General Discussions
General Discussions
Explain to me the counterplay to Ultimate Weapon
Comments
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There's a couple of perks that cause screaming
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Blindness counters nothing if you have a bit of map awareness. "Get good" is the solution.
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Blindness counters every killer aura perk, for one. That's not a case of 'get good', you don't get to use map awareness as a replacement for literally seeing the killer's aura, especially while looping.
Plus things that game awareness won't tell you, like where your teammates are and what they're doing. That's another thing Blindness counters.
TL;DR, that statement only works if you're still thinking about Windows of Opportunity after I've already said I'm not talking about that perk.
And, finally, there's the point of me bringing it up, which is that I'd like to use these off-meta, non-standard perks, and Ultimate Weapon's Blindness makes doing that annoying for no real reason. The Blindness proc isn't something the killer really actively uses in a way that's thematic or appropriate for the perk, so losing it wouldn't actually hurt the killer experience and it'd make the perk a hundred times less annoying to face on the survivor side. It's just an obviously good change.
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If you need to see the killers aura while looping, it IS a skill issue, and it IS a matter of "get good". Period. This is not an argument. I am objectively correct.
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So, I know you're not actually interested in a conversation, but just for the record for anyone else watching:
Wanting to, and needing to, are different things. Ultimate Weapon making it harder to do a thing you want to do for no real reason, as a secondary byproduct of a perk that the killer is running for a completely different reason, is an unnecessary annoyance you could easily remove without any problem.
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The issue with your statement is, you say "it's not a matter of git gud when it counters your aura reading perks, especially while looping the killer". When it comes to looping the killer and aura reading, the counter to that is to not build a dependency on your aura reading. AKA, get good.
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Not a dependency, we are talking about how it's annoying for Ultimate Weapon to have a secondary effect that is both annoying to face, and not all that helpful for the killer.
Blindness itself isn't necessarily a problem, but Ultimate Weapon's Blindness is both easy to apply and relatively lengthy, making it an annoyance the perk doesn't need.
Sure, you don't need to run any kind of aura perks. Most of them aren't even all that good! However, I'd also say it's not that healthy for there to be a popular perk on the killer side that heavily discourages any survivor from trying, especially when that perk is primarily picked for a completely different effect.
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No actually I argued that MFT was fine.
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"Making something you want to do harder"
You've just described every perk in the game.
And there are several perks that do multiple things.
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Works with dead mans switch, thats the problem.
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Seems like extra steps when you can just use Pain Res instead.
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Yes, taking those few words out of the context of the overall argument does make the argument a lot weaker.
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Meanwhile Infectious Fright is Dr. Carter's power with no cooldown after getting a down. Either I'm deaf or we're back to complaining just to complain.
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PR works on one gen, UW+DMS on all. I am suprised you are not aware of this combo.
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Yes that is something people can say when a part of their post is quoted but not the whole thing, except your "overall argument" didn't provide any additional context.
You feel inconvenienced by a killer perk. Killer perks are designed to inconvenience survivors.
It is possible to have a discussion about relative balance of this perk, bit it seems all anyone wants to do is whine about it even existing.
It has counterplay. There are other comparable perks. Are those perks similarly problematic? If not, why?
Such as:
Pain Res works on the exact gen you want it to work on. UW works on the gens within your terror radius.
That is a discussion point. Not "it's not fair that killers get a perk that stops me reading auras"
I don't even disagree that it could lose the Blindness effect and be just fine. But removing it because "it's an annoyance" isn't the argument you think it is.
Post edited by Seraphor on2 -
See, that's why you should probably pay attention to the overall argument, because yes there is more context.
The Blindness on Ultimate Weapon only annoys survivors, that's why it's fair to suggest removing it.
Take some other recent perks with multiple effects- Alien Instinct, and Friends Til The End.
These are both perks with a very similar design to Ultimate Weapon - they're information perks which also apply a status effect. For Alien Instinct, it's Oblivious, and for FTTE, it's Exposed. Both of these status effects are ones that it makes mechanical sense to apply at this time- the injured survivor is going to have to pay more attention to know you're coming, and the Obsession is going to need to be more careful too since they're vulnerable to a one-hit down.
Compare that to Ultimate Weapon. How does the killer actively utilise the Blindness when it procs? What is the throughline between revealing a survivor's location, and turning off that survivor's aura perks? You could maybe make an argument about specific perks that could be relevant in that scenario, like Windows or Dark Sense, but it's very much dependant on that survivor having brought those perks, and isn't something the killer's going to get feedback on if it's working. From the killer's perspective, the Blindness is a freebie that may or may not be doing anything, not one part of a coherent whole when it comes to perk design. From the survivor's perspective, multiple perks that might not even be relevant to the situation were just turned off for thirty seconds.
Whatever the original intent was behind adding Blindness, it currently only exists to be an annoyance, that's it. Preventing aura reading doesn't just affect perks like Windows, or even niche off-meta picks like I described elsewhere in the thread, it's also something that (indirectly) harms solo queue more than SWF since a lot of the good perks for solo are ones that reveal teammate auras + not being able to see slugged survivors is more impactful when there's no communication.
See how this isn't at all just "describing every perk", even if you don't agree with me?
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Why is there a sudden rule when it comes to killer perks that we need to do a fun side quest to meet the requirements to gain access to our perks??
let’s compare to sprint burst with it side by side, perk activates, then cool down. Ya looks about the same just without the need to search a locker to waste time
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That's a lot of words to say you don't understand the value of Windows. You use UW to find close by survivors and initiate a chase... which can really drag on when survivors have Windows.
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Remove the blindness effect and the perk is fine.
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...What?
How on earth does this disprove my point? How on earth is this not proving my point by resorting to holding up a very specific perk the survivor might not even have as the major selling point of the Blindness effect? How is this also not a completely different argument to the one you initially made?
I'm legitimately at a loss for words as to how you came to this conclusion based on my post.
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And both can only reveal you once per proc. Once you scream, you're invisible again until the killer can reactivate it. Of course DR is map dependent, while UW isn't. But UW has an effective radius, and DR doesn't. And with UW, the killer gets the scream, but that's it. I would argue that in most circumstances, the five seconds of aura is more useful. With the scream, you know where they were, but not which direction they were moving, etc.
As others have said here, the main reason people are more up in arms about UW than many of standard aura perks is that you get immediate feedback when you're revealed. With most aura perks, the survivor is blissfully ignorant that the killer sees them. Like half the time survs are like "oMG, hOw dId the kiLler knoW wh3re i wUz? hAx!" is because of totally legit aura reading that they had no idea was going on.
And the scream itself is useful info for the surv. You know your location has been revealed and can adjust accordingly. With most aura perks, you don't get any warning that the killer knows where you are.
Any survivor who runs Distortion consistently could tell you that killers are constantly seeing you. There are tons of aura perks out there, and many of those have more utility than UW. I get more value generally out of Nowhere to Hide than UW.
The only situations were UW is exceptionally useful is finding hiders/immersion gamers. And if you're the last surv alive, UW is your worst enemy. Beyond that, the value the killer gets from it is pretty mixed.
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The game does tell you what your team is doing. The profiles on the side tell you who's in chase, who's seen by the killer, who's on gen, who's healing, who's doing totems, and who's doing chests. The real important timer ones even have progress bars
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Yes, I slightly misspoke there. The perks I'm referring to would be telling you where your teammates are and some specifics of what they're doing-- like which generator in particular is being repaired, something the HUD doesn't tell you.
That, of course, doesn't change my overall point.
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Again, the issue is the uptime. Almost every other aura perk has contextual counters that you can play around. For example, BBQ you can hide behind a gen or in a locker when it procs. They have a much shorter window to reveal you than UW, and it's usually only in one moment.
With UW, you have to hope you're nowhere near the killer for every other 30 seconds potentially. It needs its duration taken down significantly.
Also, just because it's scream based doesn't make it inferior to other aura reading perks automatically. With every reveal you can pretty much always make it into a chase because the killer can make it to the scream bubble before Scratch Marks fade, and the Survivor can't make much distance at all from walking.
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Aura reads are a crutch for both sides. They're helpful, but not necessary
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Wait the last PTB batch in June dude :p
But, if you really really hate this perk.
Use diversion / Boon : Shadow Step + Calm Spirit :p
Yeah, having to use 2 perks slots ... that's a lot
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I apologise because there's no way for this to not sound demanding, but: I am going to need you to relate that to my point.
You can see what my point is, I've repeated it a few times.
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The point is that killers don't use it for the blind. Survivors are complaining about the secondary functionality because they have grown dependant on their crutches.
Uw blind is fine because the perks it affects still work on both sides of the effect. The only aura reads that are actually affected come from woo
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Close!
The point is that the Blindness status effect is a wholly disconnected freebie that the killer doesn't really have any cause or opportunity to actively use. On their end, the Blindness may as well not exist, it's arbitrary.
But for the survivor side, they have the annoyance of perks being turned off when they aren't actually relevant to the situation. You say that the only aura reads that are actually affected come from Windows, but that's... obviously not true, all aura reads are affected by this. If I'm running my totem build with Detective's Hunch or a Map, that's affected. If I'm running Kindred, Bond, or Empathy, that's affected. If I wanna bang out a chest-opening challenge with Plunderer's Instinct, that's affected.
I think the disconnect here is that everyone assumes a survivor screaming means the killer's going to chase them, but numerically, that can't actually be true. Only one of them will be chased, and every other survivor that screamed still has the annoying, unnecessary Blindness to deal with for no reason. Blindness is always kinda annoying in these circumstances, but it being slapped onto a perk that can apply it pretty consistently and that doesn't even benefit from applying it consistently is especially aggravating.
So, conclusion: removing the Blindness from Ultimate Weapon is a pretty reasonable suggestion. It's not about strength, it's not about "crutches" or "dependency" or what have you, it's just about it being annoying for one side and unnecessary for both sides. It's adding nothing but annoyance.
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Skill issue, if you can't loop without WoO
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Genuine question: Why on earth is everyone acting as though the Blindness only affects WoO?
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Probably because it's the first thing that comes to mind.
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Ultimate Weapon literally nullified the usefulness of BBQ, NTH, Nurses, etc. with the info it gives just by opening a locker.
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*checks the title*
😧
*Sees that there are two pages of responses*
💀🪦
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Because it is the most used survivor perk in the game. It is far more likely for Blindness to affect WoO than to affect anything else, such as Alert or OoO.
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Because people will scapegoat being outplayed on everything but themselves.
First it was DH, then MFT, now WoO is the "autopilot crutch perk" of this era.
Mind you blindness also affects hook and slug auras among other things as well.
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When else does it matter, generally? It's not hard to keep track of the aura of most things through a 30 second block. The only time it's really effective is in a chase, and usually because of WoO. I have to agree with the killer mains on this one, anyone saying the Blindness part is OP must be relying way too hard on aura-reading. The other half of UW massively powercreeps the entire suite aura reveal/stealth perks on both sides... but Blindness is the problem? I don't see it. When this perk gets its deserved nerf, I'd actually hope the Blindness effect stays as is.
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Well, I guess if you're talking very specifically and only about the strength of the aura blocking, that makes a bit more sense.
I'd probably still think of it blocking a perk that matters instead of Windows, but sure, I get where you'd be coming from if it's solely talking about the strength of the perk and nothing else.
The Blindness should still go, obviously, but it's not the strength of the perk that dictates it.
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In all seriousness, if a specific perk or tactic or whatever truly bothers you that much, then why not run a perk or perks you know will counter it? Its only actual detriment depends on how much you interact with chests and totems. If your not doing either on a regular basis, then use Calm Spirit and Ultimate Weapon ceases to be a problem.
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All those things are true. What I was trying to express was that there's more nuance to it than a lot of people are making out, and that UW isn't some singularly OP perk.
And if I were to rank perks that reveal surv's locations in terms of utility to me as killer, UW would not be at the top. Or even in my top 3.
As a surv, I would much rather the killer have UW than many of the other aura perk combos.
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Past few months it's the most common perk I've seen survivor's run. When I ran some sort of blindness perk/add-on the survivor would run away from the next loop due to a lack of game sense.
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As a Survivor, this actually makes me glad I don't run Windows.
As Killer my main use is Blindness has been to hide the generator I've Trail of Tormented or, as Pig, combining Blindness (via the Face Mask add-on) with Hex: Plaything, to make finding their Hexes that little bit more difficult. I add in Ruleset No. 2 to hide the Jigsaw Boxes on top of that.
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You don't think it's a little unfair to assume everyone talking about this perk's Blindness is the kind of person that relies on WoO to this degree?
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The controversy is around the Trigger of the perk vs its effect
Infectious Fright:
requires the killer to down a survivor first, If survivor knows the killer has infectious fright they can avoid it by staying away from the chased survivor.
The effect is based on where the killer got the down to begin with IT DOES NOT MOVE.
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Very interesting to see that people seem to conflate a counterpick with counterplay. People suggest Calm Spirit as counterplay, when it really is a counterpick. Not to mention that Counterpicking is just not a thing in DbD.
As for my two cents, the sheer strength from UW lies in the fact that it's on demand, that it moves with the killer (for 30 seconds!), AND has TR range at that. No other info perk is like that.
BBQ: Proc'd at specific, predictable moments, and has a ginormous blind spot. Additionally, it only lasts for 4 seconds, making it susceptible to lockers.
Nowhere to Hide: Only works within 24 meters, and only lasts 5 seconds. Only really does anything against survivors that weren't already running when you approached the gen. Additionally, now with the 8 kicks restriction, you can't just spam it out. Also susceptible to lockers.
Infectious: Only works on downs, thus cannot possible be considered "free" like UW can. The fact that it can only proc at the very instant you're going into a stagger cannot be ignored either.
The fact that it's a scream instead of an aura doesn't really change much about the strength of the perk. All you realistically need is a ping anyway. Hell, because it's a scream, you'd need to actively ignore it to not get any info from it. In that way, it's Whispers on steroids.
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Because survivors really only use woo. All other aura reads are garbage
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“This perk is uncountable and is so overused and overpowered it must be killswitched!”
”Use Calm Spirit”
”No”
survivors are amazing
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But when we applied the same logic to MFT and DH killers said the exact same thing.
Us Vs Them will never be a gotcha no matter how much you want it to be.
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That's obviously not true, lol.
Even if it were, it seems like a stretch to assume everyone's talking solely about WoO and then get snide about how it's a skill issue if they don't like it being disabled by an info perk.
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Mft had no counterplay besides committing to longer chases
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