More lgbt representation
So im pleased with Into The Rainbow charity event. But we need more representation for the characters in the game when other games like overwatch are doing it better. We only have one canon gay character. Even then, that character has been ignored with lack of new cosmetics and no mention, no tweet acknowledging him on pride month.
We need to do better. And its tiresome to see us move at a very slow pace.
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Its a thin line.
If they don't do enough, people will complain.
If they do to much, people will say they are ruining the game and "forcing it" on everyone.
I feel the devs have gone above and beyond to show they are allies and hate will not be tolerated. The LGBT movement had its own event and charms, which cant be said about other marginalized groups. I also do not think that sexuality plays a part in this game. It doesn't matter which characters identify as or who they are attracted to. The survivors are all working together to survive a killer, not go on a date.
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I agree. While I'd prefer a slow and methodical approach to representation, this is just a slog. David was a good step, but we cant just add one gay and act like we've hit our quota. Where are our lesbians? transgenders? bisexuals? theres so much more than just gay and we need to act like it. And what better time than pride month to boost our inclusivity? The pride charms are nice though. theres charms for stuff I didnt even know exists, saying this as someone in the community.
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Activision & Call of Duty be watchin'...
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Its a thin line, but we are miles away from it when we've got just one gay character in the game. I love the devs and what they've done but just one lgbtq character isnt enough. yeah we got an event and charms, but we only get one actual person to relate to in game.
Also by your logic, why would we need any representation for different cultures and ethnicities? Survivors are just trying to survive and escape, so having everyone be white and having like one black character would suffice. But I'd imagine you'd disagree there. Of course culture is far different from sexuality, but their representation is equally important. Zarina's struggle between loving and embracing her cultural heritage and leaving it behind so she could feel "normal" probably resonated with plenty of people.
Different cultures and ethnicities didnt get an event or charms because they got people, human people they could connect with. The lgbtq community got one dude. I appreciate him and love that theirs anything at all, but only a small subsect of the community can really feel represented in the game this way.
tl;dr yui is lesbian and you cannot change my mind
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But the problem I feel is with representation is. While it’s great to have it why not make original content with it and not retcon our characters.
representation doesn’t mean making past characters gay or a different color skin. Representation should be done to represent a characters culture or group. They make an original character that’s not so absurd and make it subtle
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100% right. There are definitely pros and cons to writing characters sexuality after their debut. One good thing is that they won't have any stereotypes, because they werent written with sexuality in mind. but that same strength is also a weakness, that lbgtq struggles and experiences wont be well represented if at all... because the character wasnt written for it.
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Example being David my friend didn’t like it cause they chose the one character that doesn’t look like a gay man he thought it would be Dwight or another character but not David. It feels they just retconned his story just to say he was gay all along! It’s like what happened to Ice man in X-Men
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I mean, if you want character from LQB, then it's only bio issue, which I think doesn't really matter to most people, so sure.
T character is whole different topic unless you want just bio fix too. Those are high minority (not popular minority) and BHVR want to sell chapter/skins. Basically it would piss off more people than amount of players who buy it.
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For the majority of Overwatch's existence the game only had 2 lgbt characters that were made so years after the game released. You wouldn't even know it unless you heard about it outside of the game. It took 7 years for them to do what they did this year so I highly doubt doing this stuff in their game was on the top of their priority list.
I don't think they were expecting or were prepared for the amount of backlash they got and are still getting over that. If video game companies would focus on their product rather than activism then these things wouldn't happen.
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Honestly, LGBTQ+ killer could have some interesting lore, but it may also be extremely hard/dangerous to write up...
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yeah lets leave the representation to the survivor side... much less... err... treacherous.
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The game is receiving terrible feedback about the latest chapters, BHVR is pressured to try and improve the game status, and adding LGBTQ+ characters is most certainly their least worry out of a huge checklist.
I'm not really sure what validation you get from having a video game character represent something, there are no Muslim/arab survivors but I don't think anyone is deeply offended or annoyed by that, whilst it would be cool, you don't necessarily have to take it for granted, it's a horror game and they have features and stuff to add, tons of bugs to fix.
"no tweet acknowledging him on pride month" There was a whole event/stream made for pride month, acknowledging an LGBTQ+ game character is just weird, no?
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That's entirely the point. To dispel stereotypes, show that not every gay person is flaming, that people you know can be gay, and that gay people can have histories.
A new character that's 'made to be gay' would be just that, the token gay character, their whole existence would revolve around their sexuality. David was absolutely a great choice for LGBT+ inclusion.
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Disclaimer: the following is not a generalisation about the lbgt community.
Im pretty sure there would be shitstorms if the "wrong" person gets retconned or a newly introduced lbgt character is "bad" representation.
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1: There are many characters in the game who have uncertain sexuality. TBH I thought they would pick Ace as a gay character and not David. Just use your imagination and create a head canon. Maybe Yui is lesbian? Who knows?
2: It would be better if they added a new character instead of retconing an existing one, because then some people will get mad that "their main got changed to XXX".
3: I just hope they do it right and not define a character by their sexuality.
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2 and 3 wouldn't be easy. If you make a new character LGBT, then they'll be defined by that characteristic. It's not retconning if that character was never defined as 'not-LGBT' to begin with, which is entirely the point, if you don't know the characters sexuality, don't assume it's heterosexual.
Pissing off the homophobes shouldn't be a concern with representation, that's kinda the whole point.
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Isn’t it canon that the game utilizes the multiverse for characters, and subsequently all characters are lesbian/gay/straight/transsexual /bisexual/queer/questioning/intersex/pansexual/two-spirited/asexual depending on the version you look at?
Hell isn’t all fanfic is canon, only being constrained by IRL IP rights should it try to expand into detestable areas? The Observers Tower is literally full of stories of alternate realities.
These are certainly things that could be explored in tome stories, likely not clinging too hard to the characters themselves, but moreso exploring the hardships and relatable experiences for persons of said sexualities.
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My thoughts exactly. But if people are gonna complain about anything and everything, might as well give them a good story to read first. A LGBTQ+ Killer could, lore-wise, be very interesting. We have killers who became the way they are through abuse, and we have killers who do it because it's fun.
Imagine if, rather than the stereotypical, the harassment got too much and they snapped story, it was instead the story is about them going from taking revenge and the power away from those who hate them to becoming what they fear. Where we see what was a person trying to be themselves and live a happy, accepted life, only for them to realise, they don't want to be accepted by them, they want to be feared.
A killer that doesn't recognise that they're too far gone to be forgiven for the slaughter, but rather thinks that they haven't gone far enough. A story that goes from Us VS Them, to Them Vs Me. They don't want to bring peace or love anymore, they are selfish, obsessive and devoid of empathy. And then the Entity comes in and gives them what they want. Freedom from the hate of others, a new playground of fear and death, hunting survivors in the fog and the only remnant of what they did in the real world, has left scars and nightmares, becoming a new age bogeyman.
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while from a writing standpoint it could be quite interesting, froma representation standpoint I dont think its a super good idea. I'd love to read a book about that concept, but portraying an lgbtq+ character as vengeful and murderous. its a good concept but for representation it wouldnt really work.
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I don't think people who claim the existence of LGBT representation is "forcing it" on everyone are worth listening to at all.
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Generally speaking the characterization of Killers is that they've fixated on something which holds them in a destructive cycle, for themselves, others, or both. Which, while individually gratifying, generally speaking isn't societally beneficial.
An LGBTQQIS2AP+ Killer that kills out of spite for being separated from society just reinforces the idea that they are separate from society, which, while that individual is given their backstory, what they represent is not separated from society. The thing is that the majority of people view things from a surface level, so they'll just latch onto "LGBTQQIS2AP+ is out to kill us". Even if taken light-heartedly, is ripe for subtle bias when spread across a wide audience.
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Just wanna ask, how do we know what each character's sexuality is? David has it in his lore, but the rest of the cast for the most part don't have anything to say one way or another, and I would argue they don't need to, as a person is not defined entirely by their sexuality.
I've always felt like making a big song and dance about such things is patronising and pandering. The true vision of acceptance is not to make a big deal about it.
David being gay is tasteful. It's a natural low key part of his character, not stamped with huge bells and whistles saying "by the way he's gay! Here's your gay character! We put one in!". He is a character in his own right first, the fact he is gay is inconsequential, which is when you're genuinely winning the inclusion battlefront.
If one starts adding characters obviously oriented one way or another just to tick a diversity box, then it's not inclusion anymore, it's pandering. A character must be a character in their own right, they should not be there just to meet the quota.
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“they chose a character that doesn't look like a gay man” is a very odd thing to say. please, think again about what you say, educate yourself and open your mind.
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Bravo!
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I'm wondering how the devs would handle a non-binary character.
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I will not give it a rest. No one especially a random on a forum is going to keep me quiet about the importance of having more than 1 representation. 1 black person isnt enough, 1 gay person isnt enough, one asian person isnt enough, 1 autistic person isnt enough etc. So no, i wont rest. Thank you
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I understand that 'for the greater purpose of representation', putting a spotlight of someone in the LGBTQ+ doing inhumane things is a negative thing, however, if we go off the assumption that people only look at things at a surface level, having only Survivors be represented this way leads a narrative that those in the LGBTQ+ are and can only be victims that do no wrong. That no matter what they do, they can only keep running.
I understand that representation in all aspects is important, but saying they can't be vindictive, vengeful or malicious just makes the narrative 'we can't be evil/bad', which then enforces the Us vs Them argument.
In the Netflix Resident Evil (God I hated this show), Evelyn Marcus, who was a Lesbian, was a major antagonist of the show. She was business focused and willing to kill both workers and her own son to save her own ass, not to mention her drugging her own wife so she wouldn't leave her. Evelyn was evil, she lacked basic empathy and was selfish to the point it destroyed those around her. Even though she was LGBTQ+, she didn't represent the whole movement, and having her be the way she was, was a new take on antagonists, as being LGBTQ+ is most commonly a trait found in the victims of stories. It showed that being a Lesbian or other doesn't free you from being a bad person. What makes you a bad person is you as a character. She wasn't defined by her sexuality, at a stretch, she showed that you can be more than your sexuality. Despite the show being god awful (Wesker looking like Blade comes to mind), Evelyn showed that your actions speak more about you as a person than your sex/gender/sexuality/etc.
Even Gus Fring from Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul is Gay, and he was a right piece of work.
The story I proposed, spins a tale of someone who, rather than trying to stop the cycle of hatred, is taken in by it and wants to control it. Why try and be better than them, when you can drag them screaming to hell? A take on 'the monster you created'. The idea being that, rather than judge someone on their identity/sex/gender/etc, you judge them on their actions, and a killer will always be a killer, regardless.
But if the overall community feel that having a killer be LGBTQ+, in any way, is an area that is too volatile to consider and aren't willing to take the risk, then fair enough. But that is my take, it could be narratively very interesting.
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What do you mean retconning ? Very few characters' sexuality is implied. If they suddenly made Felix, who literally has a wife, or Frank, who's dating Julie, canonically gay I would understand the argument but like ?? David wasn't retconned bc your friend thought he didn't "look gay" that's just bs.
Assuming every character is straight and then complaining about "retcon" when we learn they're actually LGBT+ is a you problem, just stop assuming everyone is het lol.
Also you can't have it both ways, you don't want previous characters to be LGBT+ so you want new ones to have their sexuality official the minute they release but also want it to be subtle ? It's really silly to believe we should 'warn' straight people and make sure they don't get their feelings hurt down the line when they learn a character they like was gay all along. Also with this approach everyone would complain that "we don't need to know that it's a horror game", "why don't you announce that straight characters are straight when you release them", "stop shoving it down our throat" and the like.
Unless a character is officially straight (and the large majority aren't) there's no such thing as "retconning" here, just people assuming wrong and getting upset bc for some oh so mysterious reason they don't want a character they like to be LGBT+.
For eg Yui never has any boyfriend or husband mentionned in her lore so if her next tome mentions a girlfriend it wouldn't be retconning anything, the same way it wouldn't be retcon for her to have a boyfriend even if many assume she's a lesbian.
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Well thats good for you. If its enough for you great. But dont diminish your fellow lgbt member's voice in wanting more. I dont approve of that. We get enough if that as it is regardless of where u are.
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And why exactly is the latter crowd's opinions worth listening to? Catering to people who find the existence of LGBT folks offensive stinks of appeasement more than anything else.
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Can you imagine getting chased by a Female Hillbilly or Nemesis or Freddie
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That's where writing flawed Survivors is important, EG: Yun-Jin Lee. It's not that Survivors are Good, and Killers are Bad, it's that Survivors are capable of moving on past negativity, and Killers let it seep into them.
Surface level, you're right, a PRIDEful Killer character can work, it's a game. The problem with your suggestion though is the motivation: a PRIDE character gets shunned and takes it out on, I would assume, non-PRIDE people regardless of their involvement, essentially becoming that which tormented them: hatred against those different from them.
You could say that the Killer is justified, and only Killed those that harmed them. But then they wouldn't be a Killer. They'd be a vigilante. A Killer character isn't just someone that simply killed someone, otherwise Bill Overbeck would be a great candidate. They're an embodiment of the darker sides of humanity we're all capable of, that can overcome us, and can be overcome with teamwork or determination.
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Yes, a completely separate game where all the characters are bisexual, including the playable character.
We are talking about cannon changes to DBD.
New characters? Awesome.
I just don't see changing already released characters to mean "representation".
The community will just call it pandering.
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I wouldn't say behavior needs to throw in more pride stuff just to keep up adding in pride stuff.
The small nods and they have and the character they made gay is all cool already for it. No need to continuously bring attention to it.
I think the pace they are doing is alright personally .
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Let's add some Rainbow Six devs on
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Actually there is good way to add LGBT+ killer.
They just can get Sleepaway Camp franchise. Killer is trans girl and i really liked all storyline she has. And plus , we need more slashers in DbD.
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New characters? Awesome.
I just don't see changing already released characters to mean "representation".
The community will just call it pandering.
The exact opposite is true, read back through the topic.
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The ice man situation was dumb. Ice man was only into women for 50 years since the 60s and all of the sudden he is gay because jean grey said so. Also his while character no is just him being gay. Back before the change ice man was just ice man. A fun character with cool powers. But they changed him and all he does is go to places and just says he is gay to every one. Its unfortunate because its always best in my opinion to make new characters and add inclusivity instead of taking away from established characters. The david one i was ok with because he had only really been in the game for 5 years i think and he they only established 1 prior relationship while iceman had been only with women since the first xmen book in the 60s. They showed it in the comics, movies and tvs shows. And they changed him just to be the gay guy basically.
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Honestly literally killing LGBT survivor doesn't seems very nice either lol
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Many gay men look just like David LOL; sexuality doesn't have a "look" and not all gay men are feminine.
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We are keep getting original chapters with garbage characters. I think it will be okey if they add another LGBT+ character, at least this will make some people happy.
Next 2 chapters are licensed. So most likely, there will not be content unless if they change existed character.
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That could be potentially awesome, skin-wise lots of possibility for different looks. Same with a trans character and rich story potential, like in the game Tell Me Why.
Representation is really hard to get right though*, and I don't want it to be a vector for harrassment like the Claudette mask.
* Look at the hatestorm that third episode of The Last of Us triggered, when you dare to depict two non-stereotypical gay men that challenge people's comfortable biases.
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As a gay individual myself, god I hate titles but this needs to be said.
Good for overwatch I guess? I mean no disrespect, however I will say this. It’s very clear how much DBD supports the lgbt community with everything that they do, it’s not a pressing matter to get more stuff.
Id rather them focus on the game more that needs help. Reevaluating maps, adjustments to perks that need help for survivor and killer, helping the survivor meta, balancing killers that are struggling, working on new maps, fixing killers that got reworks that took completely away from their original design. (Trickster, Sadako, Freddy…etc)
More gay content and representation can “come” ;) but I really think they have a lot of other task to consider first as priority.
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Ow didn't do it better they started with a cast of ~20 characters then overtime just slotted them into what representation they wanted at the time with no care for what the current characters lore, backstory, or interactions up to that point they just wanted a representation "win" some of the newer stuff is a bit better about it but frankly they stink at it and don't do it right.
Dbd on the other hand does it much better by grass roots building out a characters lore or making a new character that happens to be part of that representation rather what blizzard does of caricature representation with no thought behind it or complexity to the rest of the character, then retroactively change it or cover up what they initially were to make it seem like that was their plan all along.
Don't ask for it to be rapid fire because then it won't be done well which is worse than not doing it at all
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Well as a gay individual also, its not like the community is asking for too much or asking them to drop everything to fill in more lgbt characters. They can walk and chew gum at the same time and still bring out fresh new content/fix their game. End of the day, its still a gaming company with separate departments that focuses on different issues. As it will always be eye opening, regardless of where you stand, that bhvr who supports the lgbt community so vigorously with drag stream representation, lgbt charity events etc. Yet, they only have the courage to have 2 lgbt original characters currently. And we have more characters than overwatch.
And the reason i compare them to overwatch, even tho different genre of games, is only because they both started around the same time, most of our players actually play ow as well, and even fortnite. Yet, they have more lgbt characters than us
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Ur not making any sense. Because the claim that you are using against ow is the same bhvr has done with david and susie. Both old characters that have recently been updated on their sexuality with more lore via a tome and a recent comic respectively.
I personally dont care if a company does it to see it as a "win." All i care about is how they deliver the character's sexuality, be it a new or old character. And how well they treat their own characters after the fact. And both companies have done well in delivering the lore baclground. But my issue is that bhvr hasnt done ENOUGH, since they have a history of doing so much for the lgbt community and how many lgbt players make up the playerbase.
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They have separate teams for writing character backstories/lore and game design. Adding more queer representation isn't going to slow down anything you've mentioned, they're different parts of the overall dbd team.
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Please keep the conversation on topic and constructive. Thank you!
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Well guess we don't see eye to eye on it since ive seen what OW has done over the past 8 years and don't think they did a good job and think what dbd has done has been slower but much better. Its weird having characters flirt and talk about how they used to be together for years to throw it all away for a PR win
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