The Unknown’s Cosmetics and Transphobia
Let me just start off by saying, because I know some players will take this thread uncharitably: I don’t think the devs or designers were intentionally being transphobic when they made these skins, and I understand the concept they were going for. HOWEVER: The decision to launch the Unknown with femme coded cosmetics was extremely irresponsible, and is already enabling transphobia amongst the more hateful members of the playerbase.
The cheerleader outfit in particular evokes a rather harmful stereotype of trans women, a masculinized body in feminine clothing that’s depicted as dangerous and grotesque. The fact The Unknown happens to be voiced by a trans woman (which otherwise would be a such a great excited piece of trivia) makes the choice to launch with these cosmetics feel particularly egregious. If there were other, more positive pieces of trans rep in DBD this wouldn’t feel like such a blunder. But with all the combined factors, and the political climate that these skins are being released under, I’m really am shocked no one on the team thought that maybe these skins were inappropriate.
Comments
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The skins are perfectly fine. Can we stop with this.
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If we removed every skin over the possibility of someone using it offensively, we'll have no skins.
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It isn't a masculinized body though?
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I dont think the body is masculinized at all.
But since the topic is open is it even possible for bhvr to make a killer that is lgbtq presenting in any way without that killer generating hate?
Most of the time when i see people talking about queer representation for the killer mains the people say no matter what it would be bad rep since killers are bad
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What are you talking about? The Unknown has no gender because we don't know what they actually are.
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Probably because the female skin still has broad shoulders.
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That is a good point i didnt even thought about that.
I m not super into lore reading in dbd but i thought the unknown is like either changing his flesh to look like his victims after consuming them or just outright taking over there body and twisting it to fit like that roach in the first men in black movie
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In the lore it says that they are not sure if it is an alien, a bioweapon or something else entirely.
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Ah okey so it very well could be that the tentacles we see in its powr and Moritz are like parts of the real killer and he pilots his victims like a suite
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I mean I get what you say but i think that the big problem with that is that in media queer characters are so often portrait as that a queer character. Its not a killer that just happens to be gay and thats part of his lore its a gay killer that kills cause he is gay and everybode hatet him for being gay... did i saud hes gay!
You know what i mean. If the people writing q character take the time to develope the lore and naturally place the queernes in it everything ahould be fine it just can not be a defining characteristic but that also should not be the case in good characters
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Isn’t the common sentiment that the way someone dresses doesn’t make them any more or less trans? So what exactly makes these cosmetics offensive towards trans people? I’m all for being supportive but sometimes I feel like some of y’all just set up people to be easily cancelled for the most trivial things.
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That's what I'm sayin. People can wear whatever the hell they want and that doesn't identify them as anything except what they choose to be identified as.
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Please, remember to keep the discussion here civil and respectful when commenting and responding. Thank you.
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I think that your solution to the problem is wrong, if someone makes these kind of “jokes” into the game, they should be banned, instead of erasing content from The Unknown. In any game or social media, it’s impossible to keep all the transphobic persons out, and i don’t see how Trans Representation will solve this topic, i support and think that DbD needs Trans Rep. but i think that this time, it isn’t the solution to this problem
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@ChrisPyre They said in the Dev Live Stream that The Unknown is inherently not gender assigned, it's just a Thing that takes on the Form of those it wants to mimic in a horrific manner.
Post edited by BoxGhost on13 -
The skins are perfectly fine as they are.
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I share the concern regarding the cheerleader skins for the Unknown in Dead by Daylight. Ignoring the Lore, the appearance of these skins seems to resemble a transphobic caricature. While I understand the company's perspective on using the same model rig for both male and female skins, the cheerleader skins may unintentionally perpetuate harmful stereotypes. I've already witnessed instances where these skins were used for transphobic bullying. I appreciate the effort of the talented artists at bHVR, and I hope they can address this issue to ensure a positive and inclusive gaming experience.
I do not believe bHVR means any ill here, its just a skin walked too close to line, its worth it to recognize that, retract them and change them to look less like a caricature and more like an Unknown Alien taking host inside of a highschool cheerleader.
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How can you bully someone with the Unknown skins in a transphobe way?
Mori people with flag charms? That's old. People having stupid names? Old. And mixing the "male" head with the "female" body is not what I would call bullying.
And I say it again: THE UNKNOWN HAS NO GENDER AND THEREFORE CANNOT BE TRANS OR ANYING ELSE.
To be precise it is AGENDER.
So stop creating problems where none exist.
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You can go look at what is taking place on Twitter, I'm not posting them here, the mods would delete me. Its mainly a combination of claiming the Unknown is trans representation, claiming that at or in earshot transwomen community members and claiming those community members ARE those cheerleader skins. Its frankly horrid and its a matter of time before they pull worse things off.
The problem isn't with the Lore, the lore is fine, the problem is those skins look like transphobic caricatures, which makes them ripe tools for transphobic bullying. A similar problem to 'that Bubba Mask', but a different marginalized group in our society
I understand that it might seem like these issues are being blown out of proportion, but it's crucial to recognize that the impact of certain content can vary for different individuals. Video games are a shared space where people from various backgrounds come together to have fun and enjoy a hobby.
When content in games perpetuates stereotypes or mocks certain groups, even by accident, it can inadvertently contribute to a negative environment for those players. It's not about creating problems where none exist but rather fostering an inclusive and welcoming space for everyone.
Consider that some players may face discrimination and stereotyping in their daily lives, and the gaming community can either be a supportive escape or an additional source of distress. By addressing these concerns, we can work towards creating a more positive and inclusive gaming culture that respects the diverse experiences of its players.
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Then why bring these issues from your life into the safe space? Why not just enjoy the game for what it is rather than try and alter it into something hateful.
When I saw the Unknown skins I instantly loved them. I felt showcased what this killer is and the depth of its character. Why do you go immediately to hateful intentions?
I agree this should be a safe place to enjoy. So please think about that before trying to take something that has only positive intentions and distorting it into something revolting.
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If the issue is happening outside the game, you should aim to block that people, and continue enjoying the new content and the game itself. BHVR can’t be responsible for what’s going on in social media (outside the game)
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Why are you on Twitter in the first place? It is nothing more than a school backyard 2.0 where bullies have the time of their life.
What those idiots claim does not matter in the slightest. The Devs themselves said that the Unknown is an unknown being without specific gender. Therefore is is not trans and therefore it cannot represent or mock trans people.
Some people are always #########, don't give them attention.
If think that those skins do anything bad, than those idiots already won as you give them what they want.
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What's truly horrid is that people interact with Twitter or care about what is said on it. Shortform social media lends itself to the most sensational and incendiary takes in as few characters as possible. It's all just for attention. It's worthless as a communication medium.
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Perhaps we shouldn't use any human figure in the games anymore...
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In the face of bullying, it's essential to acknowledge the emotional impact it can have on individuals, recognizing that everyone has feelings and that it's normal to be affected by hurtful comments. The idea that "not caring" about what people say may not be an effective response is rooted in an understanding of the potential consequences of sustained exposure to bullying on mental health.
Instead of dismissing these emotions and encouraging isolation from the online world, its crucial to be fostering open communication, encouraging individuals to discuss their feelings with trusted friends, family, or support networks to gain emotional relief and potentially find constructive solutions. It's important to convey that setting boundaries and standing up against bullying is not about being overly reactive but rather asserting one's right to be treated respectfully and promoting a positive, inclusive environment for everyone.
By empowering individuals to respond assertively, seek support, and contribute to a culture where bullying is not tolerated, we can collectively work towards creating a healthier and more empathetic community. It wont happen tomorrow, but things are better these days than earlier.
So to return to the topic, it becomes a problem when bHVR's new Dead by Daylight Killer becomes the catalyst that causes bullying and its worth it for bHVR to consider what they enable. I'm not blind to seeing that everyone who responded to OP is basically saying they are wrong, but that's really up to bHVR anyway and I think we should encourage bHVR considering that.
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I mean, we've removed bubba mask before, I'm not exactly sure if this is that different.
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The mask was literally Bubba running around in blackface, which was never not going to be an issue. This is people complaining about something that isn't inherently offensive, and certainly couldn't be seen as offensive without someone being greatly uncharitable to Behaviour and interpreting it in the worst possible way.
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okey so now ive taken the time to play the new patch and cause of this post i took more time then normal to take a reeeeaaally good look at the new killer and its skins to get a better view of them then only in videos.
op i can really not understand where you are comming from when you compare the base skin with the cheerleader skin you can clearly see that this has nothing to do with trans at all.
sure the overall shape and rig of the killer is still the same but thats also the case for legion and they are four whole persons and you can see its not just his normal male body dressed in cheerleaders cloth with long hair like that one bubba skin. it a whole other person that ofcourse got twisted and shaped by whatver the real killer is that now lives inside that shell.
if you look at the stomach you can see that with the cheerleader skin the big outstanding belly is missing and the face has a diffrent shape aswell since the male skin has that grin that goes from ear to ear and the female skin does not have that and you can clearly see its a diffrent face
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It’s different because that happened in the game itself, not just in social media like this Unknown issue. The thing is that BHVR can’t be responsible for things that are happening outside the game, if the issue goes into DbD itself i think that BHVR can do something about it, but from what i read it’s just happening on Twitter/X so…
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Exactly, thats what the game tries to tell to us, The Unknown tries to mimic the appearance of their victims, but fails in some aspects, that’s the point of the skins and if someone misunderstood the concept to harass some community in social media and not in the game itself, BHVR can’t do anything about it
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What are you talking about? I just said Twitter is a dumpster fire and you're lecturing me about how bullying is bad, actually. I know bullying is bad. How is that germane to my post?
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Uh, I'm not sure, I'm not sure if extremely twisted figure of specific kind of people is any less "inherently offensive" than those kind of things.
like I mean, unknown is not just using a face hide as a mask, but literally wearing entire person as a suits, is it any better? I can even say this is worse.
Oh but don't get me like someone actually getting offended by those kind of things, this is a horror game after all so it feels strange sometime, I just feel there should be consistency and fairness in dealing with those kind of things.
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I responded to both your posts. Its not directly a response to what you said.
Its about how when someone suggests "just ignore them" as a response to bullying, it's important to recognize that while ignoring hurtful comments may seem like a simple solution, it doesn't address the underlying emotional impact of bullying. Ignoring hurtful remarks can often lead to internalizing negative feelings, which can have detrimental effects on mental health over time. Encouraging open communication and seeking support from trusted individuals can provide a healthier outlet for processing emotions and finding constructive solutions. Additionally, fostering a culture where bullying is not tolerated and promoting assertive responses, such as setting boundaries and standing up for oneself, can empower individuals to address the issue while maintaining their well-being. By acknowledging the emotional toll of bullying and promoting more proactive approaches to addressing it, we can work towards creating a safer and more supportive environment for everyone involved.
Indeed bullying IS bad and bottling it up can be even worse.
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I understand the concern of having something that could be perceived as transphobic, in a global environment where transphobia is rampant, but this outfit is exactly what you would expect from a creature that hides inside of people's skin, both men and women.
I understand that negative experiences with certain issues can make a person see something and draw links between things that other people may not notice. I grew up in the 90's where people still believed some of the most disgusting lies that were spread about gay men. But this feels like a stretch. This feels less like something that is blatantly offensive, and more something that someone might see and worry some people will draw negative inferences. These kinds of people who make these kinds of inferences are not the kinds of people that are on the fence. Not having a creature that wears people's skins wearing a woman's skin will not stem the tide of transphobia.
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There's no point in coating the world in bubble wrap. Bigots are going to bigot, regardless. No transphobe was waiting for these skins to be released so they could belittle and harrass trans women online. They were already doing it.
You don't beat bigots by retreating so they have more space to spread their hatred. You come together with others to rally behind those are being mistreated, show the bigots just how heavily outnumbered they are, and then you crush them.
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I believe it's important to consider whether our game design decisions inadvertently provide ammunition to transphobic individuals. While I don't believe bHVR intended for the cheerleader skins to perpetuate harmful stereotypes, it's crucial to acknowledge when a design crosses the line. I trust that bHVR wants what's best for their community, as they always have. It's essential to recognize when something comes too close to the line.
A constructive solution could involve issuing an apology, reaffirming commitment to inclusivity, offering refunds for the cheerleader skins, removing them from the game temporarily, and tasking the animation/art team with creating new, more inclusive versions. This approach may be costly, but it demonstrates a commitment to rectifying unintentional harm. I still believe that an Unknown cheerleader skin can be created, but it must be done in a way that avoids perpetuating harmful stereotypes.
I also agree wholeheartedly with the importance of our commitment to our community.
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I don't bully anyone (I am a very friendly and respectful person). Those who bully, don't need a cosmetic, they already did it for years. I got bullied in school. They did not need a reason, let me tell you that. Same with the Twitter idiots. They just want to lift their tiny egos.
Instead of restricting or forbidding everything we should better just ignore the idiots. People like you contribute to those horrible people by giving them a platform. Just stop creating problems which don't exist.
Transphobes already used Flag Charms to determine whom to tunnel, BM etc. They already make posts and twisted stuff. They don't start just because a cosmetic got added.
Post edited by BoxGhost on6 -
No because it clearly states they are based off of victims of the unknown they weren’t made to be masculine, plus we don’t even know what the unknown is it states that in the backstory for all we know its just attempting to look human grossly exaggerating features that it remembers or maybe it just does that on purpose and not to mention the VA of the unknown is a trans woman if she had any issues I’m sure she wouldn’t have done this let’s not make an issue where there isn’t any.
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BHVR apologising would simply affirm what the bigots were saying. That these skins were akin to anti-trans stereotypes, which they are not. They've taken a monster that hides inside a person's skin and tranformed it into something bigoted. Again, you are giving ground to the bigots.
I haven't had the opportunity to ask my trans friends how they feel about this (I'm not even sure I want to, as they don't really like being essentialized by their trans status), but I'm certain that they would see those skins and just think they look cool.
Stand by trans people and remind them that you support them. But don't let bigots take something that is fine and turn it into something grotesque.
Post edited by BoxGhost on4 -
It's not a masculinsed body, though. It's an intentionally grotesque mimicry of a generic human form because the killer is a mimic, and not a very good one. Sure, the base character has a masculine voice, but that's why they went the route of having two voice actors.
I understand the desire to stand against transphobia, but as a trans person, this isn't an example of it, and anyone trying to use it as one should be removed from the community - they aren't welcome here.
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Pls explain to me how this skins is perpetuating harmful stereotypes?
Like i already said earlier you can clearly see that its not the same male body of the baseskin in a cheerleader outfit with a wig. If that was the case i would absolutly agree that it could be seen as transphobe but its obvious that this is another persons body that is broken and twisted to meet the creatures needs.
If its really so apparent that this is a masculin body i would you to point me to wich features make it so maskulin and with that harmful since you think the skin should be changed there obvious is a "right" way to portrait a female body.
Btw talking about how something looks to masculin to be perceived as a woman is sexist af and these Twitter keyboard warriors that think they need to protect trans people are now just denying woman that dont fit stereotypes x there womanhood.
I had a very good friend who was 2m tall and by that taller then every guy she ever meet. The gods had blessed her with a strong body she had many features that would traditionally be considered masculine and I am a man with big full lips wide hips and a soft face all things traditionally considered to be feminin traits. These are just two examples from my personal life to show that there are people whos bodys dont fit those stereotypes so if we now say: " well that looks to masculine to be a woman and thereby is trans mockery" we ignore all the people who dont fit those stereotypes and by this tell them they are wrong and dont fit there gender.
Since when was being trans or not being trans about looks? Many transpeople even advocate that people should not put so much importance on "passing
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Your first three paragraphs were perfectly fine.
But let me say a couple things here. Every version of the unknown is degusting and distorted by design. I doubt "trans centered skins" even crossed the skin artists mind when they made each skin.
They made a horror creature that takes from it's victims aspects and applied that to it's skin simple as. How in the world is this now about trans people? People will try and bait any individual regardless of association, you can't just delete everything that can be considered a minority in someway for fear backlash/bad people. I don't consider it ok to tip-toe around certain things just because people have the ability to slander them as they do with all other types of people.
Take it as is, a grotesque creature who dresses up like it's victims. If we slapped a gym top and leggings on nemi would it be so bad? Xeno? Blight?
It's a horror themed game regardless of if that's it's gameplay genre these days.
Also flat out every player on pc has the ability to 100% mitigate bullying to themselves. Turn off chat, private profile. If you don't like that insta block people the second they say something even remotely toxic. What's left is in game and tbh any toxic action done in game is not indictive of a players thoughts what so ever, there simply is not enough expression there.
All I see is a creature picking up the aspects of a generically killed cheer leader, as the horror genre has always done. If it wasn't a horror thematic game op may have an argument here but now they don't. If you took sett from league, slapped on some lipstick, distorted him in a grotesque but female reminiscent way, that would be ground for complains. That would be absurd. It's not the case here.
I genuinely don't care if it gets changed but I don't see a real reason to.
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Speaking as a trans person, the skins are fine. I've seen a lot of transphobic stuff out there across a lot of media and this doesn't even come close. The unknown is some sort of abomination piloting around a skin suit while not really understanding how human proportions work. Don't give in to the bigots and the people trying to sensationalize everything. There's nothing wrong with these cosmetics.
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Thank you!
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Well said.
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I don't think I'm getting the full understanding of the points being made.
What I know about the Unknown is that it presents itself as whatever a person thought it would look like. The base model we have is a contorted skin suit it wears to taunt and lure people in. The skins are just it wearing a different skinsuit.
You're issue with the skins, from my understanding (correct me if I am wrong), is that you believe that the tattered and distorted body of the Unknown is too 'masc-coded' for the Cheerleader outfit because it comes off as transphobic? Or that it presents some form of Trans Stereotype?
If that were the case, I don't think BHVR would have made the skins, they have been quite open about their support of the LGBT community. I think they learnt their lesson from the Bubba masks in which they want to avoid giving bigots ammunition to harass people.
Also, I would not have known the Unknown had a trans VA had I not been on this post. The more you know.
I for one, like the skins and the fact that I can mix and match the bodies and weapons (like the Dredge, my best boi). If it does become an issue, then we can almost assure that they will amend it, but for now I think you might be reading into it a bit too much.
As far as Trans rep in DBD goes, the only thing we have for it is the Tubarão skin for Renato (the Transgender defender from Rainbow Six Siege)
If anything I have said is wrong or I missed a point, feel free to tell me.
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The thing people are latching on to is that these are non-set locked cosmetics, so you can have the cheerleader body with the masculine face or vice versa. It's not transphobia, the creature doesn't understand what humans are supposed to look like and is barely holding the shell together.
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I understand where you are coming from, but per the lore the Unknown is simply trying to pass as human. The fact that the cosmetics can be mixed and are not locked to gender shows an inclusive reflection (imo) of society in the Unknown's perspective.
If certain people choose to twist this, well that doesn't particularly surprise me. There are bigots everywhere and unfortunately they're not going away.
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Ahh ok.
I thought it was cool that the cosmetics weren't linked. I like seeing a balding man in old lady clothes. Reminds me of old comedy shows. And also shows how hard the Unknown is trying to look human. And it means I can use a different weapon to the Axe.
Even in game, it doesn't know how to breathe normally, instead it grunts in pain.
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Yeah, fully agreed. It just looks so ridiculous no matter what combination of parts/clothing are used.
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