Are you saying the tunnel is too strong without using OTR, DS & Dead Hard?
From the latest statistics on park usage.
In the matches I attend as both a survivor and a killer, it is not at all uncommon to see multiple people using OTR. The community manager also stated that the perk has to be equipped to be effective, right?
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Endurance perks like OTR and DH are hard countered by getting hit immediately off hook. If the killer is tunneling, they're almost always going back to hook (or just staying at exactly 12m).
DS is about as effective as politely asking the killer not to tunnel in end game chat. DS isn't anti tunnel when it also stuns the survivor for 1.4 of the 3 second duration. So a survivor gets 1.6s of head start, or 6.4m. A killer lunge attack is 6m, and that assumes their power doesn't just instantly down the survivor again.
DS is only used to reset exhaustion in its current state. Maybe if they actually buffed the stun duration back to 5s it could be anti tunnel again.
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I wonder why people are not combining it since one of the strong points of DS is the ability to use Dead Hard again. I wonder as much as the players who bring self-care by itself without Botani.
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Because perks that are dependent on the Killer's ping are bad.
Not only do you need skill to know the timing.
Not only do you need to make a read.
Not only do you need to be positioned correctly in a loop.
You also need the Killer to have good ping.
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Because those perks are bad. While there are stronger option.
BU and FTP, and killers dont like that. Because those perks work
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Because people don't want to use multiple anti-tunnel perks incase if killer tunnel them. People want to be free with whatever perks they want to use.
If DS was strong enough, people would use it and you would use other slots for whatever perks you want. And even if you don't bring DS, strong DS would scare killers like old times. Many times i jumped into locker and killer just eat bait and left for gens. Why? 5 seconds stun would give me good distance to strong loop and while i am doing that, gens will fly.
We need DS back.
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While I agree we need DS back, I don't think we should have the exact old DS.
I'll even be more controversial and say we should get a basekit DS so we don't need to have so many anti-tunnel perks. The question is how to execute it without making it a weapon like old DS was to bully squads.
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Disable if healed.
If injured survivor with DS body block. Thats 1 survivors on the ground not doing anything and another one have to go for pick up.
only 1 survivor on Gen is killers’ advantage.
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Disable if healed.
*FTPs you to disable your anti-tunnel*
No, being healed should not disable anti-tunnel perks. DS is fine overall, since trying to bodyblock with it will get you slugged out, giving the killer a ton of free pressure and slowdown.
OTR is a bigger problem in that regard, and should be reworked to no longer give Endurance, and instead produce a complete information black-out until conspic action: No grunts of pain, no footsteps, no blood pools, no aura reading, no screams, no killer instinct, and no scratch marks.
I think that in such a scenario, OTR might be the stronger anti-tunnel overall, and completely useless for anything other than preventing tunnelling.
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I think the best solution would be to introduce another type of health state, that takes place of the endurance phase of 10 seconds after getting unhooked. Something that prevents collision. So people stop using the inbuild BT to body block the killer.
Oh and increase the stun timer of DS.
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If FTP to healthy, yes. Most of the time you FTP on dying teammate into injured to get use of BU, which is not disable DS. I mean DS disable if you're healthy.
OTR would be powerful if Endurance could stack with basekit BT, but its not. Though it should.
Some survivors can weaponize OTR and DS by body blocking while being healthy to take 3-4 hits. Disable if healthy and losing collision are needed.
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But if I'm healthy and I pull a tunnel target off the hook, I may want to use FTP to improve their chances against a tunnelling killer. They shouldn't be punished by having their conditional perks disabled in the condition for which they are intended.
Some survivors can weaponize OTR and DS by body blocking while being healthy to take 3-4 hits. Disable if healthy and losing collision are needed.
I don't think this is as big a deal though, since them getting healthy requires time/resource investment from the survivors to begin with, so then a bodyblock becomes free pressure/slowdown. And if they go down, and you leave them slugged, that's huge pressure/slowdown. That's why I think DS was just so much healthier for the game, as it required another, single-use perk in order to overcome the counterplay to its offensive use, and even then it would waste a ton of time. OTR is much easier to use offensively, comparatively.
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And if they have unbreakable? The survivors benefited more from that interaction cause there still is 2 other survivors on gens.
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Make it strong but disable it if survivor is healed. Also they can rework OtR too, this perk is serving to nothing. DS should be anti-tunnel perk and it served pretty well.
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As opposed to three survivors on gens. Gens going slower is not a benefit to survivors.
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You have to expect killer not to be smart when using ds with dh. I always expect dead hard if I get hit by ds and maybe few times out I have been dumb and hit the survivor immediatelly and they actually got value from dh.
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The problem is twofold.
One, it'd be bad if tunnelling were too strong except for if you run very specific perks. That'd be a repeat of what we had prior to 6.1.0, where survivors either sacrificed half their perk slots just to counter basekit tactics on the killer side, or suffer having no counter to those basekit tactics. That, on its face, is an imbalance.
Two, the anti-tunnel perks we have are unfortunately not that good, and have anti-synergy with each other. OTR is actually quite good at delaying the down... if the killer doesn't immediately hit you, at which point OTR is doing basically nothing. DS is too weak to be used at all outside of resetting Endurance and Exhaustion, and every other anti-tunnel perk is altruistic, so you have to rely on your teammates bringing them.
(They're also not that great, either, but they are better. Borrowed Time increases your speed boost duration even if you're hit straight away, as does Babysitter alongside making you a little stealthier.)
I'm also not sure why Dead Hard is in your title, if we're stooping to using general Exhaustion perks as anti-tunnel I think you'd get more out of either Sprint Burst or Lithe. Dead Hard works, though, it's not a bad pick especially if DS resets your health state for Endurance.
The bottom line is, anti-tunnel is both not in a very good spot and shouldn't be something you have to rely on perks for anyway. There are ways to fix this without being too punishing to killers, though, it's not all doom and gloom.
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This has been claimed time and time again, yet so many survivors managed to turn the 6.1 DH into an absolute menace that made playing killer again feel like a chore. It was BETTER then old DH for sure, but only because I eventually learned to predict and mindgame it, but that didn't counter the untold lose/lose situations that this "ping dependant" perk put me in at pallets.
God, how I hated that DH had zero "pallet drop cooldown" afterwards, there were loads and loads and again LOADS of times, were I correctly predicted the DH at a pallet and held my swing, yet was still hit in the head with the pallet afterwards, because I was 2 frames too slow.
And DH can still do all of this today, its just not as obiquitous anymore and severely limited in uptime, which is why so many survivor ditched it. I still die a bit inside every time I am hit by DH,though, but I guess thats just ptsd of the olden times.
On a sidenote: I find it very telling, that not a single of the anti-tunneling perks is in the top 10, even though tunneling has been the TOP complaint of the survivor player base. So it still seems to be a tough call for many to put their survival above the need to "stick it to the killer" and that they value offense more then defense. Thats a choice in itself, and while I think that doing something against tunneling would help the game a lot to become more fun, its still a choice that many make themselves: stay meta slaves instead of losing one of their valued meta perks for survivabilty.
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It was also a real Exhaustion perk, not a situational perk used maybe twice per match.
It's a terrible perk right now.
Post edited by Pulsar on6 -
I believe @Akumakaji meant better as in "better to play against", not "stronger".
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Thank you, edited it.
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You do you bro, but for real, just like GeneralV said it, just literal the next 5 words explained that I didn't mean it like you took it. Whatever, happy gaming :)
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Only saw it now. ^_-
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We have both been fooled
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Removing a large amount of pressure and potential slowdown fort the killer is though.
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How are you removing a large amount of pressure and slowdown by giving the killer a free down?
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I mean the fact that they can get back up with unbreakable in around 15 seconds, making it so that 1 of the other 2 survivors that are on generators DON"T have to go pick them up, making it so that there is at least 15 extra seconds of gen times for both survivors also assuming that they don't have a perk/item to make the gen go faster.
This isn't even including the fact that the downed survivor can get up and heal making it so that their next chase takes longer, do a gen, or if the killer comes back that they could have DS and (potentially) an exhaustion perk which makes that entire time they left to chase that other survivor pretty pointless unless they also got downed or at the very least lose a health state.
That's a lot of slowdown lost and chases could be longer because they healed.
Basically the killer got almost nothing, the survivors got something.
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We also don't see Bloodhound and Poised on the list. If the Perks are nearly useless, they aren't going to be picked. If I am having trouble being tracked as Survivor, or tracking as Killer, Bloodhound and Poised are still so bad that they aren't going to help me (for the most part). The same problem is the case with OTR/DS. The value of DS is near nothing, and the value of OTR is negated by hitting the person off hook (killing OTR and basekit BT in 1 shot).
If Bloodhound revealed the auras of Survivors standing in pools of blood, and Poised gave an Iron Will+No Scratchmarks+No Auras+No Bleeding effect to you and every ally who popped the gen, then maybe they would be useful. If DS stunned a reasonable duration (or gave the DS Survivor invisibility+Iron Will+No Scratch Marks+No Bleeding for 15s) it would be useful. If all forms of anti-tunnel Endurance didn't give Deep Wound, OTR would be useful. That sadly isn't the case, so we have useless perks going unpicked (or picked less compared to useful perks) because they are useless.
There also is the problem that DS is essentially a money only perk (Halloween DLC), and OTR/Poised are Iri shards or money perks (Zarina and Jane are Iri Shard purchasable). I think those reasons are somewhat less relevant though, as seen by Bloodhound's lack of use as a free perk.
DH is a ping check, and since too many of my matches involve Killers VPNing for a 'lagvantage', I don't bother using it. Your mileage may vary, but I can't trust it with how often I am 'exhausted on the ground'. (If you start the DH animation and gain the Endurance status effect on your screen, you can still get hit through the Endurance with a sufficiently laggy Killer, but they usually 'refund' your Exhaustion when that happens now.)
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The set of tunnel perks aren't that impactful alone and feeling forced to use 2+ perks just to give yourself some defense against a killer who decided to give you a 2 minute match just feels awful
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I use OTR and I hardly get hard tunneled.
People forget that OTR also hides your aura and stops grunts of pains making it harder to track said Survivor especially on maps with LOS blockers
OTR also acts as a deterrent to Killers who try to wait out the default BT and get punished by it.
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Do those who say that there is a tunnel countermeasure park but it is not effective or meaningful want protection in the base kit system? Or do they want OTR and DS to be strengthened?
When I play Survivor and these perks are useless, I don't understand the concept of them being useless to me because it is a match that I can afford to work on Gen unless I am very fast down paced.
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I saw this post pop up, then it got deleted, apparently it got reinstated and I wasn't pinged. Anyway...
I mean the fact that they can get back up with unbreakable in around 15 seconds, making it so that 1 of the other 2 survivors that are on generators DON"T have to go pick them up, making it so that there is at least 15 extra seconds of gen times for both survivors also assuming that they don't have a perk/item to make the gen go faster.
The issue with this is that you're complaining about Unbreakable's existence altogether. Survivors have perks, and they should be allowed to use them. And should the situation arise in which the perk is meant to be used, it should be allowed to provide value. Survivor perks aren't supposed to be net-nothings.
This isn't even including the fact that the downed survivor can get up and heal making it so that their next chase takes longer, do a gen, or if the killer comes back that they could have DS and (potentially) an exhaustion perk which makes that entire time they left to chase that other survivor pretty pointless unless they also got downed or at the very least lose a health state.
The critical distinction, though, is that all of this applies -more- to what happens if said survivor never went down in the first place. What you are describing is entirely identical to what happens under normal circumstances, except the survivor has spent 15 seconds incapacitated, and a single-use perk. Whatever time the survivor won by giving this free down -must- be more than what the team lost by this survivor being downed, plus the additional time lost by not contributing to the team to maintain DS. And I don't see that happening.
Basically the killer got almost nothing, the survivors got something.
The killer got a survivor incapacitated for, at minimum, 15 seconds and permanently disabled a survivor perk, at no effort. I'd call that 'something'.
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So I don't know how to quote sections of a comment like you did so please excuse how messy this comment is.
I'm not saying that survivors can't use their perks, that would be dumb. I am saying that survivors can get up with unbreakable removing a lot of potential slowdown and pressure. I'd also like to say that the original point that I made is that you can pair unbreakable with DS forcing the killer to eat the DS or let the survivor get away which is a much more beneficial interaction for survivors then the killer. This was a thing back then and it became significantly weaker since but it is still very much a possible thing to happen. I'm not saying that unbreakable by itself is too strong.
So for the second part of your comment I'm not really understanding what your saying. From my interpretation your saying that the survivor was gonna get up either via unbreakable or teammate and that the survivors gained less from the survivor getting up via unbreakable as opposed to a teammate. After that yours saying that you don't see the idea of that the survivors benifited more from a survivor getting up from unbreakable. I'm not really understanding what you mean by contributing to the team to maintain DS. If this is the case then I think it can depend on the case but most of the time it does give more for the survivors then not. It's a lot more time waste for the killer then not and there still is 2 other survivors working on gens. This comment was a bit confusing for me so please tell me if I got something wrong.
For the last comment I didn't say the killer got nothing I said almost nothing. They obviously slowed down the gen speeds a little bit but it's not a enough to say it was a good situation for them.
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So I don't know how to quote sections of a comment like you did so please excuse how messy this comment is.
It's done by using the 'greater than' symbol. At least on my browser, I know it doesn't work on the mobile version of the forums.
I'm not saying that survivors can't use their perks, that would be dumb. I am saying that survivors can get up with unbreakable removing a lot of potential slowdown and pressure. I'd also like to say that the original point that I made is that you can pair unbreakable with DS forcing the killer to eat the DS or let the survivor get away which is a much more beneficial interaction for survivors then the killer. This was a thing back then and it became significantly weaker since but it is still very much a possible thing to happen. I'm not saying that unbreakable by itself is too strong.
Alright, so let's clarify things for the sake of the discussion:
We're talking about a scenario in which the killer isn't chasing a survivor that has DS on, but downs a survivor with DS, correct?
Mostly this is referred to via the scenario of bodyblocking, where the DS user blocks the killer's path while the killer is chasing another survivor.
My point now is that I think you're wrong in your assessment that this interaction favours the survivors, and I think this gets messy because the wrong situations are being compared. You mention that if the survivor gets downed, the killer has to either eat the DS or let unbreakable get them up.
which is a much more beneficial interaction for survivors then the killer.
And this is where I think it goes wrong. Yes, if Unbreakable is in the picture, this scenario is better for survivors than if Unbreakable isn't in the picture. But firstly, I don't think this makes it better for the survivors than it is for the killer, and secondly, it's not an applicable comparison.
I don't think it's better for survivors than killers because there's more than just the fifteen seconds of incapacitation that come into play here. Remember that DS deactivates if the survivor offers -any- contribution to the survivors. Which means that all the time between being pulled off hook and actually bodyblocking is added to the time the survivor effectively spent being incapacitated.
Fifteen seconds is the absolute bare minimum it could theoretically be. And I don't think that's quite right with basekit BT now being in the mix.
Those extra seconds add up in favour of the killer.
So for the second part of your comment I'm not really understanding what your saying. From my interpretation your saying that the survivor was gonna get up either via unbreakable or teammate and that the survivors gained less from the survivor getting up via unbreakable as opposed to a teammate.
And this is in reference to why I don't think the comparison is applicable. Tossing Unbreakable into the DS bodyblock mix and then pointing out the obvious improvement of the scenario for the survivors is all well and good, but removing Unbreakable wouldn't just result in the bodyblocking survivor spending a longer time slugged out and pulling another survivor off gen to come to their rescue.
It would result in the bodyblock not even being attempted.
The alternative to unbreakable being paired with DS is not that someone with DS is bodyblocking the killer and waiting around to be picked up. The alternative is the DS user going straight for a gen and contributing. So do things really improve for the survivor when you compare the two scenes?
On one hand, we have three survivors on gens, while on the other, we have one survivor running around without contributing before giving a free down in an attempt to extend another's chase.
It's not relevant to compare the value of the bodyblock between the 'with UB' and 'Without UB' states, because the latter is not going to be relevant to the general game. If they are not going to get picked up, they're not going to let themselves get downed.
This, I think, is the bigger issue that people have with DS. Not with the actual result of its use, but with misperceptions about how DS changes situations: What to compare, and the full extend of the comparisons. It's easy to see the bodyblock and the fifteen second revive, but you have to keep way more factors than that in mind.
Besides, it's half a perk build and a hookstate for a singular bodyblock. Even Mettle of Man is better value.
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BU and FTP isn't anti tunnel they're just anti hooking in general considering it's most likely to happen on your first chase when everyone else is healthy.
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Still prevent a tunneled survivor to get hooked twice or 3 times in a row. They're anti tunnel. Which also being used on other cases.
Just a proof that the perk combo is stronger than using OTR and DS.
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I mean you keep touting that statement that ds only gives 6.4m and a lunge is 6m but you don't catch the survivor in 1s after being dsed just by lunging at them, maybe you are forgetting the obvious that you move 6m during a lunge but a survivor is also moving during a lunge so the actual difference in distance is much less
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I mean....then you just tunnel the BU/FtP user, idk if that's anti tunnel or volunteering to be tunneled lol.
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Yes, the counter is right there.
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Wat?
Shouldn't the counter to anti-tunnel be ...not tunneling?
This is just the same problem we started with with extra steps.
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It's a statement of comparison, nothing more.
With the 5 second stun the survivor still was stuck in animation for 1.4 seconds, but gained 8 additional meters of distance. (So 14.4 total)
If the player can barely outrange an m1 lunge with a once per match use perk, that's not effective in any sense. And that assumes, again, that the killer doesn't have a power whatsoever.
There were videos just after the 6.1 PTB showcasing how bad DS was, and most killers could just m2 and instantly down the survivor after the stun wore off.
It's a useless perk for tunneling. And the only reason people use it currently is for exhaustion reset. The nerfs for conspicuous actions and disabling in end game were fine, the 3s stun duration nerf was not ok.
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I mean yeah on its own the perk doesn't carry you, but its prefect for synergy and chase reset while looping
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Yeah but the fact that killers dont even see it as a threat just shows how much of a joke the perk is. It just needs a longer stun, thats it
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on its own its not a threat, thats how most perks work but when you combo them they become exponentially better thats the idea
buckle up on its own, mediocre
for the people on its own, meme
together great
power struggle on its own, useless
flip flop on its own, niche at best
together great
ds on its own, ok
dh on its own, alright but it loses a lot of value if you get hit off hook and tunneled
together great
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