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Do any survivors prefer a 60% kill rate more than 50%?

sinkra
sinkra Member Posts: 413

Something I find interesting about this whole debate is I've seen many killer mains justify the 60% kill rate and say it's good, but not a single survivor main who says it's good. BHVR's reason in their own words is this

We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed.

Presumably their intention is to make the game enjoyable for most survivors, because It doesn't make sense that they'd want to make the game fun for killers only who are just 20% of the playerbase at the expense of survivors. So that must mean they believe it's more enjoyable for survivor players to die in most matches "to support the horror theme of the game", and that most survivor players do not want a 50% kill rate.

I want to ask, are there any survivor players here who agree with BHVR that a 60% kill rate makes the game more enjoyable for them than 50%?

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Comments

  • Bafugaboo
    Bafugaboo Member Posts: 406

    I agree with the bp for the fallen. They even could incorporate if your earned bp was low, you got tunneled, or if you were eliminated under a certain time you could get condolence bp. It wouldn’t make you happy about the early leave but wouldn’t make you hate that you brought the bloody party streamers.

  • ChucksterMainin
    ChucksterMainin Member Posts: 39

    i dont care much about the kill and lose rates.

    I care that we are losing to nonstop to stacking gen regression on a top 5 killers on a daily basis

    I care about the non-stop tunneling that is happening

    I dont care if we(survivors) win/lose as long as we are having fun, it is that we are losing to the 2 things listed on top that are making matches unfun

    killers are the sole reason i(soloq) cant have fun and must run meta perks.

    :insert killer: oh but that 1 group out of 15 (really good)games really hurt my feelings because i couldnt 4k them.

  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 2,873

    Statistics are a load of nonsense anyway and trying to understand this game through them is a waste of time.

  • Quizzy
    Quizzy Member Posts: 862

    60% seems ok i guess. But what i hate the most is that they just ignore some of the concerns from survivor players when, some not all, killers take advantage of their role by playing dirty such as hard tunnel at 5. End of the day, its just a game. But when anyone in the match plays dirty just to win a casual game, its pretty tragic. The quality experience should be focused on both sides imo

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105

    How do you come to that number?

    When we look at Hillbilly, who is roughly at 62,5% on NL, he is loosing less then 30% and winning close to 50% of his games.

    Am i getting something wrong with the stats?

  • kin
    kin Member Posts: 552

    why do you want the killer to kill at least 1 survivor in only 50% of the matches? Not 4, but at least one.

    Kill rate is not win rate. Escape rate is also not the overall win rate of survivors, it means that 40% of the time at least 1 survivor escapes (for some, it turned out the percentage was higher).

    In fact, we don’t know exactly how many killers usually kill survivors or, conversely, how many survivors escape. We essentially have extremely useless, meaningless statistics on which you also base your conclusions on this. On the survivor side, some killers are too dependent on RNG to draw any conclusions


    . Not to mention the game is extremely unfriendly to beginners (there is not even proper training)

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,400
    edited February 23

    It's a tough balance to find where you try to make both sides as happy as possible. I can say for sure in my personal experience that survivor was way more enjoyable before they benchmarked a 60% kill rate, but killer was definitely less enjoyable for me.

    I don't know if they'll ever find a spot in this game where both sides actually feel satisfied in this regard. Some people want to escape every game and some people want to 4k every game, they can't ever make everyone happy.

    I'm the type of person that enjoys winning and being competitive, it's not an end all be all for me but I definitely play to win in the majority of my games and playing survivor feels like a chore in that regard sometimes. I don't really agree with the others in here saying they like the lower escape rates because it feels more challenging and rewarding when you do escape. In my experience it feels less like a challenge and more hopeless than anything. A lot of survivor games I'm wondering if there was literally anything I could have done to have gotten myself or teammates out, and half the time I truly don't think there was. The game was just lost from either matchmaking or terrible map spawns and layouts.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,514

    It's not really hook suicides.

    The devs made a lot of intentional changes to make it easier for a killer to secure in the end game. When a killer earning at least a 1K is meant to be more common than a killer scoring a 0K, the kill rate is bound to be higher than 50%.

    The other thing is kill rate and win rate are separate things. A killer "winning" a match is widely considered to be at least a 3K. On the other side, 3 survivors escaping is considered a lost for the killer.

    However, this doesn't always translate well to survivors especially ones who play solo. An individual survivor can die and see that as a loss even if the rest of their teammates managed to escape afterwards.

    At the end of the day, a 60% kill rate likely translates closer to an overall 50% win rate due to the asymm nature of the teams than a 50% kill rate would.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,386
    edited February 23

    Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's a contradiction.

    You conveniently cut off the part that shows a higher escape rate for SWF at high MMR. More survivors at high MMR play as SWF, this offsets the kill rates and is why the lower proprtion of solo survivors have a lower average escape rate.

    Moreover your 'contradiction' makes no sense if your point is that 'high MMR should have a higher win rate'. What about the killers win rate? If survivors had a higher escape rate at high MMR, that suggests killers would have a lower kill rate the higher their MMR.

    Also, MMR can just as easily be tailored to acheive a 60/40 split as it can a 50/50 split depending on how each role's MMR is calculated. Most other game's MMR doesn't do this because most other games with MMR are symmetrical and don't have two distinct sides.

  • Murgleïs
    Murgleïs Member Posts: 1,093
    edited February 23

    If you want to win all the time, go play Mario Kart.

    60% is already VERY generous taking into account the suicides.

  • Chaosrider
    Chaosrider Member Posts: 489
    edited February 23

    There wont by any surv that thinks being unfavored is a good idea. And there is absolutely no reasoning to have any average besides 50:50.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,449

    This one I can get fully behind. Having no restriction to perks and builds has been a core of DBD since its introduction of perks, but by now it weights and holds the game back more then it gives players "ultimate build freedom".

    Why not do a new perk class "regression perks" and "gen repair perks" and give a cap of 2. Easy as pie. The problem with the top 5 killers is a bit more complicated, though. Basically every single time BHVR buffed a weak killer, there was a big outcry and uproar about it, the buffs got reversed and nothing really changed. Like yeah, the full suit of Trickster buffs at that PTB some time ago was a bit much and way overtuned, no one denied that, but what we got out of the other side was barely worth the effort and did nothing to make Trickster any more fun to play, unless you were already really into him.

    Maybe its time to give everyone 10 build points and factor perk colors into the mix, something like purple = 4pts, green = 2pts, yellow = 1pt. Super strong combos like Grim Embrace + DMS or Buckle Up/FTP could be penalized with +1pt cost and/or certain meta perks could also get a point increase. THis would lead to much more build variety then people just running whats meta at the moment.

    Lastly, just plainly restrict certain perks for certain killer. When Awakened Awareness came out it got hard nerfed, because Nurse was so disgustingly busted by it. Same with Star Struck which lead to the standing term Star Struck Nurse. Just don't let Nurse pick this two perks and you suddenly got a whole new dimension that this perks could be puffed or played around with. Or when Thanatophobia got completely gutted because of two killers and now this two killers are the only ones worth running it on, because its worthless on everyone else.

    And then we got some utterly tone deaf decisions like nerfing Freddy of all killers, and taking away his only real clever play he got, IE placing pools of blood over walls. I know that he is next in line for a rework, but dayum, this was a resounding slap in the face for everything Freddy.

    Tunneling. Well, I personally have written whole books about tunneling and how and why its in the game and theories on how to fix it. I belive that my solutions could work, but really, there are literally a thousand others on the pages of this forum, BHVR just needs to cherry pick and polish the idea. Tunneling is really not fun for the receiving end, but the alternative would be a big, phat debuff for the player on death hook, because right now the killer gains nothing for keeping a survivor on death hook alive, but can easily get burned by their ability to just hold M1 on a gen as good as everyone else.

    Also, MMR is keeping things way too strict. Once you win a couple of games, you are in the sweat mines, either sweat or be rediculed to the max, there is no in between, and once you chose sweat, there is hardly any way back.

    Lastly, do away with de-pipping entirely. I know for a fact that a lot of my personal sweatting comes from de-pipping. When I am at 4 pips of five and a cute survivor gives up, I might not actually give them hatch, because I got burned so bad in the past by the pipping system. Do away with de-pipping and let everyone play anyway they like for the whole 30 days, not just the last week.

  • tjt85
    tjt85 Member Posts: 940

    I'm fine with Killers having a 60% kill rate (I play both roles, but I do tend to play more Survivor than Killer). When I load into a Survivor match I fully expect not to escape. I just want to be able to play out a match and not feel like I'm wasting my time for booting up the game.

    It feels like there are more frustrations to Survivor compared to what I experienced when I first started playing about a year ago. Be that inconsistent (or totally absent) match making, tedious but common perk combos like Pain Res + Pop + Grim Embrace, teammates tapping out without the courtesy of giving us a bot to play with, Killer perks I wish BHVR would hurry up and nerf / rework, some Killers being over buffed. It all adds up to a game that feels less fun to me right now. Most of my Survivor matches are sweaty at the moment, while Killer feels like it's on easy mode.

    I don't know, maybe I'm just starting to get a little burned out by it all. Anyway, it's not the dying in most trials that bothers me, it's other aspects of the game.

  • sinkra
    sinkra Member Posts: 413

    I believe the 60% kill rate has turned the game into a hardcore sweatfest for survivor players with no room for error. It's now a hardcore game (for survivors). The game is no longer accessible for casual players unless they play killer.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,102

    Even if the survivor players are top MMR they’re still escaping less than 50% of the time, let alone winning the majority of their games. I was kind of surprised by this. High MMR survivors aren’t even breaking even with killers when it comes to winning.

  • sinkra
    sinkra Member Posts: 413

    I'm still asking how can 50/50 be considered unbalanced?

  • woundcowboy
    woundcowboy Member Posts: 1,994

    When both sides are weak or average, the game favors killer. When both sides are strong, killer is at a big disadvantage. If you tried nerfing killer more to help the average players, they would be unplayable against good survivors.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,386
    edited February 23

    If you see my first post in this topic, you'll see that yes, survivors aren't making their ideal win rate (50% escape rate), but neither are killers making their ideal win rate either (62.5% kill rate/37.5% escape rate).

    The discrepancy is because a survivors win rate is identical to their escape rate, but a killers win rate is not the same as their kill rate. A 50% win rate for killers is a 62.5% kill rate.

    So many grievances with this game are down to it's asymmetrical format, yet the complaints seem to completely ignore it as a factor.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,102

    I think it can’t work in a game like this because survivors aren’t actually a team; they’re four individual players graded distinctly on their performance activities (emblems, MMR, bloodpoint distribution).

    Think of it this way: the game is like [Meg vs David vs Claudette vs Vittorio] vs Huntress. The survivors can contribute toward a common goal they share (escape) but at the end of the day they are rewarded or punished for their own individual escape.

    Huntress is rewarded for each individual survivor she kills (MMR increases, blood points, emblems). She’s not punished for killing all four survivors (as a team because they technically aren’t) because she’s essentially playing a 4-in-1 match. So to create an aggregate win rate of 50/50 would mean each individual survivor has a 50/50 chance of escaping the match against her. This would factor out to an aggregate kill rate (total amount of 2.5-3Ks she averages) of around 60%.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,102

    I actually touched on that in a subsequent comment. You’re right.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,782

    The actual solution would be for BHVR to release the WIN RATE stats for killers, so we can actually see how close the win rates are between survivors and killers.

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,400

    Why is the survivors target mark not also 62.5%? 2 kills 2 escapes is considered a draw for both sides. Why would the killers target mark be 2.5 kills per game average, aka a win on average, while the survivors target mark would be 2 escapes on average, otherwise a draw on average? I get the game is assym and you need to account for that but this just doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Not saying I think it should be this way or is even possible, but I’m just not following your logic.

  • sinkra
    sinkra Member Posts: 413

    You think some slight buff to survivor would make the game unplayable for killers? The game is practically unplayable right now for survivors. It's only possible to escape if the killer is really bad, afk, messing around, hatch, or if they let you go on purpose.

  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 2,141

    "i fully expect not to excape" Truly sad that some solo q players have even gotta to this state of thinking.

  • Ariel_Starshine
    Ariel_Starshine Member Posts: 937

    For me roughly every game is the same now due to all the changes made. It's just boring.

    Before each match was different, now it's just the saaaaaame stuff. Same perks, same killer play style. No variation whatsoever. Every match starts off with generators locked off by entity, then they use that perk where when you finish a gen, entity blocks one, then when someone is hook, gen blocked again. It's so boring lol

    Oh and it's always the same where it's down to two generators and then we all get sacrificed, rinse repeat woohoo

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,782

    Just out of curiosity, why do you think BHVR wants the kill rate to be 60%?