Pain Res change?

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xEa
xEa Member Posts: 4,105
edited March 12 in Feedback and Suggestions

A simple and fair PR change:

  • Increase the number of Scourge hooks to 5.
  • Decrease the regression from 25% to 20%.

Perfect. No more annoying RNG for Killer and no more missing out on PR hooks. More ballanced out regression for survivor.

How about that?

Post edited by Rizzo on

Comments

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    My suggestion would not gut this perk by any means. Less frustrating for killer and survivor.

  • Optx
    Optx Member Posts: 50
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    Even accounting for the extra scourge hook, decreasing regression to 20% would significantly weaken the perk. Not that that's a bad thing.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,543
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    Yes, but people will still be complaining even if you give something fair or reasonable

  • MalekithHatesSnow
    MalekithHatesSnow Member Posts: 216
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    Your suggestion goes through weeks later you're making another suggestion because people are still complaining the perk encourages you to not to tunnel and actively rewards you for doing so and its being complained about

    I guarantee if you nerfed every single regression perk but left Oppression and people started running it people would start complaining

  • RFSa09
    RFSa09 Member Posts: 606
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    i don´t know how the 5% less would change my nemesis matches, but it looks good tbh

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    I dont think so. Look at noed. It used to be the most complained perk, and now it is barely a topic anymore.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,543
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    To each their own but we've still seen people complain about it, if not loudly as before. To us, it's more along the line of people have bigger targets to yip about. If those go down other things rose and this happens again and again like waves on a lake.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Bigger targets, yes. Because this game has a lot of targets. I dont see anything wrong with ballancing a perk. And just because players would complain about another one, we should not do it, even it is the correct thing to do?

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
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    They are simply saying no matter what you do or change, there will be people who will complain regardless, simply for the sake of complaining, because its all they know how to do.

    Its a strange change though. I don't think an extra hook is worth the trade as a survivor. Pain res, Pop, etc all have the 'This isn't fun, at all.' tag hanging off them, similar to BU+FTP, Tunneling, gen rushing, etc. In fact... wow, this game has a lot of things that just 'aren't fun,'

  • Snowbawlzzz
    Snowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,419
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    Why are people suddenly going after the generator damage perks when generator blocking is the meta?

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,543
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    Beginning to think your trying to read way to much into our words mate.

    Depending on why their complaining. Correct is also subjective for lots of people, hence why everyone whines.

  • Valuetown
    Valuetown Member Posts: 252
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    If everything else about the game stays the same (because I'd prefer to have other changes than what I'm about to suggest, but we can only expect so much) I'd rather have the scourge hook logic adjusted so that multiple scourges can't spawn right next to each other. Keep 4 scourge hooks, adjust spawn logic, and also make the regression 25% of current progress on the most progressed gen.

    For the spawn logic, make it so that when scourge hooks are selected, unless there are no other hooks available, prevent an additional hook from spawning within 32 meters of another. Killer carry speed is 92%, and at 16 seconds to carry, the killer can almost travel 59 meters in that time. It would help solve not having a scourge available at all parts of the map as killer, and it would also benefit sabo builds if a survivor so chose to run one, as sabo'ing a scourge would be an actual meaningful play, since another hook cannot spawn right next to the one that got sabo'd.

    For 25% regression of current as opposed to 25% regression of max, there is nothing more annoying on survivor than when the killer snowball starts because pain res exists and just carries the game for the killer. Once one person is hooked, the game essentially enters a standstill with pain res (and/or pop) in play. 25% of a gen is 22.5 seconds for one survivor. Once a survivor is hooked, another survivor is being chased, another survivor is getting the unhook, and that leaves only one survivor that can work on gens. In your average game of dbd, that next person being chased is going down within 30 seconds, and getting hooked on another scourge hook. Within that time, that one survivor has barely made any progress on the gen that was scourged initially, and guess what, it's getting scourged again, putting the gen progress right back to where it was after it was scourged initially. I personally don't think this is fun for anyone involved, killer or survivor.

    The survivor and killer experience is nose-diving, and I'd argue that this is one of the perks to blame. It's a band aid solution to bhvr's refusal to iterate on their base game mode, and the gen regression meta has always been the most stale experience I've ever had in any game. I've been a strong advocate of multiple win conditions for killer and survivor that don't involve hooks or escaping through exit gates, but considering PC doesn't have loadout previews in lobby after almost 7 and a half years, I'm not holding my breath that those changes are coming any time in the next decade.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Why does it matter that people complain about a perk? it is about fixing a perk for the better. For both sides.

    I would take that trade for Survivor and Killer. Way more ballanced and less frustrating for both in my opinion. And this without making the perk trash.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,543
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    Again... reading to much, we were (atleast us Rulebreakers) making a statement that has so far been proven wrong.

    If you wish us to talk about the change then we'd argue it doesn't completely solve the RNG of surge hooks. Example 3 in one corner 2 in another and 2 empty.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Number one problematic killer perk is GE. I have suggestions for that aswell, but for now, lets stick with PR.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
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    Bro, I'm telling you I understand what you're saying and doing. I am just iterating that regardless of how good a job you do at this, there's people who will NEVER be on board, simply because they just like being the 'other side'. Rarely do I feel people actually disagree on these forums. Arguing and such is just fun for some people. Not myself, but some.


    Keep on making suggestions! No harm no foul. :)

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    It will get changed without any question. Better you hope for a change like this then making it a trash perk as Devs often pull off.

    And before you start, i use PR every game. And yes, it defenitly needs those changes, objectivly speaking.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
    edited March 11
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    This happens with BHVR by default. Its like their developer manifest. Ofc it continues! :D


    edit: grammar

  • concubined
    concubined Member Posts: 140
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    I disagree, I believe the perk is in a healthy spot right now as far as the community’s standards and culture customs goes. You can’t keep procing it by one survivor anymore incentivizing not hooking the same survivor. And the only 4 uses of the perk has already done its damage to the perk, nerfing it to 20% would be too far unless you revert the previous changes to it only having 4 uses back to limitless.

    Please leave gen regression perks alone, last one killers got was call of brine and that was when I first downloaded the game and with each and every update without fail survivors have been receiving gen speed/progression perks. Slow down perks are very necessary in this current climate and higher mmr.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,130
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    If you are having survivors go down every 22.5 seconds, painres or no, you are gonna lose. You should still be able to outrepair the painres.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
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    Most complained about? I'm not so sure. I think there is a certain exhaustion perk that takes the crown. 😉

    NOED is still being complained about. Just not as much. I reckon this might have more to do with its pick rate and less with the nerf though.

  • Squippit
    Squippit Member Posts: 89
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    I'd rather just go back to the old version before it was buffed

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,251
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    Yeah I kind of wish the community would focus more on buffing all the other bad perks more.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Sure, DH aswell. Also underlines my point - DH is since the rework barely talked anymore. Here and there, but come on, i can remember the time where every day was a new "Nerf Noed, Nerf DH" thread.

    You gain a little bit more consistency for effect. Overall it would actually be only a slight nerf, if even.

    Feel free to make suggestions.

  • Raconteurminator
    Raconteurminator Member Posts: 617
    edited March 12
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    It will no doubt get changed, but it objectively doesn't need to be. Your change is bad, their change would be worse. That doesn't, however, make your suggestion good; just better by comparison, which wouldn't be hard.

    Pain Res. is heavily dependent on RNG and on what Survivors are currently doing. If a gen pops before you can hook, you've just spent a token on potentially nothing. The Killer has no control over whether or not a gen pops towards the end of the chase or when they're about to hook. If the hooks all spawn in the same area (not uncommon, and an extra hook won't fix that), you either have to use them when you don't want to or treat that area as a dead zone and leave people slugged if they go down there while they're still worth a token.

    Getting full value from Pain Res. isn't entirely within the player's control (and can be manipulated further by coordinated teams), which is why the maximum value is that high. Your change wouldn't fix that; all it would do is lower the maximum use value. It's not a simple and fair change, it's a categorical nerf.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    One significant reason you dont get full PR value all the time is because of hooks. Adding another Scourge Hook will help solving this problem, in exchange for some (actually little) value on the other side. With this change, it wont happen less likely that you cant find a hook in time before gen pops.

    Ironically enough, the 2nd part of "not full value" is that often times, max gen is not 25%, so therefore you dont loose any value nevertheless in that regard. So whats even the issue that -5% will hinder when it pops on a gen that has barely any progress?

    Its a little bit strange that you highlight the problems, but my suggestion are actually dealing with those. But hey, some read -5% per hookstage and thats already enough to disagree.

  • Raconteurminator
    Raconteurminator Member Posts: 617
    edited March 12
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    Your changes are as follows: Add 1 extra scourge hook, nerf regression by 5%. One extra hook will not change anything if the RNG decides to put all the hooks on one side of the map as it often likes to do. You really think a single hook, still affected by RNG, is worth 5%? It's not.

    You're looking at the perk on an individual level, on the level of a flat, one-off 25%. It's token based, with the possibility of failure that isn't the player's fault. Each charge is 25% because the perk needs the possibility of providing value if the Killer is screwed out of a token or two in the early game. Your change provides less value, still has the chance of losing tokens outside of the player's control, and overvalues the effect of a single (still RNG-prone) scourge hook.

    You talk about balance, yet I'm not sure I've seen you explain why it needs balancing in the first place, outside of, "I use it, it objectively needs a change."

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,910
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    I wish chase and expose builds were more viable. Two perks that I would like to see buffed is gameafoot to change obsession on every hit and starstruck to be 45 seconds.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    The explanation is in the original post. "No more annoying RNG for Killer and no more missing out on PR hooks. More ballanced out regression for survivor."

    RNG is annoying for killer players, its not reliable enough. One more hook will solve the problem to some degree. Less long way to carry the survivor around, less places (i would even say almost no more places) where Hook is not reachable.

    25% for survivor is often times just a to much benefit for a single hook. So i would reduce it to 20%. Maybe 22% or 18% would be better, but this is finetuning the change.

    Both sides get what they want without gaining or loosing much. Statisticly, the perk will probably stay exactly at the same as it is now, but way less frustrating for both sides. Win.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
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    One extra hook wont always solve the killer RNG issue, but it will also help that scenario become less likely. As a killer, I'd take this trade for 20%. As a survivor, I would not. Keep your 4 hooks and we'll deal with the 25% regression.

    Balanced change? I'd say 60/40 in favor of killer buff. But its not wildly out of scope or ridiculous. Good ideas!

  • Valuetown
    Valuetown Member Posts: 252
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    I have no control over my teammates. But that's besides the point because killer has received so many passive buffs and maps have been adjusted to favor killer for the past two years since 6.1.0, making it harder for an average survivor player to survive. If you genuinely think that an average survivor lasts longer that 25 seconds in chase, I don't know what to tell you. Just because you and I can last more than a minute in chase, doesn't mean the average player can, and a single perk shouldn't be able to carry a killer player just by doing their main objective of hooking survivors.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,130
    edited March 12
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    Right, but playing survivor by design is a "team sport". If your teammates do badly, your team should lose. If you don't like the team aspect of survivor, then you probably should try playing killer instead where its all on you without having to worry about a team.


    And you talk about the "Average" survivor player. But at the high level this game still heavily favors survivors, as comp games often show. But you may point out "average" survivors. But "average" survivors are going against "average" killers. So you don't have to worry about the high level killers who are benefitting from a 0.3 second difference in landing a hit, which realistically isn't affecting things much at that "Average" level.

  • Valuetown
    Valuetown Member Posts: 252
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    This whole comment is fundamentally wrong on every level imaginable.

    Sure, survivors need to work as a team, but calling survivor a team sport? Do you think everyone queueing up as survivor is a 4 man swf with full discord comms and clock callouts? I'm sure killers would love to blame their losses on 4 man swfs every time but come on😂 Even as a duo queue, which most survivor groups are, you are only communicating with 1/3 of your teammates. You want to call survivor a team sport, add what most every other team sport has: communication during the match. I'm not saying go so far as to add voice chat, but add contextual pings or pre-recorded survivor voice lines that can be used to coordinate. And no, seeing someone on a generator with the new UI, and hoping your teammates can infer and guess who's going to go for the unhook or take chase is not communication in the way you're thinking it is. It would also help to shrink the gap between the solo q and swf experience for both survivor and killer, and help make meaningful perk adjustments that feel fair no matter what size of group you're queueing up as.

    With a nurse profile pic, I'm sure you're aware that most good nurses, blights, spirits, weskers, etc. can absolutely get downs within 30 seconds of hooking someone. The issue with you comparing "power levels" in the way you are is that 1) the mmr system is not doing what it should be doing, so that is a moot point anyway, but also, 2) killers are able to make 10 times more mistakes than survivors, and still win the match. If a survivor makes one mistake, that has essentially sealed the fate of the rest of the team. For one mistake. A survivor who is "average" that can't loop a tile, gets stuck on objects, and doesn't know what half the killer roster does vs an "average" killer who just holds w, doesn't mind game, and presses m1 when they're close enough isn't as even as you think it is.

    The only thing I will agree with is sure, the top 0.000000001% survivor players (who are 4 man swfs) can escape almost every game no questions asked. But comp dbd vs high mmr are miles apart in terms of skill level and coordination. To equate comp dbd (high level), where the 4 man swf eats, sleeps, and breathes dbd (and can still lose by the way!) vs a high mmr match, which can have people who shouldn't be there with under 80 hours with the way the mmr system works, is something I can't say anyone with any sort of intellectual honesty would use as a valid argument to say the survivor experience is in a good place.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,130
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    By literal design, survivors are 4 players and the killer is 1. By DESIGN the killer should be stronger than an individual survivor. Otherwise the game may as well just be a 1v1. So therefore it stands to reason that survivors are TEAM. Yeah, solo queue exists. But do you think that other team based games ONLY have queuing as a 5 man? LoL has solo queue, CS has solo queue, overwatch has solo queue, and those are team-based games.

  • Valuetown
    Valuetown Member Posts: 252
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    Did you read anything that I wrote? I'm going to guess no, because if you did, you would have noticed that I said: "add what most every other team sport has: communication during the match." Do you know what LoL, CS, AND OW have? That's right!! Communication during the match!! Text chats, contextual pings, voice chat!! All of which dbd has nothing of by itself to help non-4 man swfs communicate during a match. So yet again, no dbd cannot be considered a team sport until a feature like that is added.

    I also never said that the survivors should be stronger than the killer. I said killers can make more mistakes to illustrate the point that just because "average" survivors are paired with an "average" killer, doesn't mean somehow the killer forgets how to play. They still know what they're doing to get downs and hooks, and can make more mistakes vs a survivor (which all survivor skill comes down to is macro and looping) all of which an average player lacks skill in vs high mmr, meaning it's even worse in the disparity of skill level the more average you get in mmr.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,130
    edited March 12
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    Sure, they do. But it is still a team game. The devs have even stated as much before, that survivors are a team. if they balanced the game so that a single survivor is as strong as the killer, then a killer should win if they kill a single survivor. But they don't. So that logic is flawed still.

  • Valuetown
    Valuetown Member Posts: 252
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    Again, you aren't reading what I'm writing. Working as a team vs team sport like you mentioned are two different things. If the devs want survivors to work as a team in more ways than just existing on the same map as one another, add methods for them to do so in the base game.

    Also your comment about killing a single survivor is quite humorous, considering that proxy camping and tunneling (which is killing a single survivor to win the game) is the most popular thing to do on killer right now, even in comp dbd. I'm honestly curious if we're talking about the same game or if you're just trolling me 😂

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,130
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    I am reading what you are writing, sure team sport, work as a team. I used "team sport" there in quotes, i wasn't being literal. The point being that the point of the game is that survivors are supposed to work as a team.


    Now in terms of "the devs need to add things" they do. There are tons of aura perks that show your teammates what you are doing, show you what your teammates are doing, there are items that allow you to mark locations on the map, there are tons of coordination things. Yeah they aren't voice chat, and this is precisely why i think they need to separate the queues so that SWF get their own queue, because it IS an entirely different game.


    As for your last bit, i think you and i would both agree that camping and tunneling aren't fun things right? So why should those existing justify the game being unbalanced? I think things would be in a much better state if we eliminated those things entirely and balanced the game around hooks and chases instead of kills and made camping and tunneling completely impossible. Wouldn't you agree?

  • Valuetown
    Valuetown Member Posts: 252
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    I disagree that a survivor should have to run a perk to know what their teammates are doing. I don't have to run a perk equivalent in LoL, CS, or OW for me to be able to communicate with my team. And knowing survivor auras, like I said about the new UI showing who's doing what, is not communication, it's information (they're not the same thing). I have to infer what people are going to do instead of them telling me or me making a request. Me knowing where my teammates are seldom helps at all because at the end of the day I can't communicate any coordination plans to them. You wouldn't have to split the queues if the devs would provide a way to communicate information to one another during the match. Your game sense and ability to communicate information does not change whether you're in a 4 man or solo q.

    As for the devs adding things, no. The glass bead for the map is the ONLY item in the game that allows for "communication." But all it does is mark a location. What about that location does the map holder want me to know? Is there a totem? An almost complete gen? A trap? Fully stacked medkit? Even with a beam in the sky, I have to infer what it means. Also the beacon requires you to be able to see it. It's useless in indoor maps. So no, there aren't "tons of coordination things" that exist in dbd.

    As for your last paragraph, I agree, but I don't know what point you're trying to make. You mentioned that killers killing one survivor doesn't win them the game, but that's exactly what camping and tunneling do, which wins comp killers their games. Yes I would prefer it not to be the case, but I'm not using that to justify anything. I, like everyone else that plays this game, wants a fun and interactive experience where player actions matter, instead of whatever we have now.