not getting much value out of it. The combo requires you to spread pressure and hooks. If you tunnel you don't do that. And i know you will say: "yeah but people tunnel and then just get value after" Which, sure, i'll agree. But if they are tunneling, and do it successfully, all the perks are doing at that point is helping them win harder. You could do the same with 0 perks.
The people who tunnel should be using perks that help them do that, rather than slowdown perks.
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I tried it and it seems mediocre because you can't find survivors and kick gens during the long duration. You need to also pair it with an info perk to get good use out of it, taking 3 perk slots in total. I prefer Grim Embrace + Pop.
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