Skull Merchant and unavoidable hits.

mikewelk
mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

I just don't understand how people enjoy facing Skull Merchant when stuff like this happens so often. They got outplayed at the most unsafe loop on RPD and got rewarded for it??? Yes, the survivor could've crouched, but they would have got M1'd anyways since you need to compensate for server lag and crouch for longer than necessary due to it. Can you even argue that it's avoidable?

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Comments

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    When her first rework was being speculated I said that the nature of her power didn't allow for proper balancing but apparently it did so here we are.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,489
    edited March 8

    How does crouching there do anything different other than standing still there? Its the same thing. He got the pallet stun.

    But i edited my post there and it looks like he got it at the tail end and the standing still actually didn't add stacks. The problem was this:


    "Also further, it looks like this guy already has 2 stacks. So this isn't a free health state, this is a "free" health state that has built up over the course of that same chase, or a previous one where they already received a few stacks. Like, this would be thinking that wesker gets a "free down" because you are fully infected. When there was obviously multiple misplays that happened that resulted in you getting fully infected."


    So again, this wasn't a "free health state" this was a health state that the SM has worked on getting previously through a previous chase or earlier in the same chase.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,489

    I explained how its avoidable. The survivor there already had 2 stacks. So they already were building up to this hit. Yes, in that single instance, getting a single stack there was unavoidable, but that's still 1/3 of the stacks needed to get a hit.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,489

    Yes, but it still wasn't FREE which is what you are implying. They had to work at those first stacks to get them to the point where they got the hit. How long did that take? Probably a non-zero amount of time where the survivor was being chased.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    The scans lock on permanently until you get M1'd. For all we know, the Meg could've been on the gen where the stairs lead up to and ran to that loop with two lock ons from previous encounters. They can't do anything to get rid of those. Let's say she crouched at the doorway, she would still lose a ton of distance from the fact she has to guess if the beam has passed her (as it is not visible in the line form) and taking into account server lag just adds to it. Skull Merchant is a 4.6m/s killer unlike Huntress who is 4.4m/s.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
    edited March 8

    Drones in stealth mode accumulate a lot of tokens because of survivors running into them by accident because they don't see the scan lines. That does take zero effort.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,776

    First part is correct! She was scanned twice before this clip started, so when the Skull Merchant gets a claw trap out of this situation, she's being rewarded for that as well as the single scan shown in the clip.

    Second part is incorrect, you absolutely can tell if the beam has passed you. It's a little harder, and it involves keeping an eye on the drone, but with a combination of checking as you're approaching the door and timing it in your head, it's easily possible to know the beam's passed you. While you can't see the big glowy orange beams, you can see the lights on the drone itself. The beams start in a predictable position, they move at a predictable speed, and they move in a predictable direction. It might take a few tries before you get it down consistently, but you can know this kind of thing.

    Third part is irrelevant, Huntress wouldn't have to move in this situation so her speed doesn't matter.

    Finally, I want to highlight an implication you made in that second part: Let's say Meg does lose a ton of distance even though there's no guesswork involved. Then what? Does she... take an M1? Because that's preferable to getting hit by a claw trap, and actually the smart play in some scenarios against a few different killers.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    I don't think we'll see that happen anytime soon. Once people face more Skull Merchants as their pick-rate will most likely rise, I hope more recorded examples will come that make it harder to justify than to say "just crouch".

  • Huge_Bush
    Huge_Bush Member Posts: 5,402

    Some people are masochists. I believe there are those who like to face her but they’re probably something like 4 people out of the playerbase. Perhaps the same people who like to suffer while playing Twins.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    Well this was one of those situations and it seemed laughably easy and took very little skill. I don't see the skill aspect at all. Her counterplay is interactive for sure, doesn't make it good though.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    Yeah, it's hard to wrap my head around the idea of liking suffering - especially when it comes to a literal video game...

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,776

    It seemed that way because it looks like no attempt was made to counter the drone.

    Now, I'm not sure if this person does actually know how drones work and just mistimed it, which is easily possible, so I don't want to say for sure they were just ignoring the drone. I'm just saying that whatever the reason, the thing Skull Merchant was rewarded for here is a misplay on the survivor's side.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,776

    Oh, come on, man.

    That survivor standing still wasn't doing it to counter the drone, they were camping the pallet to drop it and get the stun. The point where they need to counter it is as they're running away- you can see they only get clipped just before they get out of the radius, so they crouch for a split second there and then keep running. That is what countering the drone in this situation would look like.

    This is agonising, the clip being posted shows the most cut-and-dry obvious scenario where crouching the drone is the absolute best call. You already have distance, the killer isn't closing that distance immediately because they just got stunned and they have to navigate around an object, and you're only in danger at the very edge of the radius so you only have to do it once in a position where you've already made distance so it's less damaging to you.

    Based purely on their movements - and again, I'm not psychic, they could have mistimed the rotation - it doesn't look like that survivor is paying any respect to the drone at all. If someone runs in a direct straight line against Huntress and gets downed, even after getting a stun on that killer, they're misplaying. It's the same here.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,489

    That's because you are talking a 10 second clip out of context. Look at all of the factors:


    • They already had 2 stacks, do you know how long it took or what was done to get those 2 stacks? No you don't
    • They were at one of the worst most unsafe pallets in the entire game, let alone the map.
      • Why is that pallet so bad? Because literally right next to it by the stairs, is probably the strongest pallet in the entire game, why didn't they drop that one?
      • Were they trying to save that god pallet? If so, they got outplayed here by getting to greedy.
      • Was that pallet already gone? If so they got outplayed here because they used that god pallet too early, or someone on their team did, or they ran to an area where they knew there wasn't a pallet.
    • The pallet that they were out would have been a "guaranteed health state" for probably 90% of the killer in the whole game.
    • The reality is, sometimes you got to take the hit, this a 1v4 game, not every situation is meant to have a counter to it. Sometimes the "counter" to a situation is to not put yourself in that situation to begin with.


    There is a difference between mechanical skill and strategic skill. Think like playing a fighting game. The clip you are looking at, is someone who is at half health, against someone with full meter, and knocked down in the corner. They guess the 50/50 wrong, and then lose the round, and then you are complaining that the 50/50 is OP. When the problem there wasn't the 50/50, it was they they failed multiple times. They:


    • Let their opponent build full meter
    • Got to half health
    • Got pushed into the corner
    • Got knocked down in the corner
    • Then lost the 50/50


    They failed multiple times to get themselves into a situation where their opponent would win.


    Or imagine chess, where you blunder your queen early, then complain about some move the other player did with their queen to win. The mistake wasn't "queen OP" it was that you lost your queen to begin with, and put yourself into that bad situation.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    They were standing still instead of moving from side to side to get the most reaction time to drop the pallet at the right time. That is her counterplay after all and notice how they didn't get scanned because it is counterplay and not the best thing to do but something you're forced to do?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,776

    Again, they were doing that because they were camping a pallet. If they weren't camping a pallet, it would've been a hilariously bad idea and nowhere close to real counterplay.

    The part that matters is if they avoided the beam as they left. After all, they're not being scanned while camping a pallet, so that part's irrelevant. The core question is: Did they take the steps to counter the power when that power is actually threatening them?

    The answer is no. They just ran in a straight line and didn't look like they were regarding the drone at all.

    I'll mention it again, because it's an important comparison. Imagine the following: Everything about this scenario is the same - the same loop, the same stun, the exact same pathing and actions from the survivor after the stun - but the killer is Huntress. What happens?

    Now do the same, but instead of replacing Merchant with Huntress, we make two changes: The killer is Trickster, and the survivor is one blade away from a health state. What happens?

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    We can assume those tokens were built passively by stealth drones as well which is the most likely scenario. They were at the most unsafe pallet probably because they had no time to react (possibly due to eight seconds of undetectable) and stair loop shouldn't be dropped at five gens since it's like the equivalent of shack pallet. Nevertheless, they got the stun with the pallet so this is all irrelevant.


    They couldn't do anything about the two lock on stacks, they didn't get pushed into a corner, and they didn't get knocked. Did you even watch the video?

  • FrenchBagels
    FrenchBagels Member Posts: 193

    What. She has at max three pools of corrupt regardless of whether they cleanse or not.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    The counterplay to Merchant is camping pallets and pre-dropping, something I believe you stated yourself. If it was a Huntress, you would still have a chance to dodge the hatchet, likewise with the Trickster and his knives.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,776
    edited March 9

    I don't remember saying that, I'm not sure what you're referring to? In any case, the counterplay to Skull Merchant is varied, but typically involves avoiding her drone's beams.

    Speaking of which: Remember, we're changing nothing about this clip for the thought experiment. If the survivor does exactly what they do in this clip, what happens?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,776
    edited March 9

    Oh, right, I do remember that now.

    That's kind of a different argument- I brought that up to say that if you reach the worst case scenario, there's still stuff you can do. It's not her main counterplay, it's just an option you have if you're in the worst case scenario of being claw trapped and getting Hindered. I also did not say Clown is better, I said Clown's numbers are higher, because they are.

    The argument was: If you can do it against Clown with higher numbers, you can do it against SM with lower numbers.

    Her main counterplay would of course be avoiding that outcome for as long as possible, which is why this clip is silly to use as evidence against her. None of her counterplay was actually used here.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669

    So standing still whilst in chase and in the drone's range isn't counterplay now?