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Tunneling is overblown
I will start this by saying this. My experience is not the same as everyone else’s and I do play at higher MMR. I do play Killer and Survivor and will approach this from both perspectives.
From Killer perspective, tunneling is only optimal if you find the “weak link” early on in the match. Trying to tunnel an above average Survivor early in the match will cause them to run to the strongest portions of the map while most of the pallets are still up. If you’re going to tunnel, it has to be a Survivor that doesn’t have great map awareness and is a weaker looper. Otherwise, it simply takes too long burning through god pallets and main building loops. In endgame, there’s no reason to chase anyone else and the face camping penalty and anti-tunnel perks are disabled. Its quite literally the game design to tunnel at that point.
From the Survivor perspective, with good game sense (or Widows of Opportunity), being tunneled early in the match gives you the ability to take the Killer on some long chases. Most of the pallets are up and you can abuse the strong, safe parts of the map to buy your teammates time to work on generators. Its actually a big positive because if you’re the first chase no one else has used anything so you probably won’t get stuck in a dead zone due to a missing filler pallet. Late game, tunneling is a legitimate strategy. There are more dead zones and the Killer has already lost a of a generators, so there’s a lot more pressure to get someone out of the game. It doesn’t feel great to be the Survivor thats singled out but late game its pretty normal.
Comments
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Facts
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Consider this, it doesn't matter if you take the Killer on a minute long chase. With the amount of anti-loop powers and the average map being filled with deadzones, I'd say a minute is a long chase.
When they have perks like Deadlock or PR or Grim stacked on top of natural slowdown (healing, unhooking, chases etc etc) they can afford to get destroyed in chases and still win handedly.
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You're talking about tunnel vision. Blindly chasing the first moving object you see at the start of the match. But most people mean getting chased direct off hook, when theyre at their most vulnerable.
As killer you have to play strategic if you want consistent results. You could be the best chaser in the world, but getting 8 hooks before getting a kill every game will make you lose games you easily could've won.
Finding a weak link (or someone in a weak position), and hitting them straight after the unhook or waiting out bt is in many situations very efficient.
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I definitely think tunneling is a major issue for casuals/new-mid players… or the majority of the player base. When there’s a lot of people on/play during prime time… I hardly run into this. When I play during off times, I still run into it but it’s a detriment to the killer if they pick the wrong person. Like today, a wraith chose to tunnel me because he zoned me in a dead zone with 1 pallet which gave him a quick chase. When I got off hook, I beelined straight to a strong jungle gym with off the record active and he finally got a down on me again at endgame with a result of a 0k because of cracked teammates.
part of this issue is backfilling as I was playing my p100 and 4 other killers dodged before this killer got put against me.
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Every killer on the forums is high mmr. 🤣🤣 They just all happen to be in the top 5% no big deal bro.
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Yeah, once you get that first hook, the most efficient way to win will almost always be to just stay on them and tunnel them out. They're injured and you know right where they are.
What I hate most about it is that it just unnecessary most of the time, especially in solo. But if we're talking about mitigating risk and taking the easiest path to a win, tunneling the first hooked surv is your best bet.
I hate it, and I don't do it (at least not until late in a game that I am losing), but it is what it is.
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If your post is meant to say that tunneling isn't a problem you're missing the nuances in the discussion. Tournaments, for example, are huge tunnel and gen rush fests and survivors do win. There are counters to tunneling. That's not the point of a lot of the discussion.
The point about the discussion is that tunneling is not fun for the other side and that you need both sides to have fun to have a healthy game. As well, it disproportionately affects newer and casual players as the skill floor for tunneling is a lot lower than the skill floor to combat tunneling. Ignoring that tunneling is more prevalent and isn't fun leads to less player retention which is unhealthy for the game and would be as shortsighted as when the VHS devs ignored how unfun the Monster role was for approximately a year.
As well, ignoring the prevalence of tunneling because of high MMR SWFs competing would be as shortsighted as balancing on the top is a mistake for any game that depends on participation instead of spectators for revenue. Players are concerned with whether they're having fun; not whether someone in a tournament or a high level streamer has fun.
The top MMR should definitely be taken into consideration as they are players as well but, if they are the sole consideration, it's not healthy for any game that grows or withers on the basis of numbers participating.
I'm not sure if that was your point (that tunneling can be countered) but that's superfluous to some of the discussion taking place.
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I don't see tunneling very often in my mmr range either. And when it does happen its because a survivor made a mistake. Killers dropping chase is more common in fact for me.
But i do see it often when swfing with less experienced players. Killers quickly identify the newer player and try to focus on them. Now imagine that same scenario where the new player is being singled out but does not have a swf to help them.
While you can make the argument that good survivor teams can counter tunneling just fine that does not make it any less frustrating for average/newer players. At those levels of play tunneling is very strong and very easy. On the other hand the skill and coordination needed to counter tunneling is quite high.
I think its a reasonable frustration to have. Being tunneled sucks when you are still learning.
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I completely agree. Being tunneled sucks when you're learning the game, but I think people misplace their frustration at the game design or the Killer player being "toxic" when they get tunneled. A lot of times the player that gets tunneled is the "weak link" and they don't ever consider that its very noticeable to the Killer.
Because of this, I don't even think that the tunneling some players complain about is fixable or even a problem. Killers will naturally target weaker players in every game. Sometimes players will load into a game where they're vastly at a disadvantage and there's little way to know it. Because MMR is invisible, it doesn't properly discourage people queuing with friends of different skill levels or make the fact that the backfill mechanic has no matchmaking very clear to the average player, which I almost think is a bigger issue actually masked by the "tunneling" problem.
Post edited by gatsby on3 -
Interesting take. I like how level headed you are about this. Lets see if the vibe stays that way. :)
Killers take: Agreed. Now, where does that leave the issue? Killers tunneling optimally isn't exactly the problem. Its tunneling out the gate, 2 seconds into the match. If this survivor team is a top 1% SWF, ok, tunnel your heart out. BUt I dont think anyone on this forum is there, despite ego's abound.
As well, new players. I know its silly to keep hearing this, but if we're gonna hear about the top SWFS that apparently requiree the killer nation to tunnel, then the bottom portion matters just as much. And right now, I'd wager we're bleeding players than retaining due to, yup. Tunneling.
Survivors take: It sucks. Really, thats about it. Good game sense, WoO and such would be a somewhat seasoned player. New players have none of this. So I can't get totally on board, but I do like how you put it all together :)
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I think something important to note is that new players will always be tunneled to an extent. If a Killer sees a really obvious weak link, they will tunnel because they know it'll be easy due to the player being a weak link. I don't know if you can ever balance the game to the point where an obviously less skilled survivor doesn't draw the Killer's focus.
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An inexperienced killer will lose sight of a survivor before tunneling in the first place. The tunnel is established not because the killer is complacent with cheap actions, but because of a failure on the part of the survivor.
I hate sophistry. If you all are considering Survivor to have beginners, ask for it from Killer as well.
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I agree with that to some extent. But as the meta is now, it will happen every time they play. What incentive does one have to want to keep trudging through that when they are 'trying the game out'? It's not going to be a positive for the game overall, I would wager.
New players need to experience getting tunneled, yes. Its just apart of the game. But it's thick right now and basically the standard killer experience. I couldn't get some friends to keep playing. Others have stated the same. But yes. New players will get tunneled to some extent.
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If you’re trying to get friends to try the game, you have to remember that your account will increase the average skill of the match for matchmaking purposes. So by playing with them you’re actually giving them harder matches.
You might notice that the Killers hardly chase you and tunnel your friends because of the skill difference which makes the game unfun. The only way to avoid that would be getting a fresh account or purposely playing badly to evenly distribute hooks so Killers don’t leave your chases and target your new friends.
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No, they won't. New Killers tunnel just as much and it's just as effective since they don't leave the hooked area.
Tunneling is entirely on the Killer. The Survivor cannot force the Killer to tunnel.
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Good killers don't just tunnel the first surv they see / chase. Except they can already tell this surv didn't play well or they got a really quick first down. I think it's more about knowing WHEN to tunnel, that knowlegde and exp comes just with playtime. When a killer starts to tunnel because they feel they NEED now cuz the gens are flying, 90% the games it's already to late anyway and they only get 1 or 2 kills, maybe 3 if the survs are dumb or NOED things.
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It is told entirely from the perspective of a novice survivor. If you say you don't, then by all means, take care of the novice survivors. He can be helped in any way he can by the cooperation of those around him.
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If I play with my friends who are new, they get put up against experienced Killers who identify them and tunnel them out ASAP.
If I do not play with them, they get tunneled out by Killers near their own MMR.
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I agree. I played five games with them, and we had some laughs but when they played on their own, it took 3 days to know it wasn't for them unless we were going to customs.
But I'd rather hear from you about my point. What incentive do [new players] have to want to keep trudging through the current killer meta when they are 'trying the game out'? I'm not trying to draw out an argument or an 'us vs them'. Purely for the health of the game, or even just new player retention, how could this be addressed? Perhaps I'm way out of line and this isn't as big a deal as it looks to me. But as a business, I would think keeping player retention high is important on the list.
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I have experienced many times when I have been saved by the sacrifices of my allies, and on the other hand I have also help other. Are you saying that there is no such cooperation system?
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Killers tunnel not because it works against the top 10% survivors who can chain titles and make chase last forever.
Killers tunnel because they know it works against 90% of the remaining survivors.
Without tunneling, they should still able to win against at least 60%, but they dont like that.
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It is usually not possible. Games these days usually either end up in a 4K or a 4 escape.
Getting a single person out is not a win. DBD is not a team game, at its core.
I have no control over my random teammates nor their actions. Considering that DBD actively punishes you for sacrificing yourself for your friends, I doubt many are jumping at the opportunity.
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Show proof you play at high MMR show me your MMR or Elo number.
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The difference in play styles between Asia and Europe and America may be the reason for the difference in perception. You probably don't have the mindset of increasing your own survival rate by sacrificing yourself if necessary and increasing the survival rate of all survivors. This itself is a matter of understanding the game.
It's unfortunate for both you and me.
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If you die you're "elo" goes down so this is not optimal gameplay like pulsar said this game is not a team game at its core. So like he said putting yourself in any harmful situation negates an opportunity to just escape with hatch and have a neutral elo fluctuation. In swf this is sometimes diffrent depending on the group but on solo q this game is every man for themselves.
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In that match I die, but in the next match someone else dies and saves me. That way we both have a better chance of survival. It's a very simple logic, and if we really want to survive, there's no reason why we shouldn't do this to each other.
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It's very simple.
You lose MMR if you die and you gain MMR if you win.
If you lose MMR, you get more bad teammates who won't save you, causing you to drop more.
If you gain MMR, you get better teammates (theoretically) but Killers get much more intensely focused.
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What difference does one or two losses make? By increasing the overall survival rate, the number of times we survive will increase. This is overwhelmingly higher than the number of deaths. In the end, it is more advantageous in terms of MMR. Everyone knows this, so we don't mourn just a fw deaths.
Dwight says so too. In order for me to be saved, I have to let everyone else live.
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Of course, even if I don't, selfish Survivor guys can ruin a match. Sometimes when I team up with a novice survivor, I can't win.
However, I sometimes meet many survivors who think the same way as me. Everyone performs to the best of their ability and escapes. Sometimes there are victims, but everyone takes turns taking charge. In that case, I'm more likely to survive. It is natural that if one person is sacrificed, 3/4 will survive.
Therefore, even soloQ can survive by 40%. That's fun enough.
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This is not the "Gotcha" you think it is
How many people even visit the forums lmfao. I bet 99% of the player base doesn't even know they exist. You have to be quite passionate, aka spend a lot of hours into the game... which I'd (hopefully) assume it translates into higher skill.
The threshold for High MMR is also depressing low as killer. Just play during a Friday night, all the 5k hour SWFs show up... but hey, I guess those peeps aren't in the top 5% lol, after all if you don't have 20k hours and scrimming every other week, are you even a high MMR player?
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It’s not a new or old player discussion. It’s a do they like the game or not. If they do then they will learn and get better. If they don’t then they will not play. Has nothing to do with strategies. I am new and never viewed tunneling as a bad thing, it’s just a part of the game. The issue is putting requirements on others or expecting certain results. If you are new you should know it’s a game that has been out for a while and you are gonna get rolled a lot. It is just a mindset.
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That makes sense. I think the part where we do disagree is that I do view tunneling as a problem but on a macro (game longevity) versus micro (individual match) level. People want to win a decent amount of time and if the game mechanics favour tunneling they will tunnel. As well, while I would never want to go back to the Erupting Call of Overbrine days and people do mock the idea that by nerfing x way to acheive pressure and slowdown matches killers will tunnel more, it is true to a certain degree. I was tunneled a lot less in those days because games weren't as fast paced. There are a limited number of ways to spread pressure and slow down matches and if one gets nerfed the others will be used more. With very few exceptions though the Killer isn’t toxic by tunneling; they're just playing the game.
I think it can be fixed but it would require a significant change to game mechanics. I think it would be healthier overall and increase player retention but as DbD is in no danger of dying anytime soon I don't know if BHVR will actually make any changes. I'll still advocate for changes to mechanics that reduce the problem but can respect both sides fun and just see what happens.
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(slight chuckle)
your high mmr too?.... alright let me stop🤣
I believe u. I just don't think every single player on here is high mmr and most them seem to think they are.
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Its just a thing I do because the skill floor entry for this game is so genuinely low that if you're not experiencing games for the first time as a whole you can pick it up very quickly. Unironically the hardest learning curve is most of the killer powers which even then don't require much of a brain to counteract given the current state of the game. But nontheless slap on windows of slop and exhaustion and that can carry you vs all the M1s.
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Do you get the feeling that when you’re playing with friends who are new, you’ve got to play super aggressively (keep aggro/pull chase) to keep them from being tunneled out? And along with that you might also need to get saves and heal them?
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I have a different take on tunneling than most…
Thematically, I love the idea that a Killer can have a vendetta against a Survivor. I love that a Nemesis on RPD can have tunnel vision for the Leon that spawns into the match.
However, as it exists it causes too much frustration for the person being tunneled. It sucks having to wait so long to queue up and load into a match just for it to maybe last less than 5 minutes. But then again, the whole “Survival is not guaranteed” thing is true too and helps build thematic tension.
I’m not sure what the answer is… Super Endurance? Idk but I wish there was something that changed it a little bit.
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Tunneling doesn't just effect that 1 singular survivor though. If it did, killers would never do it because it wouldn't be a winning strategy. Tunneling is so effective because while you take out 1 person from the game completely, you've made the game much more difficult and less likely to win for the other 3 players, and much easier for yourself. I don't understand this mentality behind, "Yeah, it sucks for that 1 person, but do gens and you will be fine" When if it were truly that simple, then it wouldn't be as successful as it is at winning games (as in 3k-4k) so we wouldn't see it as often. And that's simply not the case.
It is successful because it doesn't just suck for that one person it sucks for the entire team- and that's the point. The killer wants to win and making the game as difficult as possible for survivors via tunneling is the easiest way to do it.
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I also have to do gens and bring a super medkit.
There's only so many hits I can take for them though.
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That's true, and I've heard many times that the solution should be some kind of incentive to make doing something different rather than tunneling. Every time, the survivors say, ``Killers don't need buffs, just nerf them.''
What if flashlights and flash grenades were taken away from the survivors? They will all try to go down only under the pallet. What if we lose the means to seal off gen for the killer? There will be more tunneling. There is no material that can deny that.
What is the killer's reward for letting an unhooked survivor escape? That's what everyone needs to think about.
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Absolutely, I agree. Right now the killer doesn't have enough incentives to go out of their way NOT to tunnel. And I don't belive that BP isn't enough either. I don't think killers need to be nerfed, but tunneling should no longer be the most optimal way to win. I think that gen speeds should reflect tunneling. If a survivor has been hooked consecutively, gens get a repair speed buff. If hooks are spread between survivors, gens get a repair slowdown. Both stack, so if the killer has 3 hooks by tunneling someone out completely, that's 3 whole stacks of a repair speed buff, making them go faster. If the killer gets 3 hooks by different survivors, that's also 3 whole stacks, slowing down gens. This doesn't take the killers ability to tunnel away, but it is no longer the best way to win, and it gives all survivors a chance to actually play in the game.
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*BP isn't enough in my op, sorry weird wording I did there lol
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Wow. I'd actually like to see how this works out lol. A solution to experiment with that seems like a good idea. I never thought I'd see the day, forums! <3
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If you complain about tunneling, you're bad at looping, and need to get good.
If you complain about genrushing, you're bad at chases, and need to get good (unless you got destroyed by a 4-man sweat squad, it happens).
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Welp I guess I'm that exemption because I'm on here and I'm a lousy killer, alright surv kinda player! 😂🤣
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don't lie to me.... i know your high mmr too!!!!!!!
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You mitigate the imbalanced skill levels of the survs by dealing with the backfill problem, which means dealing with lobby shopping/dodging, which results in stricter MMR.
But I see no decent fix for it that doesn't come down hard on dodging with a very heavy hand. And the veteran players always hate the stricter MMRs because it consistently put the sweats up against the sweats.
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It's not that simple.
Most of the surv players are not too good at game sense, looping, or map awareness. And never will be. This requires hours and hours of gameplay, and the vast majority don't put in anywhere near the consistent time to just be an ok surv. You're talking about the good to very good survs, which are at best 10% of the total. And this is even more true for being a skilled killer, as it takes even longer to "get gud". But it's that middle unskilled mass of players they tend to balance around first.
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Man, imagine if BHVR pinpointed this system by having 90% success of matching killers and survivors that both want to sweat/win. What a wonderful world that would be.
Would that be fine for all those who want to sweat? I would think so, right? No way they'd want to sweat against a weaker opponent... that would just make them a joke of a player, right? Hmm.
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I mean if you're the first survivor that the killer finds and he decides to tunnel you, it doesn't matter if you last really long in chase, you're usually going to be killed before the gens all get done and you can escape. Yes, lasting a long time can give your teammates a better chance to all get out but for the one player getting tunneled that doesn't really matter. They're being forced into back-to-back chases with no time to do anything else and especially if they're in solo queue, they don't even know their teammates so it doesn't reduce the sting of having their game 'ruined'.
Also, in solo queue at least, you can last ages in chase and your teammates may just not be doing gens efficiently and thus when you do eventually die, the killer is likely still gonna have plenty of time to get a 3k or 4k.
Unless there's a big disparity between skill levels, if the killer wants to, they can tunnel someone and guarentee they die and there isn't anything you can do about it.
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Very well said. If only others could think outside their own universe and have some empathy. We're all gamers. Unite, not fight!
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