About Mangled
I don't understand where the issue is with mangled. It's a non problematic status effect that is now being time limited for seemingly no reason. No haemorrhage being the reason is not valid either as that is the whole point of Sloppy Butcher.
Comments
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This one doesn't make sense at all. Good survivors already avoid healing as long as possible so mangled will be completely useless against them. It's also one of the few status effects that causes slow down on something other than generators.
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Nah, it needed. They nerfed healing and medkits to ground. Anti-heal needed some justice nerfs, yes? It's easy and free slowdown after all. Hitting survivors is your job, why game should give you free slowdown for this
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I think they should have adjusted Haemorrhage rather than Mangled.
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The issue is Hemorrhage, not Mangled.
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What a dumb argument, by your logic they should nerf exhaustion perks cause should why should you get a free sprint burst of 3 seconds for doing your job as a survivor of trying to evade the killer by running away/vault a window/drop from a landing ?
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I've had many more issues with Mangled than Haemorrhage. I remember when they changed Haemorrhage and got rather excited by the buff, but then found it rarely mattered in most games.
Honestly, I'm fine with the status effects being time-related. Hex perks can probably be perks used for more permanent status effects anyway.
As for whether I'm for the change or not, I'm not bothered either way. I just don't see this change as a particularily big problem overall.
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Except all of exhaustion perks have cooldown and can't be removed while running.
Mangled is not going anywhere unless you have perks like Inner Strength. And it has no cooldown either. You can hit 2 different survivors and they both will get this effect.
So now timing will make it balanced. Because survivor is still getting effect but it's no longer staying for forever.
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They didn't "nerf healing into the ground" they nerfed medkits SELF-HEALING, which were in fact OP.
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So why Nurse is not getting her justice? Because i am sure most people would put Nurse higher tier than old medkits and self-heal.
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The problem in my opinion was hemorrhage not mangled
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Oh, so now nurse needs to get her justice? Ok, she'll get her justice when they massively nerf survivors as a whole again. Maybe increase gen times another 15-20 seconds.
Obviously i'm being ridiculous on purpose and i don't think that should happen.
But the point still stands, nurse is, per the data, one of the worst killers in the game. So now you have to reconcile this belief:
- Do we balance the game around high level players or average players?
- If we balance the game around average players, you'll need to explain why nurse who has nearly 10% less kill rate than the devs are balancing for needs any kind of change other than MASSIVE buffs.
- If we balance the game around high level players, you'll have to explain why nurse and blight are the only viable killers in the game and why that is not a problem.
Unless of course your belief is that we should only balance the game around high level KILLER players, but average level SURVIVOR players. In which case you are extremely biased. And at that point, you may as well just remove the killer role entirely and make it a bot.
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Mangled on its own is not that oppressive. Sloppy Butcher is oppressive because it makes healing slower AND regresses incomplete healing. That’s why I want its healing regression removed. Most addons which apply Mangled by itself are not that strong and there are several survivor healing perks that are stronger than Mangled is.
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But the effects of exhaustion perks are literally much stronger than Mangled. 4 extra seconds of healing isn't an oppressive effect for being unlimited.
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We did not get kill-rates on all levels, yes?
We only got overall kills which is not telling anything.
You are just assuming only Nurse and Blight are good on that level but you know what? I just disagree with you here. I am pretty sure SM, Wesker, Plague, Spirit etc also doing fine on this level. Heck, even Freddy is performing good on this level according to Peanit's comment.
So please let's stop acting like Nurse and Blight are only killers who can handle good survivors, that's not true at all.
And Nurse's problem is her design. Even if she had 40% kill-rate, i would still ask rework for her. Because she is not fitting in current DbD.
Also we can nerf survivors if really all killers are performing bad in high levels but i highly doubt. Even 4-man SWFs are escaping like 48% of the time. Rest of teams are just butchering by killers. And that's high level ofcourse.
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I think it's the status effects combined in one package that's the problem, not either individually. And what sucks is it seems like Sloppy's not getting nerfed in that regard, and rather, being reworked to account for the reworked status effect with each tier likely applying a longer duration of Mangled.
I don't actually mind the Mangled rework though since it seems like it'll remain useful for hit n run killers while no longer being as good as just generic slowdown for killers who commit more to chases like Spirit and Slinger. Of course though I'll have to see what the actual duration is like on all of these perks and addons before I really decide if I like it or not. I'm also not sure if I agree with it counting down while hooked which is how I assume it's going to work.
Post edited by Shaddoll_Serpent on2 -
Yeah, that’s what I meant, and I agree. I don’t have a problem with either on their own, but on Sloppy Butcher and addons which have both status effects together, the Hemorrhage is what’s making them too strong imo. They should just stop putting them together and remove Hemorrhage from the existing perks/addons that have both. Then keep Mangled permanent/unchanged.
Imo Gift of Pain should be the only thing that gets to keep both effects.
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Since the generator repair delay was nerfed, the healing speed was also nerfed accordingly, and the game should have been balanced at the time. Please read the history instead of just quoting bits of fact.
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Generators did not got nerfed?
You got new anti-gen perk and it's meta: GE
Now kicking gens is removing 5% progress.
Gen tapping removed.
And i never saw people were reaching 8 regression events on single gen in normal matches, except Dull Merchant. So this is just buff for killers.
Mangled will be fine.
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I'm not inherently against conditions beimg limited time... Although for mangled does this include time on hooks, carried, or time on the ground?
Cause that would be a little poor if Sloppy Butcher for example was 90s... a hypothetical:
- 10s to ensure no saves or flashies
- 3s to pick up
- 8s to hook
- 30s to rescue
- 15s to get to safety and hide to heal...
We're then less than 30s left to go on a typical Mangled, give or take with variables above. Maybe this fine really I guess? Vigil would be good... stacking Vigil would be 🤓
60s Mangled effects seems like they'd be a little pants....
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BHVR making a change nobody asked for and most community disagree with, they still have not realized they should make changes the community wants to keep current players and bring more players in but oh well, BHVR just does whatever it wants, such is the curse of having no competition in the genre.
Survivor main moment, I can smell the bias.
They just happy they can bully low tier killers that actually benefited the most from mangled, easier.
Also BHVR catering to survivors 4/1 ratio moment.
They make mangled change to not be such a big deal when its actually is!
Mangled on its own is meh, its a strong combo but not strong enough to warrant a nerf, why should killer be punished by tracking survivors down and try to slow them doing generators?
I would frown at it if it was good on good killers as well but I literally never saw a Blight or Nurse run sloppy, just make killers that are too oppresive attacks be special ones and dont nerf a perk that's viable mostly for low tier killers to the ground because of a small scenario.
They didn't mention this but I doubt they took that into consideration and by the time survivors have to heal the mangled effect would be already good, rip.
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cause game is survivor sided and devs only care about survivors fun
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Not convinced that can claimed be when 4 killers, conveniently killers who likely use Sloppy, are getting categorical buffs that can't be argued as anything but buffs.
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This game is designed for 40 percent survivor win and 60 percent killer win. It's not survivor sided. If it was then old gen repair speed, old CoH, old healing time, old tool boxes, old loops, old dead hard, old MFT, etc. would still be in this game. I really could go on and on. Playing as survivor in 2019 vs now is a big difference. Same for killer too. Changes have been made on both sides. Killer mains will say this game is survivor sided and survivor mains will say it's killer sided. People who are close to equally playing both will see this game is pretty balanced and that these changes are needed. I've always said that Mangled needs to be timed like exposure, depending on the perk or add-on being used. I'm glad they are finally doing this.
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I think the issue was more Sloppy rather than Mangled as a whole. Do killers ever bring mangled addons or Gift of Pain? No, because Sloppy exists and is just a far too easy way to apply two status conditions that have great synergy.
Sloppy Butcher needed some kind of change to reduce it's strength and then after it's usage dropped a bunch, Mangled wouldn't be a huge issue because killers simply wouldn't bring it as much.
If they removed Hemo complete from Sloppy or gave it tokens of some sort so it wasn't just "every time you hit someone you apply these two debuffs", that would have helped.
This change just makes the other sources of Mangled even less desirable than they are now.
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The 5-second generator repair requirement is a trade-off with the limited number of reversals per generator. And in fact, the three-generator system is already having an impact on regular matches. Understand interactions rather than talking about elements in isolation. Please unravel the history.
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I see it the same way. "Mangled" is good, as it is in the PTB. You have to make a final decision. I like it :)
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It looks like hemorrhage is going to be on the same timer as mangled sloppy butcher is kinda dead. They added an additional nerf to SH: Gift of Pain too. Unless these were mistakes and I haven't seen the correction yet.
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My thoughts exactly. 90 seconds is still a long time though
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I just hope the status timer doesn't end up ticking away on hook. Imagine downing someone, hooking them and by the time they get unhooked, the timer is over anyway.
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Well, i've used to run Sloppy because of how inconsistent STBFL is (and nerfed right now), but will just run 3 Anti-gen perks + Lethal/Corrupt and go for it.
I wish i could understand why Behaviour is nerfing M1 killer perks when they are far away to be a problem.
TBH, with these kind of Nerfs, people might switch to high tier killers since the most fun part of M1 killers is getting gutted every patch.
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lets not pretend this community is any more qualified when it comes to balance. Not to mention what this community wants is not unanimous and not helping are users like you treating sides like its politics.
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Altering effects like mangled looks like a good look for the future. Adding timing leads to things like the new perk that can lower that timing against specific effects you do not like to deal with. Of course this would need time to adjust, but the overall idea is nice to be able to hopefully aim your perks to truly reflect your play style.
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They're wanting to change Mangled because it's only a problem through indirect reasons. They're acting like Mangled is a direct reason of being a problem when it really isn't. Mangled is a part of Sloppy Butcher which is a universal perk for killers and, as we all already know, it's a pretty nice slowdown perk while being the ONLY universal perk that gives any kind of slowdown which automatically makes it more common to be used.
Now the reason for why it's an indirect problem is just simply due to the fact that there really isn't any other universal perks that can help newer-ish killers slow the game down(especially with Surge being back on Demo now) or just any good universal perks for killers besides NOED it just results in Sloppy Butcher getting used a lot which indirectly causes Mangled to get used a lot.
On top of that there are other anti-healing perks in the game for killers, but there aren't very many of them and the ones that do exist aren't very good because Coulrophobia is based on the killer's terror radius making it primarily only good on killers who have a bigger terror radius like Doctor with Calm addons or just simply Wesker which is what makes it a less valuable anti-healing perk and Leverage is something that triggers for 30 seconds after hooking a survivor which effectively makes the slowdown hardly affect anything due to the fact that most survivors heal under or close to a hook which means that by time the survivors start healing there's only gonna be like 5-10 seconds left of the perk or it's already over by time the survivors start healing. Those two perks don't use Mangled and they both suck due to how they work with their requirements and such whereas Sloppy/Mangled always works and the only requirement it has is hitting the survivors with a Basic Attack.
TL;DR is basically the problem isn't directly from Mangled, but is actually an indirect problem from multiple things.
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Unless of course your belief is that we should only balance the game around high level KILLER players, but average level SURVIVOR players. In which case you are extremely biased. And at that point, you may as well just remove the killer role entirely and make it a bot.
That a common trend (not so explicit) i've been seen in this forums for quite some time: killer players should play at high level (not missing a shot, a power, a mindgame) or they should be punished by losing chases, gen and game; survivors, by the other side, should have seconds chances even if their team coordinates poorly (remember its a 4v1 game, not a 1v1) or they get instachased by a Clown/Ghostface.
If we aim balance for the average skilled player, then we should accept that killer we may not like to face will be buffed; if we aim to balanced around the top high players, then we should accept that some moments on the gameplay will be tense and require a lot of coordination to get out of it (like when the killer is proxy camping/ survivor sprending on gens solo).
My take is that we should aim into medium to high skill players = those who are not good as good as comp player, but know the basics well enough to plan smart strategies
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We are getting gens locked up all the freaking time and it's infuriating. Mostly only affects m1 killers since they can't afford to patrol gens 500 miles away from the rest, and definitely affects killers who run surge or eruption.
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I am using Nowhere to Hide and Surge or PR but yet, i am never reaching to max stacks on any gen. Maybe stop to hold 3 gen and chase survivors idk
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It’s a (1v1v1v1) v 1 game. Survivors aren’t rewarded (or punished) as a group. They receive these things individually. Just like killer.
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Chase them all the time. Not holding a 3 gen. I'm downing them plenty which is why the gens are getting locked up so fast due to surge. Heck, I've had 3 downs within 30 seconds. That's nearly half the allotted tokens allowed for the entire match gone in 30 seconds. Realistically you're only going to get a hook with a 3 down, maybe 2 if lucky (assuming you're at high mmr).
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I mean if you are getting downs pretty often, you are winning the game then. So i don't know what's the problem here. What you want? Gens never be finished? That's not gonna happen tho
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Yes because you can't get Exausted from Blood Echo if someone is hook; being block from escaping if someone is hook while the killer have Blood Warden; lose progress in your gen when someone is hooked in a Pain Ress or downed with Surge/Jolt; or even you can't be healed by your friends or have a blessing under another person boon area totem. (IRONY)
Sorry, its 4v1 game and you can't deny that. Killer just chase one person at time because its the game design. If games were like you are saying, people wouldn't complain about teammates in SoloQ, as the 1v1 aspect would be the decisive part of the game.
And i say that the best survivors are those that notice that being a team player is stronger than being a individual minded good looper.
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>And i say that the best survivors are those that notice that being a team player is stronger than being a individual minded good looper.
This is truly the truth. However, most survivors are unaware of this. All advanced players, both killers and survivors, lament this reality.
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That exactly what he and most people on this forum believe. It’s fine to balance Nurse around .1% of players, as well as high skill killers like deathslinger and blight, but god forbid we balance around optimal survivor play.
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90 seconds is fine, but I'd rather have seen it just get a percentage nerf.
It needs to be adjusted after the healing nerfs.
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I like the idea of the timer so you know you will get guaranteed slowdown if they heal within the 90s, and if not then you still kept them injured for 90 seconds which is a win in my eyes. It sharpens the identity of the perk rather than it being a catch all for infinite slowed healing.
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Once you get some more experience in the game, you'll learn that downs don't necessarily = hooks. The survivors have a variety of tools at their disposal that can prevent hooks after downs. I've even seen competitive level players not get a single hook after downing 3 people in a row. Survivors have a lot of power over the killer at high play.
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Downs should equal hooks 99% of the time.
If you are consistently, again consistently, losing downs that's a player issue.
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Because survivors can choose to heal, if they don't heal then they waste no time. Good survivors dont mind being injured as much etc. Plus this nerf does not do that much? Mangled is a far healthier slowdown than the kicking perks we had and it rewards the killer for splitting pressure with multiple hits. Also its 4 seconds, its really nothing to ride home about, regression perks are far stronger for game delay.
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Once you get more experience in the game, you'll eventually realize that isn't remotely true. Survivors have a lot of tools at their disposal to deny pickups. This even holds true in the high end competitive scene. Lots of times they simply won't even pick someone up because they know the attempt will fail. If you're getting hooks 99% of the time for every down, you got awl ways to go.
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Examples?
Any videos?
Any proof or are we just going to do the whole, "You must be bad" thing because if so, I've done it about 20,000 times.
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mangled change is nerfing nurse fragile wheeze. Personally, I never had a problem with hemorrhage effect so I do not see why it is getting nerfed.
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