Has the game gotten too fast?
I mentioned this in another thread but the pace of the game is just way too fast thesedays. Both sides need to go into the game full speed and only make the most efficient plays if they wanna have a chance at winning.
That means gunrushing vs tunneling, second chance perks and genspeed perks vs gen slowdown perks, it's just not really that fun and I think it's possibly the biggest reason so many people are getting burnt out.
Of course not every single game is like this but when you get to even mid MMR it feels like a lot of your games become "can survivors rush gens before the killer tunnels someone out?" and I doubt anyone is having fun in a meta like that.
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As long as survivor continues to be weak in the 1v1 the game will stay like this. Nobody wants to interact with the killer anymore because they keep buffing killers to be oppressive in chase and nerfing maps and perks.
If they want people to get off gens then people need to feel like it'd worth healing up to take chase because they won't get right clicked at every loop.
But the whole game needs to shift focus for thay to not feel awful for killer which is something BHVR isn't willing to do.
So we're stuck with a crappy limbo that's killer favored because it's better to cater to the less popular role as a way to keep the game stable.
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No I get 20min games regularly now. Very tiresome.
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Yes, but imo that's more because the players are generally more knowledgeable on what the good strategies are (tunneling and split cranking gens) and so more players are doing them. As well as the general efficiency of preforming these strategies also going up.
Afaik there hasn't really been a meta where these were not the best thing to do. The most we got was that but with a side of "slow down your opponent(s) progress so much they can't do their strat effectively" with things like OG DS and Dead Hard, 3 gen Overbrine, and the CoH heal meta amongst others. In all of those the game was miserable for whichever side was slowed down.
So yeah the games are faster now than before but that's probably better than the games dragging on because one side can get stalled obnoxiously long just to still end up losing.
Getting rid of tunneling and gens racing would basically require a remodel or massive shift in the fundamentals of the game. So basically not happening in the foreseeable future. So as much as we all dislike it, both are probably here to stay.
If part of the problem is games in general are over "too fast" then we could slow both sides down. But survivors don't want more gen time and side objectives are also not in the foreseeable future as far as the devs have told us. So I don't know what else to say there.
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Again, I think I'm in a lower mmr than everyone else because I don't run into all this that much.
Besides who needs gen regression when the survivors spawn in already dead?
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Honestly this is a symptom of there being zero incentive to not do gens
would be sweet for there to finally be meta hex perks
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Yes. I have no doubt about that. Maybe it's fine with enough slowdown but I have so many short matches that it's quite hard to enjoy the game at times.
Back when survivors ran 2nd chance perks we had a different issue. But at least it didn't leave me feeling like I had no possible way to get anything done simply because I didn't have slowdown.
Both sides need some adjustments to make games go a bit longer and slightly reduce the impact of specific perks. I don't think slowdown perks should become completely obsolete but when matches end in under 5 minutes, it feels really bad.
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Yes, it has.
And as far as I know, no one likes fast-paced trials. Players want to have enough time for things to happen in a match, and use their perks or strategies.
If I were to guess, I'd say it has to do with a shift in playstyles (I blame 6.1.0 for that) and Hex perks being no longer meta. And those things are really bad for the game.
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It's the fact that for whatever reason the Devs felt the need to make this game all about Kills and Escapes
MMR= Kills and Escapes
Camping and Tunneling is all about getting Kills and quickly
Gen Efficiency makes Gens take 90 seconds or less
It's both sides not just one... just saying
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How could the games have become faster as gentimes got increased and we have the worst possible regression meta?
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Because survivors aren’t healing, they aren’t lighting boons, and they aren’t cleansing hexes. They’re focused on completing gens fast because killers are trying to turn matches into 3v1s quickly, which also makes sense.
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Yeah I've been timing mine and they're under 8 mins. Boring :(
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So basically for each are killers at fault. Crying that survivors actually did heal was OP, Boons were OP. Just hexes were never much of a deal at all. Old ruin just got powered through. So nothing really changed, just that killers got buffed, survivors got nerfed and killer strategies are worse than ever, cause devs are ignorant on that matter for whatever reason.
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no. Deciding whether to prioritize care self or repair gen is a matter of “risk and reward.”
If you make a wrong decision, the killer will hit you and knock you down, or in the opposite pattern your repairs will be ruined before you can completing gen.
Survivors who make the right decision will defer their own recovery and complete Gen when possible. As the theory matures and everyone shares it, everyone's actions and matches progress faster. This is happening now.
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No way this regression meta is anywhere near close to the worst. Eruption/CoB/Overcharge takes that easily. And don't forget Ruin/Undying.
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No one is really at fault. The most efficient way for each side to play is by completing as much of their objective as they can posthaste. It’s a loop with no beginning (cause) or end (solution). Because if you nerf either side to where they’re slower completing the task necessary to achieve their objective, the other side becomes too oppressive. As soon as a trial starts survivors and killers are in a race to the bottom. And nothing has really changed about killer or survivor strategies in that regard. It’s always been best practice to turn the match into a 3v1 ASAP (for killers) or knock out at least 2 gens before first hook (for survivors).
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The game has become faster because there's still nothing to do for survivors besides gens while there's multiple things for killers to do, break walls, break gens defend gens, chase, break pallets etc what else is there for survivors to do? Chests? Totems?
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i think it all depends on your perspective and how the game is being played by either side.
to some, the game will appear faster because there's more efficiency being displayed by both sides at higher level play. to others, it may appear slower because of pacing, minimal activity, or lesser experience. generally, one side has the ability to dictate the pace of the other if it's either forced or accepted.
some maps enable faster gameplay as well, eg. new coal tower, new mother's dwelling, etc.
i personally think the match speeds are fine. there's a lot of variance, and most matches average between 10-15mins which is perfect. you never want a game that lasts too long or is too short!
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I mean the survivors have to be weak 1v1, or else the killer simply doesn't have time tokill anyone before endgame. 60 second chase might feel "decent, but not amaxing" for the surv player, but it's a huge amount of time for the killer player.
Ideally every survivor would get at least a few good chases by the time the game is over but there is only so much time before gens are done or everyone is dead. The game is just fundamentally difficult to balance.
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Absolutly, at least for my taste. I would not mind if games would last 2-3 minutes longer, because gameplay would be more interesting.
That is why i suggested a few solutions for this. Unfortunatly most people were not happy with those.
The first one was more pallets and more options for survivor to defend, but add a second object.
The other one was a solution to tunnel that would even out the game. Less faster gens in early, but overall faster gens in late game.
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I firmly believe, that Undying Ruin was the healthiest slowdown meta we ever had. Killers that wanted to get anything from that combo, would have needed to constantly pressure gens. Which resulted in less camping/tunneling.
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This is well thought out. Add more objectives which woulD be enjoyable and unique to each map. Then add more pallets or slowdown possibilities to compensate. This still would have some growing pains to balance but is an excellent suggestion.
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I think it can be too fast, but it's very rare for that to be the survivor's fault and more common for it to be the killer's fault- which I say as gently and non-judgementally as I can, I'm not bashing anyone here.
To start, we'll tackle the survivors. It is possible for random chance or outright survivor intent to make the game too fast. Everyone spawning on different generators and getting on them immediately is a huge boost to the game's speed, proper genrushing builds with a stacked toolbox is a massive boost to the game's speed, and the two together are legitimately unbalanced. It happens, I'm not denying that, it just doesn't happen that frequently.
Next, killers. I don't like to leap straight to "skill issue" when it comes to talking about issues like this, but there's a degree to which I have to comment on gameplay + tactics, and if certain gameplay choices or tactics lead to the issue being discussed... there's gonna be an undercurrent of "skill issue" that I can't shake off, unfortunately. Just know I'm more interested in fostering improvement than snidely condescending here.
So, what can the killer do that causes the game to go too quickly? Generally speaking, it comes from a lack of pressure, and anecdotally I've had a lot of conversations on here with players who don't seem to have a great grasp of what that pressure actually looks like. If you don't want the generators to fly (and the survivors don't all have stacked toolboxes with complementary builds, etc etc etc), then your goal is to occupy as many of them as you can at once, because the more of them you're forcing to react with something other than generator repair, the slower the generators go.
It would be tempting for me to snidely say "You know what doesn't occupy multiple survivors? Tunnelling", and while I believe that, I'm trying to be diplomatic and constructive here so I'll just... reference it in passing and move on. The tradeoff for tunnelling, abstracted out into game analysis, is pretty simple: Leave three survivors to do what they want (minus deducting one temporarily, for when they go to save) in exchange for a massive boost in objective progress once you're done. Most of the time, unless you get your first + subsequent downs very very quickly, that's going to speed the game up. Why wouldn't it? You're explicitly not slowing any gen progress down because you're only chasing the one guy.
If, after getting a hook, you let the one guy peel off to get the save while you go chase a third survivor, that slows down gen progress a lot more because only one survivor is on generators compared to the two to three that are on generators while you're tunnelling. It's harder, there's more room for survivors to react and outplay you, but... y'know, it's a game, that's supposed to be true.
There's a misconception that in order to win "at high MMR", you need to stack three or four slowdown perks then tunnel the first guy out as quickly as possible. This shoots you in the foot. Those four slowdown perks aren't activating that often if you aren't spreading your pressure, since all of them tend to activate on down or hook - sometimes first hook! - these days, and you're not stopping the rest of the team from pumping gens to their heart's content while tunnelling out one of them.
If you bring fewer slowdown perks, craft a build that actually complements a playstyle/power, and spread your pressure, the match tends to go a lot slower unless you're massively outplayed- and that does just happen either way, sometimes you have to take the L and move on.
TL;DR, slowing down the game is one of the killer fundamentals when it comes to skill expression... but the game has no way of teaching you that and conventional wisdom for how to play well runs completely opposite to how you'd do it, so some players get faster games they could absolutely avoid.
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I enjoyed lights out because both sides were perkless and I felt like I could try different strategies on each side without worrying if a certain perk was in play. Whether I was winning or losing I never felt like I got robbed for getting destroyed for example.
While playing Vanilla I feel like I have to always bring my best builds or accept a loss. I want to try fun non meta builds but if I do I essentially cost my team the game or I throw the game as killer doing so. It just feels like there are so many perks in the game yet so little because it's always the same type of perks needed to play the never changing meta.
So essentially - I agree but to an extent where everyone is bringing their best loadouts for fear of the other side doing the same. Sometimes the killer gets stomped for a misplay and sometimes all the survivors die in less than 5 minutes. If not the game drags out for about 10-15 minutes.
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It’s always been best practice to turn the match into a 3v1 ASAP (for killers)
I think DS did put a dent in that, back when it was still a thing.
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Yet when survivors are strong in a 1v1 the other 3 still push gens and avoid healing because there's no danger. Being weaker in a 1v1 is more incentive to stay healed and work together
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I think the games are longer than they used to be since they changed gen speeds a while ago. games would almost always be under 10 mins now they're 12+ usually.
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It was a discouragement, but I guess BHVR hoped endurance could somehow work better. And it would have if it stacked like it did in PTB (but killers complained about that).
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Yes I believe it has gotten too fast.
When I want to play longer lasting games I will slug when playing as the Killer. I won’t even hook, I’ll just slug and go on to find the next Survivor.
I have found that this slows the game down for me. The dying Survivors are not picked up as quickly as they are unhooked.
If I find that I have slugged all four then I will let one wiggle free to revive everyone else. During that time I will go and kick generators and then start chasing again.
It’s not optimal play for getting kills since you are in more chases but the time saved from hooking Survivors does add up when it comes to building pressure.
I don’t get many kills at all playing like this but the games do last a lot longer- for me at least.
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To be fair, the bodyblock stuff that people have now invented as a problem with pre-6.1 DS was a legitimate issue with Endurance stacking, so it's fair that it got removed.
But it's still BHVR trying to reinvent the wheel, ending up with an exploding hexagon and going 'that'll do'. Why they haven't reverted some of the dumbest nerfs by now is anyone's guess.
(But they did revert the one good nerf on Ruin for the double whammy of failure)
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Yaa, the bodyblocking was awful. And yes the mechanic deserved retooling. But can you really say what made it through in its place is any better? Seems anti-tunneling just became zero sum in the end. My guess is they aren’t reverting nerfs (to survivor things anyway) because they’re content with their stats.
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I agree. I would be quite happy if they buffed Ruin back up to 200% with the condition of deactivating upon a survivor's death. Undying/Ruin was much healthier than the current meta.
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But can you really say what made it through in its place is any better?
Hah, no. But it's better for the killer, and I think that's all that matters to BHVR at the moment.
Depends on which Undying/Ruin you're talking about. Penta-Undying was bad, but Undying/Ruin after the Undying nerf was really good.
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yes...the only thing for survivors to do is gens, chests, and totems...nothing else...at all...
The survivor emblem system would like to have a chat with you.
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It was one of the worst of times bc survivors could not figure out gen tapping, or hit those skillchecks for whatever reason. Didn't have to worry about the killer heavily regressing the gens, had to worry about other survivors, on top of being heavily farmed by other survivors bc they wouldn't do ruin gens. My eye still twitches thinking about it.
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Undying was trash after its nerf.
Penta Undying + Ruin was healthy. As it required the killer to constantly switch targets. But didn´t force survivors to cleanse 5 totems, since Ruin had no effect when a gen was worked on.
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Ruin was changed from skill check to passive reqression before Undying Ruin was a thing. So they never worked together in that situation. Ruin had no effect as long as someone worked on a gen.
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You're vastly underestimating how powerful Ruin was. If Ruin wasn't found before first hook, it was a guaranteed 3K+ for the killer. Yeah, Ruin doesn't have any effect on a gen that's being worked on, but if someone wants to go for the save, they basically give up a huge chunk of progress on their gen. Adding up to a whole generator in extra time investment to get rid of it was absolutely crippling and it had to be removed.
Undying + Ruin was solidly powerful and a valuable tool. PentaUndying + Ruin ranged from being exactly that, to being an RNG dictated free win.
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At 200% regression it still was only regressing at half the speed a single survivor takes to repair.
Yes, that survivor lost some progress. But assuming that the 2 survivors came back to the same gen, the lost progress was meaningless.
Pretending that Ruin guaranteed a 3k+ for killers is ridiculous. With how popular Ruin was, kill rates would have peaked to never seen highs.
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Lost progression is never meaningless. IF one of the other survivors makes it to that gen, they can stop the regression, but that's a pretty big IF. And it's still lost progress, which the killer didn't need to activate in any way.
Pretending that Ruin guaranteed a 3k+ for killers is ridiculous.
I didn't say that. I said that if Ruin wasn't found before first hook, it guaranteed a 3K+. The fact that it's a hex and thus could be cleansed is the only spanner in the works. Removing that makes it broken, which is why PentaUndying was not okay.
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Whats the problem with lost Progess? Its a pvp game. Both sides use perks to make the other side lose progress. Thats the whole point of the perks.
Also, as you say, its a Hex perk. Killer could lose it without getting anything from it. Which is why most Hex perks have become rarely seen. Since no one equips them anymore. A killer losing 1 perk weighs heavier than a survivor losing 20-30 seconds of gen progress, by staying away for 40-60 seconds.
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Here’s the issue. People don’t want to slow gen speeds down, so they’re forced to make killers stronger in the 1v1 to compensate for how fast the game can go or encourage tunneling basically. This is less fun for survivors.
Ideally I would’ve rather them go the other way. Let survivors have their stronger loops and killers not quite as good in the anti loop and 1v1 as they’ve been pushing and instead slow the gens down to give killers extra time to deal with those loops. This doesn’t necessarily have to mean just adding time to gens either. It could be indirectly through stronger gen slow down or shrinking maps significantly to improve map pressure.
Of course doing gens is boring so this would have to come with some increased interactivity changes to doing gens as well.
You sort of see this scenario with something like Pig. Generally speaking an m1 killer all game with bad anti loop so she mostly has to play all the loops at face being weak but her passive slow down with the RBTs give her the extra time to commit to those loops since she’s so weak at them. End result being the survivors got to have their fun/strong loops but the killer was also given the extra time to commit to them without losing the whole game from it.
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Whats the problem with lost Progess?
Why are you asking me? I'm saying Ruin was a good perk.
Also, as you say, its a Hex perk. Killer could lose it without getting anything from it.
Yes, but that's also why PentaUndying was a problem, because it could effectively remove the downside it had to counterbalance how powerful it was.
A killer losing 1 perk weighs heavier than a survivor losing 20-30 seconds of gen progress, by staying away for 40-60 seconds.
I think that's not a very accurate representation of what happens in game. If the survivors break the Hex before the first hook, they spent time not on generators at the point of the game where survivors are at their strongest, which could break them up in the long run. If they didn't cleanse it, it's going to put in more work than 20-30 seconds.
Ruin was good, before it got senselessly axed. That wasn't the problem. But taking a hex perk and then making it not a hex perk is just flatly too strong, which is why PentaUndying had to go.
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But it still was a Hex perk. Doesn´t matter if the survivors had to cleanse it once or 5 times. Its still a perk (actually 2) that the killer lost in exchange for a longer match. There were 4 survivors in a match. So everyone had to cleanse 1 or 2 hex perks. That isn´t overwhelming much in comparison.
I think i had like 2 overall matches, where i cleansed all 5 totems alone. But i went into the match with the mindset and build to get rid of totems. Which is also something, no one does anymore.
The passive slowdown, that wasn´t punishing new survivors, like the skill check Ruin, while also giving killers an incentive to constantly switch targets. Made the perfect match prolonging meta we had. Unlike what came afterwards. With the gen kick meta, or gen block meta, or slug meta...
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But it still was a Hex perk. Doesn´t matter if the survivors had to cleanse it once or 5 times. Its still a perk (actually 2) that the killer lost in exchange for a longer match. There were 4 survivors in a match. So everyone had to cleanse 1 or 2 hex perks. That isn´t overwhelming much in comparison.
That's still 70 seconds worth of time total, minimum, regardless of whether it's split or not. That's an obscene amount of slowdown. As I've stated in response to the age-old adage of 'Just do bones': Doing the bones makes it better slowdown than a Thanatophobia in a match where everyone has No Mither.
The passive slowdown, that wasn´t punishing new survivors, like the skill check Ruin, while also giving killers an incentive to constantly switch targets. Made the perfect match prolonging meta we had. Unlike what came afterwards. With the gen kick meta, or gen block meta, or slug meta...
I don't know why we're arguing Ruin because I'm pretty sure we're in agreement on that thing. It did not deserve the nerf it got.
But PentaUndying was broken and did deserve its nerf.
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We are still arguing, because Ruin on its own was to weak. Especially with how bad the totem spots are. Equip 4 Hex perks and watch half of them vanish before you even find the first survivor. The spawns have become ridiculous easy to find. Undying was necessary, because it gave Ruin a longer live span. Current Undying isn´t really worth it. Despite being good for Hex perks like Devour. Simply because of the bad spawn points. I could argue that things would improve a lot, if the spawn points were actually hidden and survivors had to spend time searching them.
But the combination of bad spawns + weak perk effect = no one taking hex perks.
Per definition, Hex perks are supposed to be high risk, high reward perks. But the reward part is completely missing. Only flaw the original Undying had, was the aura reading. Take that + the remembering stacks away. Then go back to the point where it could revive a hex 3 times. Otherwise it just stays as a meh perk.
Spawns really need an overhaul. The game feels faster, because survivors don´t spend any time searching totems. They spawn next to a gen and do said from the first second. There is no secondary objective that takes time away from survivors. So killers stick to applying pressure. Getting someone out early, applies pressure. Its a direct result of an attempt to slow everything down. Do i like it? No, but thats just how more and more killers work.
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I’d like to point out that killers have stuck to ‘applying pressure’ (which I presume you mean by way of tunneling) since time immemorial. Even during the EruptOverBrine meta killers were ‘applying pressure’ without any need for it. Suggesting that slowing down survivors will somehow stop killers from ‘applying pressure’ is far fetched. Reality doesn’t bear that out at all.
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But its apparently getting worse. As in more and more killers use this tactic. Maybe we´ve reached the point of no return and thats just how the game is now.
Kinda unfun for both sides.
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I’m going to be candid—I don’t believe tunneling is worse. It has always been optimal to tunnel out the ‘weakest’ survivor ASAP. I think because survivors are less distracted (no boons, no hexes, no healing, no items worth searching for, maps shrinking with weak pallets and dead zones growing so chases aren’t lasting as long either) they’re more focused on the macro-game elements and this highlights how impactful tunneling 1 person out early truly is. Tunneling isn’t necessarily more intense or prevalent than it has ever been, it’s just there’s been a perfect storm of changes that now leaves survivor players with little else to pay attention to.
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I see it exactly the same way. I'd like to play fun builds again, but then it's one defeat after another and that's no fun.
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