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The game should communicate that a 3k = a win
A lot of people hold the opinion that the killer only wins on a 4k, despite the fact the killer's MMR goes up if they kill at least 3 survivors.
I've always been of the opinion that if you absolutely must regard this game in binary terms of wins and losses, regarding a 3k as a win is a healthier mindset than only thinking 4ks are a win. It's less stressful for the killer and less annoying for the survivors, who have to put up with killers slugging for the 4k and otherwise trying to circumvent the hatch mechanic.
I just think it's an unhealthy mindset that makes the game less pleasant for both sides.
With that in mind, I would suggest the following:
Remove the Cypress Memento Mori offering, make it basekit.
When the 3rd survivor has died on hook, give a message to the killer, something like "The Entity is sated. The last one is yours." to more correctly communicate that the 4th kill is bonus points for the killer, and reward them with getting to use their mori *if they choose.*
Allowing the killer the choice is important. Don't force them to initiate the mori. Let them end the match how they want, which could include just hooking or allowing the survivor to escape.
Edit: I want to clarify that I'm not talking about this in some hopes that killers who are *personally unsatisfied* with anything short of a 4k will get over it, I'm saying that some people *straight up think anything short of a 4k is a loss*. I'm hoping that if the game indicates they've won by the time the 3rd survivor is dead, these people will calm down. I also think it's useful knowledge for new players to be told, since the MMR is invisible.
Comments
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Issue is, you have challenges and achievements (adepts) that require you to 4k.
When the 3rd survivor has died on hook, give a message to the killer, something like "The Entity is sated. The last one is yours." to more correctly communicate that the 4th kill is bonus points for the killer, and reward them with getting to use their mori *if they choose.*
I kinda like that idea tho, basically give options "Mercy", or "Execution". I wouldn't need to look for hatch...
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I wasn't suggesting that they remove the concept of a 4k from the game, just do something to combat the mindset that only a 4k is a win for the killer and anything short of that is a killer loss.
I see that mindset around a lot and those people have to be making both themselves and the survivors they play against miserable.
So any challenge that requires you to 4k wouldn't be effected. I just want the game to communicate what the internal invisible MMR already calculates. You killed 3/4 survivors, you won the match, the 4th is bonus points.
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i agreed with you until you added the mori basekit thing. i do think 3ks should be incentivized as healthy more, but i really hate the mori mechanic. i'd rather if i already lost, people just hook me rather than do the "funie animation xd" it just feels so unnecessary. i feel mori system should only stay for those "kill a survivor" tome/dailies and nothing more. don't want to go against mori's any more than that. i know you're not suggesting mori-ing be mandatory, but i can't in my right mind back something that'll get me mori-ed more often. i'm sure there's other ways to communicate 3k is good enough...
and yeah, i know it's petty of me to not like getting mori-ed and i know i am, it's not that big of a deal but i got a bone to pick with people who do it. i just associate mori's with the most tunnel heavy playstyle imaginable and they're not really fun for me to see anymore. like, i don't get those funny ghostfaces in my lobby who just tbag / crouch constantly and meme and do the funny selfie mori with you, i (pretty much all the time) get those uber goobers who just want to make the game miserable for one guy because they brought the funny offering. i think the mori system should be not incentivized imho based off my personal experience, but ik my personal experience doesn't affect what other people's matches are lol, this is just me ranting about this damn cursed system that brings out the worst in some people for some reason
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A killer trying to get a 4k is fine, because everyone seems ok with survivors trying to get a 0k.
If all the generators have been repaired, 3 survivors could easily escape out of a gate, and a killer hooks a 4th survivor, then the 3 survivors could easily just leave and take the 1k. But they often try to save the 4th person, even though a 1k is a loss for the killer.
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I don't view this as a problem. Survivors playing needlessly altruistic leads to a more engaging game. It opens them up to misplaying and getting even more of themselves killed when they could have cut their losses and left. I have turned many losing games into 2ks or even 3ks because of what you're describing here. If you are unsatisfied with only killing 1 survivor, you should want their allies to get greedy and come try to rescue the one you have on the hook.
There are few situations in which there are 2 survivors left and the killer is letting one of them bleed out to circumvent the hatch mechanic that actually makes the game more fun. Getting bled out like that is frustrating, the game doesn't reward killers as highly for survivors who bled to death compared to having died in a different way, and the final survivor is now in a position where they either need to be selfish and hide for 2 minutes, or effectively just let themselves die so everyone can move on.
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Actually if you 3k your MMR goes up 3 times and down one time ☝️🤓
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It doesn't matter. There are killer players that will still commit to 4ks regardless of the game telling them they already won with a 3k. It's a mentality from players the devs can never change
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Obviously you can never fully get rid of people who are personally unsatisfied with anything short of a 4k. But you can combat the mindset that a 3k is a killer loss.
What inspired me to make this is not only that I see people arguing this a lot, but I recently saw someone saying that hatch is a survivor win. For the entire survivor team. So the killer killed all 3 players and then one survivor got hatch, so the killer loses. And they're saying this in a way to say that survivors are actually OP because if one escapes the killer loses.
That is a crazy take to me but it's a sentiment I see often. If the game were just to clearly communicate that a 3k is not a killer loss, it would go a long way to making those kinds of people calm down.
Plus I just think the idea of the Cypress Mori being basekit is neato.
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There is meaningful risk in getting a 0k, there is not meaningful risk in turning a guaranteed 3k into a 4k. (See CoconutRTS' Bloodwarden compilation) Survivors can lose more than they would stand to gain. Killers can only stand to gain by wasting everyone else's time.
Most 'slug for 4ks' involve 2 already dead, and the third being forced to wait 4 minutes because the Killer has an achievement or an ego trip they 'need' the 4k for. Survivors going for the 0k allows all 5 participants of the game to still play, and both sides can gain or lose more from where they started. Killers going for the 4k most often only has 2 participants of the game still playing, and 1-3 players are 'held hostage' until the match ends. (The 2 dead Survivors may be forced to wait for the match to end to see the Killer perks and add-ons, or wait for their friends to die/escape. The first could be solved by revealing perks/add-ons when you queue up as a solo once you die, or when all members of your SWF are dead in duo/trio queue.)
If you are saying Survivors should be able to contribute to matches while dead. Survivors can be revived through some secret ritual once the gens are completed so that way the game always has 5 players active. Killers could actually stand to lose more than they stand to gain, then all of that sounds interesting and I would agree with you and Killer should be able to go for the 4k and Survivors go for the 0k since both sides can always risk everything for a better or worse result.
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This is a game that gives you absolutely nothing for winning. It doesn't even track your number of escapes, kills or trial performance in any official capacity. Only the grading system exists to track performance and most players agree that's little more than a measure of time spent playing per month.
And yet somehow players have still managed to turn the game into a total sweat fest anyway. No, I don't think communicating that 3K = a win is going to make a tiny bit of difference to the Killers that want to 4K in every single game.
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I'm going to edit my OP since people don't seem understand what I'm trying to say, and looking over it I don't think I communicated it well.
I'm not saying that killers who only care about 4ks will stop caring about 4ks.
What I'm saying is that there is a not-insignificant number of players who seem to believe that anything short of a 4k is a killer loss. They don't understand that the game itself considers them to have won at 3 kills.
It's not a matter of being frustrated because they didn't get the most optimal result, they think they straight up lose the game because one survivor gets the hatch or whatever.
I've debated with these people across many platforms, I've had survivors mock me for losing the game because one person got out, I've had killers who slugged me to death say that they had to do it or they might lose. The subject came up again now that BHVR has released their stats, I've seen people saying that the kill rates mean nothing because they're not 4ks and thus not wins.
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I don't believe it's worth correcting individuals who may engage in bullying behavior regardless. It's often more constructive to focus on positive and respectful interactions rather than trying to change the behavior of those who may not be receptive to correction.
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Except MMR is a hidden background score.
You can TELL people whatever you like, but when the only real determiner of a win is how the player feels at the end, it's up to them. If they feel like it's not a win as long as someone gets out, that's for them to decide.
If we had anything in the game that actually mattered for 'winning' or 'losing,' it would be a different story.
Personally, I'm happy as long as I get solid bloodpoints, and more kills = more points.
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Fair enough. Maybe you're right and by establishing an official win condition it would stop players coming up with their own personal one. But to be honest, plenty of Killers don't think the hatch mechanic should even exist (even though most regard a Survivor finding hatch first to be just luck and not a win). So I think these players would still consider a single Survivor escaping through hatch as a loss regardless of what BHVR might say about it. The Devs seem wary about being specific and establishing an official win condition or anything similar because I think they want players to play relatively casually overall. Hence our hidden SBMMR and the lack of any performance tracking or competitive modes.
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I feel winning is subjective. If I accomplished my goal going in, I've won in my mind.
I really don't care what the developers say, as they also said that hug tech thing is a bug, and it's been around forever. Leaving bugs in a game is just odd to me, and if that's not taken seriously then I don't take that stuff said seriously either.
It's like working out, set goals and meet them, if you do, and you're happy, you'll enjoy it a lot more.
And yeah, almost all the killers I see lately play like their life is on the line. If they don't get their 4 kills then their ego and self esteem tank ever further than it is.
The ones that get 4 kills but don't have to engage in tunneling, proxy camping etc and play in a different way, those killers are cool. Especially when they scare me lol.
Meh I just can't bring myself to take a game that seriously...
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Wow, there are so many double standards in this game. If we should remind killers that a 3k is a killer win, then we should also remind survivors that a 1k is a win for survivors.
It’s called treating both sides equally, instead of (once again) shaming killers for a certain behavior, and then saying it’s fine for survivors do their equivalent behavior.
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It's not about shaming killers, it's the total opposite of that, I'm asking the game to tell them they did a good job after 3 kills and the 4th one is bonus points. That's all I'm suggesting.
If a killer decides those bonus points are important to them and they're unsatisfied with anything less, that's fine, that's their decision and preference. But people shouldn't be under the impression they lost the game just because one survivor escapes.
I realize now that a better title for this thread should have been "The game should communicate that a 3k = NOT a loss" - I kinda got the random whim to make this suggestion after encountering someone trying to tell me that the game is survivor-sided because one survivor getting the hatch is a killer loss.
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Than the game should also tell survivors they did a good job when they get a 1k. That's all I'm suggesting.
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It does do that.
Survivors have 3 states. Escaped, Sacrificed (if killed by a hook), Dead (if not killed by a hook). It doesn't care about what state your allies left the match in, only whether you survived or not.
Killer is unique in that they have a total victory condition called Merciless Killer if they kill all 4 survivors. Survivors do not have that for if all 4 survivors escape.
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I really like ur idea and love the mori too as a devour hope enjoyer
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