The Pale Rose (Backwater Swamp)
We'd like to know what you think about the Pale Rose map, part of the Backwater Swamp realm. Please leave any feedback you have concerning this map as a comment on this thread. Your feedback can be as brief or detailed as you'd like!
The Pale Rose (Backwater Swamp) 459 votes
Comments
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I really like this map. It has some cool loops like the two boats and it looks amazing. It‘s nice to have a map, which isn‘t just flat like every other one and the tall grass is very cool to hide.
The map is a bit too small in my opinion and there are a lot of dead zones.
Please don‘t change the layout of the maps too much, only some parts if you change it.
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Dock can still spawn old jungle gym with 2 windows which is weird. (Tbf im not sure if this was changed)
Other than that, i feel like its in good spot
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Short killers like Chucky, that feel absolutely miserable to play on this map, because he's shorter than the tall grass, and there is A LOT OF TALL GRASS in the swamp maps.
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sooo many deadzones, weird little things you get stuck on, too much grass, if rng is bad you barely have any loops. But main buildings are mostly fine
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Too much RNG dependant, its not survivor or killer sided, its RNG sided. You can get something with miles of deadzones where killers can have a feast, or ten thousand pallets one next to the other and its a survivor playground. There are a few rng map dependants but this one feels as one of the worst, I hope it gets improved sometime in the near future, but I have my expectations very low, on the basement next to the hooks.
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Sometimes the middle can spawn no fillers and that makes traversing the map while in chase not a viable option, forcing survivors to stay at the same loops and holding W if hit (very boring for both sides). The map having slopes make some killers unviable and some too strong
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Needs a visual rework, just like the other maps
It's not a pretty map, but it has a concept with interesting loops
I would keep both boats as is but update the other loops like the pier.
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Again, heavily RNG dependent. Which "side" it is is dependent on RNG. Mid map can just be a complete dead zone or you can get some decent RNG with main into log and into some solid fillers. I do enjoy the main a lot when the RNG suits it. The mini boat window as Trapper can't be trapped on the outer side which frustrates me every single time I play this map as him.
Post edited by drwilburdaffodil on2 -
i hate playing on this realm as survivor and killer. we all know about those handful of guaranteed totem spawns, but if a killer hex doesn't spawn in one of those 2-3 locations it'll spawn in the farthest corner of the map and no one will ever cleanse it. main building is fine but the dock is weird and doesn't add much to gameplay, i feel like chases here typically don't last long at all. the strength of the main building should be lowered, and the safety that you take from the main building should be put into other areas of the map.
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It's so easy to get rid of resources in first 3-4 minutes as a killer, i rarely lose here. Also there should be more lockers, probably one of the worst map for the killers who rely on it.
Upd: it also has stupid spawn, where shack window spawns not far from a lying tree window, and you can easily win 2 minutes just by pressing spacebar, even bamboozle can't do anything with it.
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Dislike playing the map as killer. terrible map for leatherface with windows everywhere. main boat is annoying with safe pallets.
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It is a map with pretty hefty RNG, especially on Steam Boat.
The downstairs have 3 spots to have a Pallet. 2 of them are very inside of it and are relatively fine. However, the last one is a god Pallet spawn so go figure. The upstairs part is alright I guess, although the parts with roof are a deadzone to Skull Merchant's Drones.
The Shrimp Boat is pretty awkward to move around, even though it has pretty weak window. It's more of a navigational problem.
Already shared problems with Pier in Grim Pantry's comment so I won't repeat myself here.
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The Pale Rose is one of the most inconsistent maps in the game, stating which role it favors is not an easy task due to how radical it gets from one trial to another. On top of everything it suffers from the obsolete design of its realm, Backwater Swamp, which is yet to receive a graphical rework.
When it comes to the generators, the expanded size from the slopes at the edge of the map can be utilized by the spawned generators to erratically widen the areas to defend / repair at, which usually favors survivors, but at the same time, depending on how the generators spawn, it can backfire and allow the killer to defend a territory that envolves 3-4 generators and that is particularly hard to contest for the survivors (since 1 gen will be at the edge of the map and they won't be able to go through to repair it with the killer around).
When it comes to safety, the main building is both strong, interesting and has consistent pallets & windows (with some variability), yet there is a factor that is purely additive and random, that being a log with a vault that may or may not spawn outside of the boat but still inside its tile terrain. The shrimp boat landmark is also consistent and doesnt stand out too much, the real problems are found within the rest of the map (with the exception of the shack).
The filler loops are quite strong but their generation is heavily inconsistent to the point where in one trial you can have a middle of the map that is extremely barren and devoid of resources and in another trial you can find several connected safe loops. As of recent changes, the type of fillers that you can find in certain areas of the map (like the middle) has increased, not without weird occurrances like filler loops spawning 2 pallets in 1 tile.
The slope-expanded terrain at the edge of the map doesn't spawn any loops other than in the corners, which may or may not spawn a characteristic log window loop. The corners adjacent to shack can also spawn pallets at rock-tree loops. The slopes around shack (not in edge map) can randomly spawn strong filler loops that support the shack itself but the slope between shack and the shrimp boat is always a deadzone.
There is only 1 mazetile which is the most extreme display of inconsistent strength in the mazetiles of a map since you can have the strongest or the weakest and there is no room to smooth the discrepancy since there are no other mazetiles. The pier landmark is an even greater source of variable strength, since its 3 different versions differ a lot from each other and they do not provide consistent resources (depending on the type that includes amount and / or quality of the pallets).
The realm itself needs its graphic update, if that includes toning down the slopes and therefore normalizing the realm I guess is not up to the community to decide.
As for what The Pale Rose needs specifically, the inconsistency in resources is clearly an issue to target.
Post edited by AMGC on12 -
I dont think this map favors killers or survivors-- its just all around outdated and feels really bad to play.
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The needs an graphic overhaul, there are a lot od dead zones, the more the pallets get removed during the match the bigger thry become.
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The Pale Rose is a massive mix bag for me on one hand it's not good for killer and it's not good for survivor either deadzones or no deadzones and the docks has such an awkward RNG and same thing with Grim pantry
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The Pale Rose is a strange map in that while it's never enjoyable to play on its also doesn't favor one side over the other, at least not match to match. Instead it's a map of intense variability where gen location, filler pallet spawns (especially of the window log variety), and what version of the pier spawns in will dictate what side the map favors.
Those are the issues that plague the map for everyone, but additional issues exist for killers whose powers interact poorly with elevation changes (pyramid head, the artist, twins, and to a lesser extent Billy, Blight, and Demogorgon.) Those killers have to deal with an incredibly inconsistent map both power wise, and in terms of the map making their power inconsistent (or in some cases just consistently bad.)
I don't think think that current Pale Rose can be salvaged and maintain its identity. I think it's a map, and realm, that needs a full rework. A rework could give the map a more interesting shape, colour palette, main building and landmarks, and most importantly fix the inconsistencies in map strength.
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Pretty unfun map to play, mainly due to RNG. Sometimes the entire middle area is empty, sometimes there are multiple filler loops. Sometimes you get a poglog next to shack. Gen distribution is mostly okay. Killer prop logic is absolutely not okay. There are some extremely awful spawns for plague fountains, jigsaw boxes, the hatch, etc. The elevation on this map is also extremely not on okay on killers like artist and nemesis.
I don't mind the main building that much, it's pretty safe until the pallets are gone. The small boat has some bad collision, particularly when survivors are working on a gen, it blocks the path of anyone trying to pass.
Overall, this map is in desperate need of an overhaul to modernize it and make it smaller
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It’s an ok map. More locker locations and a visual update will fix it right up.
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This map has generators on the literal edge wall. It also has the boat which has one guaranteed god pallets and a rng chance of having two. The dock can also waste a lot of time with the jungle gym at the bottom of it. And shack leads into a strong pallet too. Not to mention it has two god log tiles on it. One spawns next to shack!
This map is ridiculously hard to win on without heavy strategy from the get go.
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Needs more lockers for dredge as does every map. It depends a lot on spawn locations of gens. The spawn of a gen against an outer wall should not happen...but then again the hatch can spawn there too on this map.
Biggest issue with swamp is all the grass. Blocks scratch marks and basic line of sight for killers
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For me personally, I love the feature of the Boat Horn once that generator completes. I wish more maps would have such memorable Generators
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Less massive than the other one, less atrocious setups, but still pretty massive, the hatch spawns suck but there aren't too many pallets, so as long as you are running a mobility or slowdown killer (for me at 82h FTP that is Wraith, Billy and Legion) the majority of the issues are not noticeable. The RNG sucks and would suck more if I was playing at a higher skill level where the difference between piers and mazes is more pronounced. The RNG is quite crazy and while I haven't had too bad experiences here, it's only a matter of time. Also a rare map with Grass and slopes, which favor trapper. Prop killers though I'm told suffer badly in this realm. I woudl NOT like to play dredge here. Much more balanced than the other one, and very unique, but I wish it was a bit better laid out. It's balanced because it sucks for both, I reckon, but better for killer than the other one.
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"Look who's ######### in the tall grass? " - Ash Williams
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Similar thoughts on Pantry, but I actually don't hate this map. Size feels nice, and the loops don't feel ridiculous. Maybe just adjust hook spawns for the realm and I think it'll be fine. I know some people say that the map needs a visual rework and think it looks ugly, but personally I actually kinda like that it is. Plus, based on how much harder it is to see on some maps that have gotten a visual rework (autohaven), I'd rather not.
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can spawn disgusting 3 gens with one in a literal corner of the map, but otherwise i like it.
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I wish the Pale rose was more in the middle of the map. But everything else considered... I like this map.
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Looking forward to the Realm Beyond rework on Swamp maps! (After that, can you start the next realm beyond where you adjust fog, lighting, atmosphere on all maps??)
Pale Rose as a map is okay, doesn’t favor one side too much I guess. Main being a ship with the horn on gen completion is nice! It’s missing some more wet/slimy/grimy look in general.
edges and corners feel weird with the spawns but I do like the different levels on swamp map so that the map doesn’t feel like a literal plane and a bit more natural
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The size is good but the rng can be extremely strong on both sides, the log loops should be more in the middle, not next to shack cuz that creates an extremely strong loop that not even bamboozle can help with, please if you do anything with this map keep the logs away from shack, and honestly the different elevations are a bit weird to play on sometimes, and hook spawns can make it easy for survivors to just run to a corner with boil over, so more hooks around the edges would be nice, and obviously better graphics would be nice but that’s not a super important issue to me, it’s mainly the logs spawning near shack and deadzones in the middle
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A lot of what I posted about Grim Pantry regarding edge-map totem spawns and generators, visual design, and elevation changes also applies to this map, so I'll keep this post a bit shorter.
Overall, I don't feel like Pale Rose favors either side, and this map is better than Grim Pantry overall. The big issue with this map is just how RNG-prone it is. The center area can have plenty of resources for survivors, or have very little to work with. The jungle gym in the corner can be really strong, or it can be one of the weakest kinds and it's the only one on the map so there aren't other jungle gyms elsewhere that make up for that area being strong or weak.
This map could also use a few more lockers in the areas that don't have them.
Additionally (and this applies to Grim Pantry too, I forgot to mention it for that map) having killer objects like Plague fountains in the corners/edges of the map is just awful.
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Pretty much agree its Rng dependent also the only realm that hasn't gotten a graphic update in 7+ years
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The map is one of those that combines massive dead zones with quite busted structures... You usually have very few pallets, however you have the boat, which is probably one of the strongest structures in the game, in combination with with some pog logs that can be used for some time, but besides those, the smaller boat and the dock the rest of the map just feels empty, sure there are some pallets here and there, but you will chew through them rather fast, as the killer most of the time will just abandon chase when you reach the big boat because of how strong it is, therefore drying out the middle area and leaving it to be a big dead zones... This results in even more ore running which only works against lower mobility killers.
I would say the map needs some windows in the middles so you don't have a complete dead zone there and maybe a re balance of the big boat, so it is playable and not a complete waste of time for the killer.
I still gave it a balanced, depending on the playstyle...as killer you can hold a 3 Gen in the dried out area and as survivor you can always run to the boat or the dock if the killer allows it... So depending on how the game goes it can go both ways.
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Very similar problems to Grim Pantry, as the middle is often empty and the map still follows the old spawn logic from before its size was rediced in Sep 2018. I think this one is slightly worse for killer, because the ship is a very strong loop.
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this map is outdated, its unevenness make artist useless. Its objects make nemesis zombies useless cause they stuck on everything. Need rework ASAP
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Generally fine and balanced. I think Crows need to spawn closer to the ground however, many are perched in trees and don't reliably give off notifications. The pier can occasionally spawn strong loops with tiles chaining to nearby pallets, so if the pier is reduced in strength the map would benefit from an extra gym tile added.
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This map is, in my opinion, one of the most rng-affected maps in the entire game.
I can't say it favors Killers because most killers (not counting the ones that either have insane mobility or ignore pallets), depending on pallet rng, will struggle if the map decides that theres 10 pallets mere meters from each other, each of them safe. Not to mention main building being strong and some older loops still being present in this map and tall grass creating good hiding spots in plain sight.
Yet I also can't say it's really Survivor-sided because, depending on rng, almost the entire middle area can be a deadzone and it's one of the strongest maps for totems since most are actually well-hidden and/or in a far corner which greatly reduces the chance of a potential Hex totem to be cleansed. Not to mention the abundant tall grass makes some Killers stronger than they are in other maps (Trapper, Hag, Chucky, Skull Merchant to some extent etc.).
I'd say it's mostly balanced but rng can have slightly more effect on Killers than Survivors and weaker/M1 Killers can have some serious trouble in main building and tall grass.
Quite frankly it mostly just needs a bit of tall-grass-trimming and more spread out tiles to really be balanced. Also a bit of a visual makeover to follow the other realms would be nice.
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Rng on the filler pallets behind the boat and shack, and the tile across from the two boats completely decide if this map is gonna be heavily killer sided
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Strange pallet rng can create huge deadzones in the centre of the map which is a pain
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It has both good and bad places around the map for either side. RNG can also affect it pretty heavily, but overall I'd say its fairly balanced.
The elevation changes and inconsistent collision can make this map pretty miserable for some killers though.
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This map and realm needs a graphic update to finish the Realm Beyond update. This map in terms of gameplay can go either way depending on the rng. It has some of my favorite spawning structures that I wish spawned in other realms, the PogLog. Similar to the other swamp map I feel that the outside rim of the map needs to be made more interactive instead of being a wasted opportunity for purely hiding or running to a corner to die in.
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Pantry and Pale Rose suffer from a lot of similar issues, so I'm gonna copy-paste the first part of my thoughts in both threads.
The middles of these maps are way too open and filled with trash tiles, while the edges of the map have all of the playable tiles, including the dreaded pog log (I would consider the pog log to singlehandedly be one of Swamp's larger problems, btw). This means that gens around the edges of the map tend to be pretty safe while gens around the middle of the map tend to be very unsafe. And that encourages the killer to play around boring 3-gens.
Docks can be a little bit strong, but they can feel really weak just as often, and I don't think they're much of an issue. However, I can say that it should not be possible for 2 gens to spawn on top of the same dock. I've seen that happen multiple times and it's horrible.
In addition to this, Swamp is ugly as sin, being one of the only old realms in the game (or maybe the only one? I've lost track, come to think of it) that still has not received a visual overhaul.
Also, the fact that objects and normal tiles can spawn so close to the walls of these maps creates a number of weird issues with stuff like hook generation and finding hatch.
For thoughts about Pale Rose in particular:
Main building is alright. It has some pretty unique gameplay dynamics, and I don't think it's disproportionately strong or weak.
The smaller boat is also pretty neat, though I wouldn't mind if the front part were made a bit roomier, as it's pretty common to be repairing it with someone else, have the killer start approaching, and then lose a bunch of time that would've been spent running because you and the other survivor were accidentally bodyblocking each other.
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This map playing shorter killers is horrible. Besides that It's all luck based.
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I think the main problems with the swamp maps will be addressed in the rework coming. The current issues include sometimes the center of the map being dead with no resources, and other times having like 4-5 filler pallets. The docks can spawn setups that are way too safe like 3 windows and 2 pallets. I think the gens being against the walls of the map is a good idea for other maps to adopt to help stop right gen spawn situations , but the hooks against the wall are too easy to block to prevent a save. Also the maps are just ugly and outdated now. Hopefully they look nice with the rework coming soon TM…
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Maps way too big just in general waste a lot of time as killer who doesn't have mobility or teleporting power I think the map just needs to be toned down a little
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As with the other swamp maps the problems are hatch placement, the darkness and the amount/color/height of clutter and props.
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I don’t remember which version of backwater swamp it is, but there is a small building near main building that when you down somebody inside that little building that has the pallet directly above you upstairs, there’s no way to get out of that building to go hook the survivor especially if you’re downstairs.
The generator has to be completed for any of the metal doors to open up. so it’s really annoying if someone has boil over in there and you go to pick the survivor up but then you have to walk all the way upstairs if you can get around all the crap in your way and fall off the side of the building to put them on the hook but of course they’re going to get out so the other choices go down the backside of the ramp and go around the building building to hook them but the time you do that they’re out too.
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As blight this map is practically unplayable cause like 2 trees have collision and nothing else.
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Backwater Swamp has the WORST collision and the WORST hook spawns of all game (specialyl white hooks). Outside of this, i think the Pale Rose is pretty fine.
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Honestly this map is fair for both sides. However sometimes i am certain the hatch just doesn't spawn at all on this map.
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My opinions for this map are similar to my opinion on the piers. The map is too stealth heavy and some spawns for hooks and hatch are crazy.
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