Killers won't tunnel / camp if they were power role

Both sides love to win and there are some ways to make winning easier. You are definitely right, that buffs alone will not make the problem disappear. But I fear that as long as there are cases in which tunneling is simply the only option to compete (rare but they do exist) even a 10 seconds DS wouldn't fix the issue. After all, there is no greater advantage than to eliminate 1 survivor.

I'll say something that is a bit controversial here: If DS left the killer stunned for 20 seconds, then tunneling would become the go to strategy for absolutely everyone. Because survivors would force it on the killer (pre 6.1.0 style) and put them at a significant disadvantage that they could only balance out by doubling down and eliminating that survivor. This is of course very exaggerated but you get the point.

This is why I think it needs both incentives not to tunnel and penalties for tunneling. If tunneling became less efficient and spreading hooks became more efficient at the same time, then killers would have a good reason to avoid tunneling.

Disagree, tunneling and camping have been in the game for 7 years, they have always been tweaked but never been outright removed because they are part of the game. Simply removing them would require too many changes that you are making a new game at that point and likely after that the question becomes ok with that gone whats the next version of it based on the changes the devs make that you want gone.

Lets say you can't hook the same survivor twice in a row. Physically impossible to take a survivor out of the game before 5 hooks how much safer is it for that new unhooked person to just sit on a gen and ignore any kind of healing until someone else gets hooked and how much more progress does their team get off not having to care about taking hits just immediate stealth because they would be fine and unbreakable stocks soar or heck just give them free unbreakable while they are slugged like that since they are supposed to be invincible and just in case slugging becomes the problem here throw endurance on that too.

Lets say you can't camp at all if you are within 32m of a survivor on the hook both survivors get bt and their hook doesn't progress and you build up a free escape and for good measure kindred aura reading that bypasses undetectable so everyone knows thats happening, in fact lets sweaten the pot, injured survivors get bt for being within 16m of the hook and no deep wound on the first bt hit so a freshly unhooked survivor takes 3 hits to down depending on perks which doesn't mean much when they can't be hooked and an injured unhooker gets a bt hit going to save and a bt hit after the save. How much more time does their team get not having to care about rescues being dangerous and having great knowledge on going for saves

How would you balance all of it out, realistically with a mountain of changes to make all killers strong enough to get at least 5 hooks at a decent pace so they can start snowballing in a match at some point (because otherwise they can't counter survivor pressure and just lose) they need to have enough information without perks that they don't need to ever go back to hooks again, and the mobility on each killer reach chases without huge amounts of downtime. Maybe even longer gen times or even more changes to prevent. And probably huge buffs to most killers. The problem is the fact that its just a mountain of changes to overcome just to remove 2 mechanics that are intended and at the end of the day you don't even know if you are making a better product to remove 2 things you don't like.

Well, we did have that with BBQ and DS. To an extent, it works.

It doesn't delete tunneling from the game, I think nothing ever will, but back then tunneling wasn't the norm. And that is huge.

"we shouldn't remove them" also we should nerf them into the ground and make them unviable aka all but remove them just say the change you actually want instead of dancing around it then making it anyway

Killers still need buffs over time since generally they get weaker the longer they are out and as general skill increases depending on how much of the game that killer has to interact with, they just need to get stronger as people get smarter, not just the scum at the bottom of the barrel which people still won't play because theres no point in buffing it to go no where but the median needs to raise over time. Using tunneling and camping as examples of why almost no killers should get buffs is using one aspect of the game to say a more important aspect shouldn't get changed which is just wrong.

Yeah but bringing back the BBQ stacks wouldn't really do much, would it? As nice as the extra BP are, they aren't worth as much as they were back then. The grind was reduced significantly, so it's way more achievable to unlock all perks on all characters. On the other hand, BBQ doesn't really stop you from tunneling either. You can still get stacks even after the first survivor died.

DS definitely should be stronger but there needs to be something besides BP as a reward for the killer not to tunnel. Most people care more about the win than the BP and that's where it becomes to fix the issue. You could try to reward the killer with a bit of information or slowdown, so that they benefit from spreading hooks. However, this would become almost impossible to balance.

If we need another 6.1.0 we will get another 6.1.0 there was tunneling then and there is tunneling now, it wouldn't be any different since its changes for the sake of progress not gridlock because you don't like one current aspect.

I think it would work, actually. Double BPs is a far too generous offer to pass up, regardless of the changes made to the grind. Besides, it would help those who want to go for their P100 journeys.

And DS cannot be replaced, it needs to be here.

Part of why tunneling wasn't the norm back then also has to do with self-care helping to prevent gens from going too fast, and also because of the lack of conspicuous actions. Someone with DS could repair a gen, heal someone, or unhook. When you think about it, there's a lot of factors that kept tunneling down.

4s is probably enough, since 5s ds was made for enduring (which made it 4s) and chewed through the 3s stun better than today

its not it would just be funny if they made it like that based on fumbling the stbfl changes, 4s stun is fine though

Lol I get you, 4s would definitely be a welcome change, but I still do think that it should be 5 especially with how many mobility and ranged killers there are now. Any change to DS would be an improvement though. The game needs a hard anti-tunnel perk back in prevalence right now.

A perk to counter tunneling really won't accomplish anything. But if we have to buff the perk a duration increase won't do anything either.

If anything the buff it needs is 4 seconds + removal of conspicuous action modifier but make conspicuous actions a lot slower while the perk is active and reduce duration to like 20 seconds.

Now the perk won't be free gen progress like it was pre-nerfs but now it also won't force you to do nothing for the entire timer and will have value regardless if you get tunneled or not.

I honestly completely disagree with your points.

• Buffing the duration will absolutely do something. 3 seconds of stun which in reality is only 1.7 seconds due to the time it takes to get off the shoulder is absolutely meaningless, and unless you're right next to a pallet or window when you went down, a complete waste of a perk slot with no meaningful distance to be made. Buffing the duration of the stun to at the very least 4 seconds (I think it should be 5) would allow you to at the very least make it to the next closest loop.
• The removal of the conspicuous action modifier makes no sense. DS is an anti-tunnel perk. If you have the time to stop and do generators or heal somebody else, you're not being tunneled (a vast majority of the time at the very least).
• Removing the conspicuous action modifier takes away a component of DS that gives survivors autonomy over how to use it and use their time. If you want to hold it for the full 60 seconds to try to get value or are scared of going down again quickly, either get healed by a teammate or position yourself in a strong spot to give yourself a better chance. If you feel safe, then hop on a gen or heal somebody else, etc. There's no need to remove something that promotes strategic decision making.

Edit: Wanted to throw in that DS was 100% a viable deterrent to tunneling in it's previous states. It was a perk that was feared by many killers and many people just decided to go after somebody else rather than risk getting DS'd and wasting 30 seconds of their time.

It was feared because it was overpowered.

Buffing it to four seconds won't make it feared again and it's too restrictive to see common use.

It suffers the same problem that OTR suffers in that you only get organic use 10% of the time and the other 90% of the time you have to make stupid plays to try and force value. Perks should not be this conditional and that's why Dead Hard will continue to be a superior anti-tunnel perk than both of them.

Perks should give the player agency.

I think that would be a very fair trade off, good idea.

of course it doesn't, many people just care to win. I'm a Warhammer player and you'd be surprised that meta chasers found a way to regrow the kidneys they sold so they can spend hundreds on the next army every edition over and over again. They often end up with a faction and playstyle they literally do not even like, and getting an army that has a high comp winrate is a pain in the ass for those who actually like them cause getting the required minis will be a hassle by itself, out of stock, getting scalped.

If people go so far as to do spend their time and money doing things they do not even like to win, then you can't really tell me that tunneling can be dissuaded unless you make it objectively one of the worst ways to play.

Killers tunnel because it is the best way to win. Even if you nerf tunneling, it will still be prominent if it continues to be the best way to win. SBMM made the game more sweaty, and players are going for wins rather than having fun like back in the day.

This is also why buffing DS is such a bad idea. It causes its own problems and if it doesn't make tunneling worse than the alternatives then killers will still be doing it.

When you say getting value out of OTR do you mean not getting tunneled or do you mean forcing the killer to hit you to eat up a health state that would be lost anyways? Min/Maxing endurance status to force the killer to waste n seconds on wipe animations over a game is not the intent of the value of OTR/other endurance perks I'd argue .

I feel no matter what incentives or penalties are presented to Killers, tunnelling will always be there.

The only way to remove it entirely is by making it impossible. Remove collision until either another Survivor is downed, the Survivor in question performs a conspicuous action, the Survivor in question presses an active button so they lose the non-collision (so they can choose where to get healed, instead of an over-eager fellow Survivor insisted on healing there and then, or once the Exit Gates are powered.

Even then, this will probably not be right and will have detractors. However, this is the only way tunnelling will end. Anything else will not stop players who want to do so.

I didn't play during the majority of the gen kick meta days so I can only say from what I saw and gens were definitely still going pretty fast. Obviously against soloq it was a problem but soloq has survivors who struggle against freddy.

Lights out I'm kinda iffy on cause while it definitely was easier for killer, my god was it annoying to find the survivors sometimes. It took so long to find someone sometimes and I felt I was better off sitting near the hook. I don't really see why people would tunnel though given that they can just sit near the hook and go after the rescuer unless they weren't close enough. I'm also gonna assume that some killers aren't really good and can't tell how many gens are left so they could feel pressured to get someone out quick.

While I say all this, I agree that killer being the power role is definitely not a great idea and obviously neither side should be the power role. I think for camping they can fix it by simply making it so it takes longer to sacrifice the closer the killer is to the hook. While for tunneling I don't really know how to fix it but I'm fairly confident that punishing the killer for tunneling is gonna be worse then rewarding them not to tunnel.

Some killers already throw games to tunnel someone out, so this won't change anything for them. It would change the people who tunnel more so out of necessity cause some killers like Freddy suck so all that would accomplish is just reduce the amount of killers.