Survivors are really making me hate this game
I don't know what's changed but in the past month or two, I've been consistently teamed up with people who have no intention on completing generators and only want to taunt the killer. This isn't just me complaining as a Killer either because I mostly play survivor. These people spend their time messing around and I'm the only who actually plays the game. I've had many rounds where I'm the only one who attempts to do generators.
And then, when the gates open, all they do is hang out by the exit gates until the timer is about to run out. Am I missing something? Is there a benefit to prolonging the game when everyone can escape?
I don't know what it is, but I feel like more often than not lately, I'm paired up with people who don't want to actually play.
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Since nerfs have been rampant this past year - a lot survivors ain't going to be tryhard escaping, so they make their own fun.
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Well what do you expect survivors to do?
This meta is godawful, boring, and almost zero variety, skill-expression continues to get watered down, maps made more bland and killer sided, perks are being released that literally only benefit the Killer, among other things.
Taking it out on the killer is a wrong move and shame on those people for being unsportsmanlike, but there is not point in putting effort to escape right now.
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My killer games get a lot of these survivors too. I end up letting the last one go a LOT because I recognize they're just doing the gens. Meanwhile the other two or three attempt their boil over/unbreakable builds and flashlight/champion of light blinds while t-bagging and end up all getting slugged without even trying to get gens done. It gets annoying.
And on survivor side, they just make SoloQ that much worse when you see all three of them go down or drag their chases to your gen because you're trying to prevent a 3-gen scenario.
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Your lament is greatest. I've seen many times that these kind of child-like people who aren't participating in the game and are just disrupting the game are screaming 5 gen tunnel. The reason they can't realize that they're a nuisance to their fellow survivors is because they aren't enjoying the game. For them, games are not something they enjoy, but a tool to enjoy other purposes. Of course, the purpose is not related to the game, it's childish and embarrassing.
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That's what the game has become over the years. The horror is gone, the core gameplay of doing generators is no longer as appealing as it once was, especially once you play other, unfortunately ill-fated games in the genre. So now most people just want to loop and stun.
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I feel you, sometimes the only reason I escape is because I'm finishing 3-4 gens on my own. I know doing gens isn't the most exciting thing in the world but if everyone did only one gen you're like 80% of the way out, I wish they would try just a little.
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"This meta is godawful, boring, and almost zero variety,"
Haha, so pre 6.1.0? Literally the entire meta after the first year the game launched was the same.
You only contribute to the problem and everyone who thinks like you. I would have a 65% wr as survivor instead of 52% if people just tried, that's it, TRY.
Sometimes I run into good killers, playing good killers while running the meta but not more than 1/4 games(keep in mind good killer players are probably 1/50 easily and to say otherwise would undermine your own station).
So what do I expect? Survivors to play the game they queued up for. Or do we just kill the game now and always do nothing?
I will say what they do to maps is never good for the most part, that's it.
If the killer was good, survivor wouldn't be able to "take it out on them". Factually.
It seems to me you have played too much solo queue and it's skewed your perception. Survivors throw the game at least 1/2 of games by not playing well(not even optimally) just playing to win. Oh no, survivors only have a 40% win rate bare minimum when 1/4th of the are throwing every game. How sad.
I didn't play survivor until after 6.1.0 and I have mained the role since a few months after. I don't need those old perks to carry me, I need my teamates to play semi-competently and THAT"S IT.
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Well I don't know how I'm contributing to any problem when I've basically stopped playing for awhile now aside from one or two full swf matches.
I know you dislike my opinions but even then it's a weird assumption to think I'm actively ruining games.
Anyways, modern survivor isn't about besting the killer in chase anymore, it's about forcing them into unwinnable macro situations by taking initiative with holding m1 on gens.
I win most of my games, solo or otherwise, it's still boring. There's no interaction, and looping is now just static loops on safe tiles and static downs on unsafe tiles. It feels like playing in a tournament.
It's not shocking that players now don't care about escaping because they're so thirsty for fun interactions with their opponent, but this is the result of balancing through nerfs instead of buffs.
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Alright let assume 6.1.0 never happened and killers overall got more buffs then they got while survivors were left the same. Survivors would still be running the same meta loadout from back then and killers would be far stronger basekit overall. Survivors still wouldn't have time to essentially mess around as you and many other want to be able to.
Chase is the best part of survivor but if it takes survivor being op vs all but the A tier and higher killers then nothing changes.
Old survivor just had the time to waste and it was fun for them even if they ended up throwing the game, now it's "I can't win the game while not being progressive and that's obnoxious". Again, except for a small portion of killers.
It sounds to me like you want a rework of the survivor system itself in it's entirety.
If you agree that map changes have been bad and an overhaul to the survivor objective is needed then I agree.
But there is 0 point in queuing up just the preform the myriad of ways to solo end the game, unless you are selfish or oblivious.
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Pre 6.1 was one of the best eras we had. A quick aside for people who forgot all the bad of 6.1(.x).
- Removed (meaningful) anti-tunnel from the game
- Nerfed Ruin/Thana/Calm Spirit/Self-Care/Iron-Will for no good reason
- Buffed OC/CoB/Eruption to the point that a monkey with a spacebar would win as Killer
The problem everyone complains about in terms of the meta being the same, is that no perks are competitive for the top slots. The default balancing decisions for both sides are to make 10 Amazing perks, 20 inferior copies of the previous group, 30 even more niche perks or inferior versions of the previous group, and the rest are so bad that by attempting to get perk value you set yourself behind more often than not. We want the bottom 90+ to be reasonable options in the first two groups, and maybe still keep some goof perks for funsies.
Adrenaline/Unbreakable/Pop/Lethal are examples of fair and useful perks. Their strength is often high, but that is matched with the cost. Knowing the exact spawn of an entire team allows me to plan out my initial stalk route as Ghosty, and it can then help my Iri Cam/Floods proc to re-update and adjust my line of attack. Adrenaline heals an entire health state, even on the ground or on hook, but it requires all the gens to be completed to get that effect. (Taking my Killer games into account, that is only 26% of matches where Adren can even proc.)
The two largest meta shifts for Survivor were from Boon: Circle of Healing and Made for This. I am glad CoH got nerfed, but it never should have been a better Self-Care to begin with. Personally I was fine with MfT as Killer, as Sprint Burst always gave Survivors more value against my playstyle. Since both meta shifts were from new Survivor top-class perks, and both got nerfed far below what people now consider usable, BHVR appears to be afraid to mess with the core they made from the onset. Looking at the top 10s recently posted, the newest Surv perk came out June 2018, and the newest Killer perk came out Nov 2021. We have nothing useful in the past 2-5 years, but at least Killer gets a tad bit more variety. 6.1 Initially came out in July 2022, so even now we are still stuck with an old Meta despite multiple 'shakeups'.
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On the topic of Survivors throwing, we have tomes to blame for that. Lets look at the 2 worst for Survivor and Killer this most recent tome. Now at first the Orange Glyph looks bad for Killer, but you can basically just read this as a 'play Nurse for no drawbacks' tome, so I'll include a third for Killer. First off take 2 protection hits, or 'give a Killer a free down/64 gen seconds of healing'. Next up we have lose chase 3 times in one match, or 'hope pre-dropped pallets are kicked'. For Killer we have... wait ... Kill 2 Obs, Sacrifice 8, hook 8, get a 3k+, hook the Obs twice, hook 3 different Survivors? All of those are progressing the win condition and not throwing at all. Once they make Survivor tomes not ludicrous throwing mechanisms, Survivors will be allowed to enjoy the game instead of raging at their teammates.
On the other end Killer variety is ludicrously low (at least in my Survivor games), and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to face the same Killer 5 times in a row (other than new Killers on release week). Also if someone brings a heal build/tome, they shouldn't be slapped in the face with Plague disabling 25% of the game. I personally don't understand why we don't have either a Killer ban or repeat prevention system yet, as every other ranked game with different characters knows you need that. (I say ranked because MMR is NOT optional, so all public play options are ranked game modes, and customs can be coordinated with those in the customs.) Personally when I sign up for a ranked game mode, I sign up for the basic QoL of being able to ban the character that counters my intended playstyle. Being denied that QoL just means the game is incomplete, or it should be unranked instead.
Hopefully this gave more insights into why people throw, don't want to play, or complain about the meta perk selection.
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-While old decisive was good, new dh/ds/otr is just a better anti tunnel albeit way more perk slots to use. Also far less accessible.
-IW deserved everything it got coming to it, I'd rather god validation dh to come back than old iw. The perk fabricated 50/50s the instant LoS was broke. If it got either the exhaustion(on half the survivors in the game) or 100% back it'd be hard meta yet again.
-Yeah. Gen kick meta was a plague still affecting killers brains to this day.
P1: Obviously that's the case. But shifting the meta after 6 years is better than trying to meaninglessly buff up perks that are so poor design they could never be anything but op or trash is better than not.
P2: I agree but I think pop with any other useful gen regression makes it too strong. Also it involves kicking a gen so it's on my hit list.
P3: BHVR made bad perk designs with mft and ALL boons. They simply don't have enough creativity/insight to change them appropriately. I actively abused mft and it was busted busted. Boons have no real counter play when used properly, the killer is typically left with no options when they are used right.
P4: I've said a lot of this in other posts or maybe even in this post. Yeah, tomes actively encourage survivors to throw.
If people don't want to play then don't play. 0 point in queueing up to leave 30 seconds in.
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Survivors are not used to not being the proportionally imbalanced overpowered side of the game where every escape is a cake walk. Not having infinites, instant heals, crazy perks ect is a new thing for the lots of them
Post edited by EQWashu on6 -
Sad but true.
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I do wonder if we might be starting to see the ripple effect of not matching players accurately in terms of playstyle. You have to figure that the players who prefer to be optimal will get fed up with teammates who throw for Archives or don't do objectives.
I personally haven't launched the game in over a month. I'm the type of survivor who constantly sticks gens and plays pretty optimally. And I feel like my time is being wasted most of the time on solo queue. I don't get teammates who play like I do or have anything close to my experience level. So I quit playing.
I wonder if other players with my mindset are gradually doing the same. You eventually end up with a hyper casual playerbase, and that's going to frustrate some people.
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This reads like it came directly from my mind.
And yes, i dont play much survivor anymore but rather either 1v1s against other maniacs or killer games. My main issue with survivor is that i have to be significantly better then the killer to even reach a 50% winrate - on the highest level of course, otherwise you are stuck with the other 40/60s. And that feels like a chore ngl.
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Interestingly enough whenever I see this topic emerge, people suggest making amends with the fact you probably won’t escape and finding fun in farming/goofing. Well, for survivors. I don’t ever see this advice offered to killer players. Have either of you tried approaching your survivor games in this way? Like yeah you’re probably going to lose but hey you can maybe have fun before you do by being silly.
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My biggest complaint is actually killers and I am generally one of the most killer sided survivor mains in existence.
But lately I feel the tunnelling and proxying to tunnel is beyond a joke, killers bring the sweatiest and most unfun builds and play in the most unfun ways imaginable.
I would like to play killer myself just so others can enjoy some chilled out fun matches... but that just gets you BM and teabagged at the exit. So really don't know what to do here
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There isn't much point trying to complete a single gen now since every Killer is running the same copy paste pain res pop grim embrace dms build. So I'm guessing people are just messing around.
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I've tried, but the game is less fun for me that way. The really fun part of survivor for me is optimizing and essentially speedrunning the trials. And that's not even remotely possible unless I'm in a very specific 4 man SWF. Every once in a while they do a matchmaking test where I have solo queue nirvana for a day or two with players I used to play comp with, and then they immediately turn it off and it goes back to a matchmaking free-for-all.
I just don't see why survivor matchmaking has to be this bad for the game to function.
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Again, word by word agree. Even the comp part 😂
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My theory is that their data most likely showed that bad killers are more likely to quit if faced with too much challenge, and on the other side most survivors are likely to still play even if they lose a majority of their games as long as it means they get into game quickly.
It sounds like a tinfoil hat moment, but think about it, with the amount of lobby dodging and moaning about swf, the amount of killers that would simply not enjoy the game if they were faced with a real challenge in most of their games has to be pretty high.
BHVR really wants killer to feel like the power role, so slaughtering more than half your lobbies is their way of achieving this, it also doubles as a low-cost way to maintain the game since it doesn't require any meaningful resources being put into balance.
Of course this is on BHVR and not the killer playerbase.
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You wouldn't have time to mess around perhaps but you also would still have powerful perks to swing the game in your favor that feel good to use and un-nerfed maps.
Besides, what is the alternative now? Survivor meta is still perks that were released ages ago and killer still got a ton of basekit buffs. Which were needed and I don't want killer to get stripped down like survivor is at the moment.
I do agree that my vision for the game is not in line with what the devs want, so my solution is to just not play until something comes up that makes the game engaging to me, a wave of basekit survivor buffs or a rework to generators would be a start.
I don't know why you're telling me the last point, I agree with you and have never endorsed queuing up to troll and waste time, that doesn't mean I cannot sympathize with the reasons that are pushing people to do so.
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I've actually gotten to the point that if it's clear that the other survivors only want to screw around, I'll just quit the match. I don't have the patience for it anymore. If I have completed a task such as a daily or tomb, I'll go wait the match out somewhere and do something else. I'll let the killer kill me or hide in a hidden recess if I'm the killer.
Yesterday I had a game as the killer that was more than ten minutes before the any survivors attempted to do a generator. They just kept vaulting windows and slamming lockers from opposite corners of the map. I almost never saw them.
No one sees the killer as a threat anymore. I had so much fun back in the day knowing that if I saw the killer, I needed to fear for my life. Now, I don't even stop doing a generator of the killer is coming at me because I know the odds of me escaping scot free are far greater than me getting hooked.
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I’d challenge your theory by saying if BHVR is more concerned with player retention and satisfaction on the killer side, why not nerf or eliminate their biggest gripe: SWF? You could argue it would drive survivors away but if they target only 3-4 man SWF teams that’s less than 30% of all survivor players.
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I'd wager its because it's much easier to leave survivors in a weak state overall than remove the ability to play with friends which would cause a lot of problems with both casual and competitive audiences.
Also I'd say all the basekit survivor nerfs are also swf nerfs.
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Or would it balance out by creating a better experience for killer players.. which is the crux of your argument?
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Because they’re a business and literally cutting out 30% (much more would leave too) of your playerbase intentionally would be the dumbest business decision ever.
“You could argue it would drive survivors away”
I mean yeah, them literally telling you you can’t play with your friends in a party game would more than likely drive away a vast majority of your playerbase 😂
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this is not survivors fault. it is BHVR balance decisions that made the game too hard and too hopeless for survivors to play correctly most matches. Why would you try your best when you know you dont have equal chances of winning? Hate the game not the player
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My guess would be there are not enough killer players in general for BHVR based on their stats, which also explains why it's conveinent for killers to lobby dodge since they can get into other lobbies very quickly.
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I'd bet that the SWF teams spend the most money on the game in terms of cosmetics as well so BHVR wouldn't want to upset their biggest customers.
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Survivor mains in general are a larger source of revenue than killer mains. But the logic of consumerism falls apart when we consider that they’ve made survivor (their largest clientele) a miserable gaming experience. I guess the hope is that if survivors are distracted with cosmetics—like Sable or whatever her name is—they’ll tolerate grueling experiences; I.e. playing the game as survivor.
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I don't find either side miserable, but both are boring and fairly stale in different way. I still assume BHVR has been doing killer buffs because they are trying to entice more killer players based on the stats they have of how many killer players there are compared to survivors. I doubt it will work since a lot of people generally don't want to play killer for various reasons. Maybe BHVR should focus on making a killer bot mode that would be more fun and accessible for survivor mains.
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I just gave up on trying to win. All I do is meme around with a flashlight now. Game is way too hard in solo queue to take it seriously. Might as well find other ways to entertain yourself.
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Lol, no. The game is a piece of cake when Survivors actually play. Survivor has been easy mode for a long time. That's one reason I think they are screwing around so much now. If anything, it should be way harder for survivors. Survivors should never feel like they're safe.
Lights out was a step in the right direction. I hope that becomes a permanent move because that was the most fun I've had as either side in years.
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i mean almost every match the killer playing right from the get do tries to tunneling or proxy camp the hook (killer could be running bbq and still chooses to come back to unhook just because they seen the unhook on the hud which they shouldn't be able to abuse) so most game are a loss anyway so most people are just trying to have fun without escaping slugging and tunneling are way to easy for killer to guarantee a win or at let 2k for doing nothing, along with all the killer buff that been released this year is insane and hardly any survivor perks that are actually worth running besides mem perks people say that the 8 gen limit was a survivor buff no it a system to stop people from play in the god awful play styles same thing with the ant face camp it a playstyle the they don't encourage but still people will try to find away around the system such at 4 gen regression perks, killer player don't want to actually put in any effort now a day they legit want their perks to win them the match most of the time survivor don't have half of the luxury because most of their perk are that trash unless the entire team of 4 runs the same perks witch no one is going to do to make 1 perk actually decent and for 1 you can't say survivor tunnel gen when they actually have to put time into do that gen while as killer I though pop on and oh like, u have to do almost half the gen again so u as killer spend 2 seconds to make the game 1 minute longer for the other side don't seem balance at all and that's perk that people can put on every game while the only real gen rush survivors have in tool box and BRP witch is trash now and that's actually RNG to get them it's not like you can bring (commodious tool box and BNP and WIRE spool) every game it quite impossible to do that because of how rare they are
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I litteraly pulled off 100% winrate without any game done all 5 generators during Lights Out. If this is somehow fun for you, you should maybe not call anybody or anything "piece of cake".
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I could have sworn you are the same spirit that was complaining about otr while playing the 3rd strongest killer
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Ad hominem fallacy
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-Why should I need 3 perks to just play the game, that's just ridiculous. Also OTR is still denied by hitting off hook.
-Why complain about IW and then not complain about OTR? Personally I think IW was overrated, but I do have hearing damage so my gameplay is less reliant on hearing to be fair.
P1: Agree to disagree. Fixing what isn't broke is foolish IMO. Especially since now tunneling is more painful than it ever has been.
P2: I think stacking slowdown is the main problem. I would give perks 'classes', and if you can unlock bonus effects if you don't run more than 1 per 'class'. Something like perks are 25% more effective for not stacking a 'class'.
P3: The only flaw I think boons had were high floor/too far out of the way totems. As long as 1 totem could be broken basekit for Killer, I think that would fix that outlier problem. I think current CoH is fair, as well as the rest of them (other than Dark Theory which IMO needs a buff). I personally had little to no problem against MfT users, but I am a variety Killer+Ghosty main. Them healing helps me so I get slowdown and instadown. As Surv, every time I wasn't facing a Knight or Doctor, I felt SB would have provided my playstyle more value.
P4: I am fine with the tomes that encourage positive behaviors (heal X states, progress X gens, emblem progress), its just open throw tomes I hate.
That's the thing though, the person WANTS to play and get their heal tome/daily, but Plague denies it.
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