When can we expect a re-re-work of Skull Merchant?
Hello, simple question. When?
Comments
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Don't hold your breath.
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Honestly she needs to be pushed to the top of the priority list. It sucks because other kills (like Twins and Freddy) have been waiting so long, but she's literally impossible to play against in solo queue. I have not played a match against her without a suicide/DC for months now. Every time I see her I play a little game with myself where I guess how long it'll take before someone quits the match.
Today I got to 34 seconds lol
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This would be a re-re-re-work. I have my doubts they'll put any more work into her in the foreseeable future. They already reworked her twice and she's still awful. But at this point, it doesn't matter how much they change her power, we will still hate her.
To fix Skull Merchant they would need to make some excessive changes to the concept of her power and probably every other part of her kit as well.
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Im not opposed to another rework, but I actually think shes kinda okay right now, other killers deserve priority imo rn
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would need to make some excessive changes to the concept of her power and probably every other part of her kit as well.
I really wish they'd just do what's necessary and rework her from the ground up. The half-hearted reworks we keep getting are just a waste of developer time. We're on like her fourth iteration and she's still miserable.
I've been saying since she first came to the Tools of Torment PTB that she needs scrapped and redone. But like you said, I doubt they'll actually ever fix her.
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Legion is a prime example that after a proper rework, the community would accept or even like a certaint killer. They just messed up now twice (thanks for correcting me, it would be indeed a re-re-rework). Time to make it right.
Agreed. SM is misserable to play against and i dont even care what anyone else says about her, which is really rare. She feels exactly like the old Legion. Only hate for that killer, sorry.
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It is understandable that Freddy and Twins also need a rework, but they cant let her that way much longer. The killrate is probably now 70-75% and only god nows how crazy the DC rate is.
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Legion is a prime example that after a proper rework, the community would accept or even like a certaint killer.
But that takes time. Remember how players would still DC against Legion, even after the rework?
Unfortunately, some of the hatred towards Skull Merchant will never disappear, even if her power no longer causes an actual problem for the game. At least not in the same way as Old Legion or her original iteration.
As for the question, I doubt she will be getting changes anytime soon. If it happens it will be after the anniversary.
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I don’t care that everyone hates her, but hopefully she’s not touched again until after they rework Freddy to be more fun to play as and against. They need to give him some buffs and implement his old playstyle with his newer one. Then they need to buff Trapper a little more and improve Myers add-ons. Enough spending time on Darth Nea for the time being.
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Too busy buffing Huntress
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I love how almost every disscusion that involves SM makes her sound like God tier SS+ killer with no counterplay and Nurse and Blight are like summer wind compare to her.
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Well at least games are against her pretty fast. Survivors are running to hooks, so we all are moving to next game.
Even i don't give up, i can't stop my teammates.
She should get full rework, i don't think any changes will fix her hate.
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they might nerf her but i don't expect any rework. Probably by making the drone beams a slower like ptb state and double cooldown.
i think bvhr left 3 gens and impossible skill-check merchant for too long in the game.
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Yeah. Though Legion could be put off as a mistake. SM on the other hand can't. Not when she was reworked twice already. There is just too much baggage with this killer by now and it is clear to me, that the very concept of her power (stationary drones) is what's ruining her from a gameplay perspective.
They really messed up with this chapter. There are so many good ideas in there but most of them lead nowhere and the things that actually do would need to be twisted.
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Delete her. It's the only way.
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Before Legion's rework.
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we can't. de nada.
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Even with that 70% killrate, she's only 2% of games. BHVR's probably content to leave her as is for now and work on some of the other things they've been promising, like reworking Twins and Freddy.
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3gen got nerfed, Skully changed and i learned how to counter her drones with a lil crouching. And still in my head every Skully just wants solos to suffer (esp the ones with Penti builds). Idk really what it is about her, but i even prefer versing Nurse or Blight. If they're good, at least the match is over quicker.
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about a month ago i faced her 7 times in a row won 4 of em and i despised her with a passion in some map she can denies like almost halve of the map in term of looping 2 of my 4 games that i won vs her i looped her as greedily as possible because anything less she gets way to much control i proceed to loop her around for a good 4 min she give up on me goes for weak links and tunnels them to oblivion she so badly designed i can't blame ppl killing themself on hook when they face her
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A rework is pointless. No rework is going to get survivors to stop suiciding on hook against her. Her power could be completely cosmetic with no effects whatsoever and they'd still do it.
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Trust, until a rework or adjustment is in order, I will use my 4% chances against her. A luck mechanic thats in the game so I can't be reported for it for using it. Oh well.
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I don't think anything can be done about SM. I don't see a another rework doing anything about ppl giving up against her or stopping the hate she gets. From what I seen she is the most hated killer DBD ever seen. I hear old Legion was the same when they came out and it took time for ppl to stop hating them but I still see ppl who still hate legion. As someone who plays legion I see a lot of dcs and unhooks lol.
I just think SM will be hated no matter what her power is or how she plays. Her reputation is beyond fixing. Ppl will always associate her with 3 genning. Also I know ppl don't agree with this take but I still think there quite a few people out there who hate just because of her visual design and lore. I don't think I ever seen any other killer get so much hate threads that was purely focus on how they looked or their bg story. Personally I like her design and I don't mind her lore either. Sure it's not the best lore that was ever created but it's not as bad as ppl make it out to be. For me I mostly like it because she not made out to be some victim like all the other original female killers in the game. Most of the other female killers are more or less victims in their stories that lead to them being killers. Hag was kidnapped and locked up by cannibals, spirit was murdered by her father, artist was attacked by a corrupted group and had her hands cut off. All these women became killers to get revenge on someone meanwhile SM is a killer because she enjoys killing. I like that about her because it different.
Anyway sorry for getting off topic there. The matter of fact is that no matter what you do to SM, I truly believe it won't stop ppl going next against her.
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Of course it would be waay to optimistic to think this rework would happen tomorrow. But like @OnryosTapeRentals said, she needs to be top priority, even above your (rightfully) beloved Freddy 😉
Sad but true.
How is that? Nobody was talking about how strong or weak she is.
All we say is, that a re-re-rework needs to be asap for very obvious reasons. People will continue to DC, hook suicide and she will dominate way to hard because of that.
Killer mains should help with the outcry aswell. The faster she gets reworked, the faster her winrate will drop. And the faster the winrate drops, the quicker it makes sense to actually buff other killers.
Agree.
Maybe. Still better then leave her in the game.
Another great reason to rework her. Make her actually intersting to play. Also, the DC and suicide rate plus my empathy for other people hold me back to play Skull Merchant. For sure, others feel the same.
Again, not true. We know this for a fact with the old Legion. In the past, we had the exact same situation with them, and now, i can not remember a single game where someone was DCing against my Legion (or when i play survivor)
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How do you rework, that survivors simply refuse to play against her? As mentioned several times in this thread, everyone suicides/quits against her.
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What do you mean with that? Survivor suicide because she is miserable to play against.
Or is this a more practical quetion on how she should work so survivors would like her?
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At this point it doesn´t matter what the devs change on her. I bet the devs could completely remove her power and just make her a m1 killer with nothing else and survivors would still suicide against her.
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They won't rework but nerf to get down to 60% kill rate. They have spent enough time fixing a killer very few play.
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I doubt that would be the case. Legion is all that has to be said.
Survivors clearly dont DC because she is hated just for the sake of it, it is her power, and this can be fixed.
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They will dc against her no matter what. The ones who dc are conditioned to do so cause they think the game will be too hard. It’s bad mentality. It also makes it so balancing her is difficult. If she gets kills from suicide on hook versus actual sacrifices it just boosts her numbers. This leads to her having the higher than expected kill rate. This also then adds to the thought that she is impossible to play against.
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I doubt we'll get a rework. Maybe just some future tweaks.
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She doesn't need a rework, she just needs some slight tweaks.
People don't DC and hook suicide against her because there's actually a problem, it's inertia from when there was a reason to hate her. Now she's fixed, but her design is still the kind of thing people generally have less interest in + the complaints about her before snowballed out into complaining about things without any basis like her lore, so the fire keeps burning even after its fuel source was cut out.
What needs to happen is to wait. Make tweaks, sure, but like with Legion some time will be necessary for more reasonable players to catch on that there isn't actually a problem anymore and it's just a power they find a little less fun to verse on a personal level. Can't stop everyone from being a little baby, but hey, that does happen against every killer sometimes.
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Technically speaking, we did. First rework was just after release, even if it was a mini rework. Then she got her 2nd major rework.
So changing her again would be a re-re-rework.
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I am personally uncertain about why the Skull Merchant is disliked, as the reasons people give seem quite subjective. It would be helpful to identify specific traits of the Skull Merchant that we can analyze to understand the sources of dissatisfaction.
I understand you think shes is awful, but why is what is more valuable here.
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"The ones who dc are conditioned to do so cause they think the game will be too hard."
Incorrect. And once again someone does not understand the difference between "fun" and "difficulty". You dont see as many DCs against Nurse or Blight compared to Skull Merchant. And she is certainly weaker than those two.
If you make a survey and ask people if they think Nurse or Skull Merchant are stronger, the result would be clear. And if you make another Survey, which Killer is more fun to verse, people would say Nurse. (Even if she is such a broken Killer who should not exist in this game anymore like this)
And even IF her high Killrate is partially due to people giving up against her (even without that she would not have a low Killrate, because Skull Merchant is not a weak Killer overall), this should also be a sign that she needs changes.
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But without something concrete to point to, what kind of changes would you even make?
The only thing you could do is gut her to the point where nobody wants to use her and she's only slightly more than an M1 killer, which wouldn't be ideal for anyone.
There needs to be a clear, accurate consensus on what the problem is before anyone could expect the devs to act on it. Most feedback we see is either unclear, inaccurate, or both.
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It is true that there is less discussion on dc rates on almost any other killer. There is also not a stigma that people should just give up against them either.
What makes playing against SM not fun and fine into other more oppressive killers? If I had a guess it is due to the skill requirement on the other killers. A new player could use SM somewhat decently and not a Blight.
I would also guess that the people you would claim going against a Nurse is more fun have not gone against a SM or a good Nurse.
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That is entirely untrue, people usually give up immediately when i play legion.
Survivors will never like a killer if they have any kind of mechanic that forces them to do anything other than hold m1 on a generator as fast as possible. This is why people hate
- Stealth killers (can't stay injured)
- Skull merchant
- Legion (mending)
- Plague
- Spirit (cant stay injured)
- sadako
- Pig
etc.
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But you have a great concept for her, why not propose it again?
Maybe the feedback would provide some insight. It did happen with Freddy, ever since his horrible work.
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The problem I have personally with her is that she is insanely boring and a Killer which just boils down to "Leave the Loop or get Hit". And while there are several of those Killers, they are not even close to Skull Merchant. She just gets so much status effects which are built-in into her Kit, it is not even funny anymore.
She has Haste, Oblivious, Undetectable, Hindered, Deep Wound and Broken. Other Killers have to use Add Ons to have SOME of those status effects.
Plus, her Drones are also not really fun for either side. They also dont really give any interaction between Killer and Survivor, since both Killer and Survivor interact with the Drones, but not with each other directly.
Sabotaging Drones does not really do much, because you can only sabotage them if they are next to Gens, which directly gives information to her and lets her recall them.
And dont get me started on the fact that I can play perfectly against her and one of my teammates can give her Haste by getting a Clawtrap, which will make my Chase against her worse, even if I did not do any mistake or whatsoever.
The problem is that she should have gotten a complete Rework instead of trying to keep her with Drones. Because she was obviously planned as an Area Control-Killer, this was her initial concept. Yet, she was just horrible to verse and IMO also really boring to play (because, again, no direct interaction between Survivor and Killer outside of M1-gameplay). And because they decided to keep her Drones, they decided that she should get so much value out of them to drive the Killer away from using the power only as an Area Control, yet she can still do that AND has so much stuff overblown in her Basekit.
If I would rework her, I would have no idea what to do, but I would 100% remove Drones from her Kit and try to make something interesting. They should have done that from the start and just offer a Refund-Option for people who dislike her new power.
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This can make sense. The fact she can gain power from others is a frustrating mechanic. This is what drives many to play games hat are not reliant on a team. Some of her added effects are tied in with add ons but I agree the tweaking what she gets, when, and how could make a difference.
I would not mind if they shifted her towards more what I thought she was supposed to be as a Predator clone. Not sure if it would be better for here to have a bunch of alien weapons like a Predator, a stealth build, or both.
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See, this is what I mean. We've got a big dose of unclear, a big dose of inaccurate, and a pretty hefty dose of subjective to go along with it.
Things like saying she's boring, that there's no direct interaction between killer and survivor, and that she has a lot of status effects, this is not clear and constructive criticism. What makes her boring? What kind of direct interaction are you even looking for that other killers don't also lack? Why is it a problem that she has these status effects? Which would you remove, and would you replace them with anything? This isn't feedback any dev team could do much with on its own, at best they'd be taking a wild stab in the dark for what the problem even is, let alone the best solution for it.
Then we get to things like saying she boils down to just "leave a loop or get hit" and that she's the best at doing that, or saying that you can only hack drones if they're next to gens (...??), which are the things that are just wrong. She does more than just force survivors to leave loops, she's actually the worst at it since the threat is so delayed compared to the other killers that do it, and you can absolutely meaningfully hack drones that aren't next to gens, idk what that point actually means.
I would also personally say that Skull Merchant being considered an extremely powerful area-denial killer is also kind of a misconception, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it wrong. She's got some area denial, but she can't actually force you away from any area that she isn't also in, and even when she is there her power isn't an AOE blocking off whole loops anymore.
Sure, teammates feeding her power boosts is annoying. I would personally argue it's way more annoying when it happens against, say, Myers or Oni, but it is annoying. Not really "fully rework her from the ground up" annoying, though.
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SM is very problematic and it has nothing to do with her past. I am the living proof for that, since i dont even knew chess merchant neither did i play a single round against her due to inactivity.
The first video explains why she is hated so much:
The second video explains her "counterplay"
What i dislike about her the most is a combo of this:
- Stealth
- Random drone hits
- Drones slow you down while SM gets faster
- A million status effects
All at the same time basically.
It is strange how experiences are different. I play legion quite a bit, and DC's are close to never happening in my game. I say close, but if i am honest i can not remember a single DC i had since i came back about a year ago.
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Man, you really seem to just write to disagree.
But I will bite:
That there is no direct interaction between Killer and Survivor should be pretty clear, if you dont TRY to not understand it. As Skull Merchant, outside of standard M1-Killer gameplay, you dont interact with the Survivors AT ALL, you only interact with the Drones. And as Survivor, you also dont interact with the Skull Merchant (again, outside of standard M1-Killer gameplay), but only with her Drones.
Meanwhile, when you face other Killers which are even stronger than her like Billy, Wesker or Blight, you actually have to interact with their power and the Killer also can use the Power to directly interact with the Survivor. Juking a Billy/Wesker/Blight is fun and actual skill expression. Getting hits with Chainsaws, Bounds or Rushes is also actual skill expression. Placing a Drone on a Loop while just chasing the Survivor is not.
My point regarding only interacting with Drones while they are next to Gens - those are the most common places of Drones. Next to Gens and in Loops during the chase. And you cannot sabotage a Drone while in chase, this is just impossible and you know that.
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I'd say in probably 30-40% of the games i play as one of those killers, someone immediately gives up and kills themself on hook or DCs.
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How is not directly interacting with her due to the "m1" nature any different than:
- Trapper
- Myers
- Freddy
- Legion
- Plague (because lets be real nobody actually cleanses)
- Pinhead
- Sadako
You mention billy, but billy has 0 interaction outside of directly chasing a survivor, same with wesker and even blight. All they can do outside of chase you with that power is map traversal, which isn't really interacting with the survivor. In a chase, skull merchant is likely setting up drones, so again, you ARE interacting with her power there.
Yes, you can't sabo a drone in chase that is true, but you can avoid it, it spins around and is obvious to see where it is, and you can always "leave the loop" Putting drones near gens is actually bad, because they don't do anything if the survivor is repairing anymore, or did you not read her rework?
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If this is really the case i dont know what to say. Are you hard tunneling or camping or what may cause the problem? Like i said, i have almost never a DC on any killer, i dont know why. My region is europe. (PS. i am not playing SM and very little Knight, so far only prestige 3 just for the perks)
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I understand where the lack of interaction comes from, I was asking you why that's a problem and why it doesn't apply to other killers.
Not every killer has a damaging dash you have to juke, and not every killer should, that would be boring as hell. Other killers that you don't interact with directly beyond M1 gameplay (which... is interaction, you can't just completely discount it as a point of interaction) would include Trapper, Sadako, Hag, Pig (though that is about to change), Singularity...
Hell, even some killers that have some direct-dodge ability are primarily based around indirect interaction. Think Pinhead, Plague, Xenomorph, Pig post-changes... This is also where Skull Merchant sits, since there is some dodge-based element to playing against her.
It's not enough to just say that the drones are an object rather than a dash. You have to make the case for that being a problem, both on its own and comparative to the other killers that work this way.
As to the last point-- but the drones stay there, and a lot of Skull Merchants (especially the ones playing well) will put drones up ahead of time too. You go hack them then, or you hack them when they're close to gens, that's still direct interaction with the power and it's still direct counterplay.
It's also worth mentioning: While you can't hack a drone in chase, it's not as though there's no in-chase counterplay at all.
I don't write purely to disagree, I disagree with you for actual reasons.
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She’s in a fine state at the moment tbh. Survivors will always DC/Suicide against her due to the trauma of old skull merchant and being too stubborn to learn how to play against her
From a gameplay perspective she’s basically knight/clown who trades a bit of anti loop for a potential injury and tracking.
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I always had this great idea of the drones flying around the map to search for survivors
i know this would be a pain to code but that would make the drones actually cool
and for in-door maps they should be able to fly through walls with the burn effect slingers gun has when reeling survs through objects
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