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Explain to me the counterplay to Ultimate Weapon
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Killers can quite literally use it to find certain survivors to tunnel them, what are you talking about.
The "problem" of the perk is, that it has exactly one counter-perk that is extremely niche otherwise and can actually be detrimental due to the debuff it gives to totem and chest speeds...
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Totems don't move, detectives hunch is a garbage perk, you choose when to use maps, bond/empathy/empathetic connection all give consistent info (the survivor you saw across the map 5 secs ago is probably still in that area, same for 30 secs now that YOU have given the killer something to investigate)
Woo is the only perk that is really consistently denied in a real game scenario. On paper it does all of these great and terrible things, but blindness is kinda garbage. Complaining about it is a zero sum game because all it's going to do is add to the pile of unnecessary and arbitrary nerfs because one side or the other was inconvenienced in a minor way
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Considering that Blindness is kind of a garbage status effect that the killer isn't really going to notice or use much, and that it's also kind of annoying to deal with on the survivor side, would it not make sense to remove it from the perk?
You're kind of repeating my point back to me. There's no reason for the Blindness to be there, it doesn't really help the killer in any meaningful way (and when it does they'll never know because it's not something that meshes with the perk's main use), and the only impact it has on the game for any player is that it'll annoy survivors that try to bring in off-meta aura reading perks.
Like I've said, this is my point. It doesn't help killers, but it annoys survivors. The player who brought the perk isn't getting anything out of this effect, so it's not like they'll notice if it goes away.
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On the flip side, since blindness is garbage, there's no reason to get rid of it. Besides "it's a minor inconvenience sometimes." It's fine as is, I'd prefer the devs actually focus on meaningful changes and maybe buff the perks no one sees
THE ARGUMENT OF "IT'S A MINOR INCONVENIENCE" ISN'T ENOUGH OF A REASON TO NERF THE PERK
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I take the chase and try to do what I can for the team. In that situation, my aim for counterplay becomes positioning and loop/run the killer as long as possible so teammates can crank out gennies. Calm spirit...😖
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Not sure there is a counter, it can be used in multiple ways which doesn't help with countering it. I tried it on hillbilly with dms, grim embrace, and pain res. Used it just for hooking a survivor and then zooming around the map for forcing survivors off gens. I didn't find it fun knowing they were making no progress and I'm sure they didn't either. Blindness would've just been an added annoyance on top of it for the survivors.
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"Use the incredibly niche and almost detrimental perk JUST IN CASE I bring my press space bar on a locker to find out where you are perk"
You don't run UW
I now have a dead perk slot
Killers are amazing
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You dislike it yet you are capable of actually doing something to counter it. If you don't want to roll the dice on a just in case thats on you.
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It will never cease to amaze me just how thick people can really be...
30s of just popping into TR and screaming each activation is a little much. You can literally paint the ENTIRE map in that time. If you're "just trying to find someone for chase" you don't need 30s to do so. 5-10 would be more than enough.
The cooldown is a little low. If you're actively chasing someone (assuming you're not scraping the MMR barrel), the cooldown has probably been long over by the time you're done with your chase. 45s would balance things out more, especially if factoring the above point.
The blindness is completely uncalled for. There's every possibility that you're unable to use ANYTHING aura related for literally half of the game (assuming perfect uptime and being REALLY unfortunate). That's not JUST aura perks. That's also dying teammates, be they slugged or hooked. The fact there's no way to counter this aspect of it is completely broken. Yeah, the blindness STILL applies through calm spirit (unsure if intended or not, but...).
Since everyone LOVES to bring up how this is no different than any other aura perk, here we go:
DR: Limited range around lockers, which are VERY map dependent
BBQ/C: Once per HOOK and outside of a certain range
Infectious: Procs on a DOWN within a set range around the downed survivor, easily avoidable by getting away from them
NTH: Short duration and limited range (range is no different on Hag than Wesker), also not able to augmented by Monitor or Distressing
Floods: Procs on a SCOURGE HOOK UNHOOK and doesn't show the unhooked survivor
Nurses: Limited range and circumstantial
Alien Instinct: Shows you the FARTHEST INJURED survivor, not the person 3 feet from you - this perk is problematic for other reasons, not going into it on this thread
Bitter Murmur: Only procs when a gen is completed
Eruption: Shows IF they're holding the affected gen while you down someone
FttE: Shows you obsession on hook or scream on hooking if non-obsession
Gearhead: Shows aura on good skill check for 30s after injuring someone
IAEars: Shows aura on a fast vault
Lethal: Shows at beginning of match on extends aura times, otherwise useless after first 10s are over
Nemesis: Shows on obsession change
Rancor: Shows auras on gen completion
Hangman's Trick: Shows you auras of those around scourge hooks while carrying someone
THWACK!: Scream and show aura on breaking wall or pallet after getting a hook
Territorial Imperative: Shows aura of someone entering basement if you're beyond 24m
In all of this, there's only one perk that's not reliant on something out of the killer's control that's also timed. And that's Darkness Revealed, which has a MASSIVE blind spot and is EXTERMELY map dependent. But, yeah, let's keep saying that UW and other perks are the same.
Reduce the activation duration, increase the cooldown time to compensate, and remove the blindness. It's still going to be stupidly powerful (if you're not able to get value out of just a scream showing you where someone is, sounds like a skill issue).
Also, y'all keep trying to compare distortion and calm spirit. You can't. Distortion not only hides your aura, but also your scratch marks, which is what makes it kinda problematic in chases. If you use Floods and are chasing someone with distortion, once that unhook happens, they lose scratch marks for 10s. Calm spirit literally prevents your from screaming or disturbing crows (I actually have UW to thank for ruining Spies for me..) and nerfs your ability to do totems or chests, which actually is really broken if you use hex totems. Distortion has no downside and has use outside of just hiding auras.
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Information overload really. Ultimately, the killer can only chase 1 person. If you hear your teammates scream, it's probably best to get in range and get your 1 scream in quickly rather than scream after the killer has moved into your area later. They're more likely to remember your location if you scream by yourself later vs if they have 4 scream icons popping up all around them at once.
Screaming is also not the best type of information to begin with. Unless they have LOS of you once the black bubble goes away, you have time to walk away if you think the killer is going to check your area. If I'm on a map like Toba landing or something that is a LOS nightmare, I'm HOPING the UW scream spooks people into leaving scratch marks. If they hide in a bush nearby instead... there's a good chance I'm going to move on because I can't dedicate too much time opening all the lockers and such.
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Are people really in here arguing when the devs came out and said "We sold enough of the Alien chapter, and will now be nerfing this OP perk?"
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It's worth correcting you on something here, just briefly.
When people say that Ultimate Weapon is no different to other information perks, they're responding to a very specific complaint: The idea that the perk is uncounterable without a counter-pick perk on your end. That is where Ultimate Weapon is no different to almost any perk on your list; any perks on there you could even try and counter would require you to guess that the killer has them.
Info perks are typically uncounterable and you typically don't even get an indication they're revealing you. That complaint is just wrong, regardless of anything else about the perk.
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Lot of stuff here to read. But I dislike UW due to the amount of value for the activation. Just opening a locker, you usually get an idea of where you'll be going next. It gives you echo-location like info. All for opening a stupid locker. Just seems silly.
Also, the blindness only destroys Solo'q. So for all intents and purposes, since its clear all killers only worry about SWF, UW only brings the scream. Blindness does nothing to SWF.
The power of SWF is held over both how perks work and what killers are focused on. Anyone here worried about losing to a pub game as killer? Probably not.
TL:DR: UW is too easy to activate for its power burst of info.
Post edited by Spare_Them_Mori_Me on2 -
While true, it is definitely the hardest info perk to even attempt to counter, very near impossible, as you have to know not only that the killer opened a locker, but when it was originally opened and be able to time it. Then there's the fact that it's "down-time" (assuming you are the only person left and haven't been detected) is 30s before it's completely free to be used again. Just pop open another locker and boom. Once you factor all of that in, it's virtually impossible to counter. Save for Darkness Revealed (which is just stay away from lockers) all other perks have a distinct activation trigger that is able to be identified from the other side. I would also argue that it really is kind of obvious when someone has a survivor aura read perk because they (usually) immediately come over after the trigger has been activated, giving you solid info about that.
Pretty well all other perks you are able to anticipate and move to avoid it. Eg. someone's being hooked = go into locker, killer's coming to kick gen = go into locker or run away, near a killer chasing someone = run away, UW has none of that. There's zero info given to the other side that it's active, which gives it SO much power.
As much as I hate it, I hate it because of it's usefulness. It replaces so many perks and does SO much for so little. It makes endgame scenarios pointless. Though the activation duration is far too long. The fact you can completely cover the entire map with it, without using a high mobility killer, is insane. And the cooldown duration would have to be adjusted to compensate. The blindness is just.. Far too much. Too much for something that is pretty well unavoidable and already does so much.
Though, one thing I need to point out is that a MASSIVE reason why survivors feel it's so completely unfair is that BHVR has spent so much time tuning aura perks. Killers have SO many aura perks to choose from and survivors have about 3 different anti-aura perks (Distortion, Sole Survivor, OTR). There is precisely 1 anti-scream and it's garbage in comparison. OTR gives you endurance and Iron Will, Sole Survivor gives you repair and open speed buffs, Distortion hides your scratch marks. Calm Sprit makes you not scream or disturb crows and tanks your totem/chest speeds. Kinda... Eh, especially considering it's the ONLY perk you can use to prevent screaming
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Gen rush just like going against any other killer.
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That is not true, the hardest info perks to counter are the myriad of ones it is completely impossible to counter.
There is no counter to Lethal Pursuer, Floods of Rage, Bitter Murmur, I'm All Ears, Nemesis (assuming the killer has it in an Obsession-swapping build), or Territorial Imperative (lol) short of using an aura-block perk. Even if you know these are in play, there's no avoiding their activation, not really. Assuming you have to perform some of those actions (someone has to unhook for Floods, for example, and if someone's hooked in the basement someone has to go down there, etc), you will be revealed, and you cannot stop it.
There's also no meaningful counter to Eruption, since it's very hard to know when someone's about to go down - that's why it was changed to an aura read to begin with. The same is also true of THWACK, since you can't tell when the killer's about to break a pallet with enough time to actually leave the radius. You could make the argument this is true of Infectious Fright too, but it's a little easier to just book it away from a chase and have that not be throwing, so we'll give that one a pass for now.
Then there's the ones that are technically counterable if you know about them, but give no indication to you that they're in play. This includes Gearhead, and kinda-sorta Nowhere To Hide. The killer could make it obvious with NTH, but if they don't, you don't know it's in play. With Gearhead, you're just not gonna know.
I think a lot of people get too hung up on perks like BBQ, which do have clear activation on the survivor side and kiiiinda give the right tell they're in play. That perk can be countered, most aura/info perks cannot.
This is normal. Most info perks just work and you as a survivor counter them by making yourself hard to catch, not by denying the information to begin with. That's been perfectly reasonable for a long time now, Ultimate Weapon being "impossible to counter" puts it with the other info perks, not above them. There may be arguments to make about any other element of the perk, but that one isn't a problem. It's normal.
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You mention the aura perks having no counter/tell. While true, you also have to acknowledge that their window of activation is either very limited, or out of the killer’s control.
LP: Only active at the start of the match.
FoR: Requires a Scourge Hook, and is activated upon unhook, which you don’t control.
Bitter Murmur: Can only proc 5 times in a match. Also out of the killer’s control when exactly it triggers.
I’m All Ears: Is only going to proc in chase. Not sure why this one’s even brought up, this has a different purpose.
Nemesis: Same as ^. Even more limited, at that.
Eruption: Only triggers on downs.
Infectious: Same as ^.
Nowhere to Hide: Only procs around gens. As I said before, only does anything if the survivors weren’t already running.
Gearhead: Only works on survivors working on gens. Ie., limited to very specific areas.
UW is on demand, and has massive, moving range at that. It cannot be mistimed, because you control when its activation period begins. The only limit it has is that it has a cooldown.
It makes evasion straight impossible if you don’t want to run CS, because all the killer has to do is open a locker, and move. You cannot tell when you’re going to scream if you don’t have constant LoS on the killer, because it happens the instant you enter the TR’s range. It’s also not like you can outrun the TR.
That kind of strength has to have some kind of limit. Either through some different kind of activation method, a significantly higher cooldown, less range, or by having a tell of some kind.
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Sure, but that's a different argument.
It being uncounterable is a nothing complaint because that's the norm. It having too broad of an activation window is a completely different complaint and one that definitely has a lot more legs, there's an actual discussion there.
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Oh, i misinterpreted your point then. My bad.
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Happens to the best of us, no worries lol
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Not everything needs counterplay, especially in a 1v4. By definition the 1 should be stronger than each individual 4.
Now, to put it this way, what about the perk is too strong for you? How is it any better than running lethal + bbq or any other aura reading? which is far far more reliable?
You have to spend time opening a locker, something most killers don't want to do, then you make the survivors scream when they enter your terror radius for the next 30 seconds. But what does a scream get you? It tells you their rough location, but you get their location when you are 32 meters away from them assuming average terror radius. So, survivors walk at a speed of 2.26 m/s, average killer is 4.6 m/s. That means, even if the killer could make a beeline straight line directly to the survivor, it will take them 7 seconds to move 32 meters. During that time the survivor can move almost 16 meters. HALF A TERROR RADIUS.
And even then, the information is only useful for a few seconds, BECAUSE it is a scream and not aura reading. Generally it gives you a rough idea of where survivors are, but you aren't going to be chasing multiple survivors, you are picking one.
Then lastly, the cooldown on it is very long. People think "oh it has a 30 second cooldown" which is not completely correct. You use it, then it lasts for 30 seconds, then AFTER that it has a 30 second cooldown. This means that it has a full minute between uses.
Put it another way, ultimate weapon is literally just part of the doctor's power. It is just a worse static blast in a perk without the madness. Is doctor suddenly a massively overpowered killer? There are far far better perks and combinations of perks that give much BETTER information than ultimate weapon.
I said it then
I'll say it now
I'll say it in the future when they inevitably nerf this perk due to crying about it
Ultimate weapon is not a good perk.
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Oh, if it’s not a big enough deal to be worth giving up a perk slot then I guess it’s not actually a big problem.
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Any average killer will defend UW till the heat death of the universe and deflect to complaining about genrushing. If I remember correctly, Deja Vu was the topic of the day because the yellow bar gave too much dopamine. Meanwhile, UW completely clowns on other info perks unless you use the funny counter pick that was nerfed with a debuff. Not to mention synergy with DMS.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
distortion
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Honestly love not setting off crows with calm spirit. It does help. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve lost track of a survivor but a crow flying off alone gave them away, or just using it and being able to lose the killer with iron will, calm spirit combo. It’s nutty sometimes the advantage it has against some killers. Niche sure, but helpful in a good amount of situations(not all) yeah. Love some distortion, iron will, calm spirit, for stealth builds. Some survivors hate anything that isn’t meta altruism, and think it’s crap. Calm spirit also counters doctor in general, clown bottles(been hit with those while hiding near a gen and they didn’t check bc no scream), uw, and spies from the shadow.
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not always but sometimes distortion user here, they use aura perks a lot with no tell that just straight eat through tokens, then there’s killers with base kit aura powers, and when they use it with aura add-ons(some addons for killers have that) you’re also probably not aware of. Altruism builds aren’t the save all grace for all situations you think they are. Try some other stuff other than that useless decisive strike and 20yr heal self care. Thnx bye.
- sincerely a survivor main to whatever other survivor is reading this.
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I'm talking about without having picked a perk ahead of time, I acknowledged in that post that aura-block perks are the only counter to those killer perks.
Obviously Distortion counters those perks and Calm Spirit counters Ultimate Weapon, but without that counter-pick perk, there's no counterplay to a lot of info perks. That's the norm.
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