The state of shift w in Dead by Daylight
Hi guys,
i played a lot less DBD in the past months because i felt really burned out and way too invested. Mostly because of all the changes happening to my two favourite killers. I felt like the game isnt being fun anymore, which is why i distanced myself.
However, during this event, i thought: lets finish the rift and bring little Sadako to p100. So I switched from 90% Elden Ring 10% other stuff to 50% Elden Ring - 20% DBD and 30% other stuff.
When playing, i mostly played with random builds on a variety of different killers. I played :
- Clown
- Pig
- Onryo
- Xenomorph
- Chucky
- Slinger
- Trapper
- Freddy
- Knight
- Spirit
- Nemesis
- Pinhead
- Singularity
- Bubba
Pig and Sadako a lot more than the others of course.
All these games, while containing a ton of different builds, maps, items, killers and playstyles had one thing in common.
Shift-w supported by sprint burst and lithe.
It did not depend on what character I played, survivors held w the moment they had the chance to do it. I totally understand, that some of the killers I mentioned, Xeno, Knight, Nemesis, Slinger, Chuchy and Clown have powers that are very oppressive in chase and therefore promote shift w and pre dropping.
The thing is, this type of behaviour did not only occur when I played these killers. Freddy (pallets), Pig (not even pre dropping), Pinhead, Singularity (i did not have soma family photo), Bubba and Sadako are absolutely loopable killers.
I have the feeling, that the general playstyle of just holding w until the end of the map or a super safe tile, is not only done because of the killers power, but because it takes minimal effort with maximum results. This of course being exaggerated by perks like sprint burst, lithe and overcome.
I really dont want this to come off as : killer player cant win because survivors play smart.
I play this game for chases mostly. Thats why I play Pig and Sadako the most. I enjoy m1 chases despite it being weak.
Shift w makes games a lot more boring for the killer and survivor both. Aggressive usage of this playstyle completely negatates a part of the game.
These are my thoughts. I feel like the game becomes more and more stale in terms of playstyles, perks, offerings, addons and items. I dont want pre 6.1.0 to return.
Can there be anything done to make this playstyle less popular? Do you guys see it similarly or am I just whining?
Leave your thoughts.
Comments
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Its because a lot of the new maps have really unsafe loops and you can waste more time by holding w then by trying to play around a unsafe loop and going down even faster. Nostromo, Toba, Greenville, and a lot of the new map reworks are just have really bad gyms or bad rng so its usually just safer to shift w to a window or just forward especially with the design of killers now being anti loop most of the time. That on top of the game having a huge uptick in tunneling is also a problem.
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Sadly it's effective strategy and a survivor tool thus You'd be hardpressed to find a lot of people demanding to nerf or remove it. (Btw nerf tunneling, only survs allowed to use working strategy /s)
I'd say it has to sray cuz of player agency and choice.
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You know, survivors adapt to numerous unsafe loops, smaller maps, nerfs to perks, etc.
Press w is just all around effective with all the anti-looping killer powers they built into the game now.
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But its also done on:
- Badham
- All McMillan
- All Autohaven wreckers
- All Coldwind
- Chapel
- Asylum
These maps have very strong structures and set ups. Despite this, shift w is really popular on these maps as well.
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Oh I don't know about that its effective not that effective if a survivor has been holding w and then uses lithe probably just best to go find someone else to chase pretty easy counter play to people holding w. On the contrary I hear about people demanding to do something about it all the time only difference between tunneling is W is a key you have to use to play the game there's no actual way of nerfing or removing it.
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But i said, its not just maps or killers.
I play Sadako on Groaning storehouse and people shift w all the time.
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Yea well its the same problem as tunneling for killers once you get in the habit of doing it you never actually learn how to play the game well. Even though it can be a decent strategy there is always the option of while in chase to look for a gen being worked on and transfer the chase to the next survivor which usually builds more pressure.
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The counter to small maps is not Shift + W. Quite the opposite. Because you easily find yourself in a corner with no way to avoid a hit then.
People hold Shift + W on every map. They did it on old Cowshed, they did it on old Eyrie of Crows, they did it on old Mother's Dwelling and look at how these maps are still played. Shift + W. The same goes for the Asylum, Groaning Storehouse and GoJ. All of these maps have strong loops. But why would you loop, when Shift + W buys you an 10 seconds after a pallet break and 15 seconds after a hit just for the killer to catch up again? You're in no danger as long as the killer isn't right behind you and you cannot mess up either.
That's why survivors play this way. It's just like tunneling. It's easy and highly effective. Both are terrible and both should be limited in some way. The question is: How do we do that for Shift + W? Stronger loops and bigger maps are not the answer. Just as killers without chase powers aren't. I mean, look at Myers. His chase power is terrible and people still hold Shift + W against him.
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But doesnt your point here negate your previous statement?
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I agree with most of what you said except even on small maps you can still just turn a corner and continue holding shift w again. Also if you are somewhat decent at looping you can waste the killers time for minutes on end holding w is not going to get you a 3 minute chase. Even with throwing all the pallets now no one is going to have resources and you are still going to go down around any unsafe loop you throw a pallet at.
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No point still stands its a decent strategy but learning how to loop is always better. Holding W only gets you so far but if you learn to loop effectively as a survivor you can hold a killer for minutes on end. Its also the same when playing killer and tunneling it doesn't work at high mmr because people get better at looping and wasting your time and if you never learned how to spread pressure you are going to lose. By high mmr I am not counting comp play since that's a whole different game you aren't even playing dbd anymore.
- All McMillan
- All Autohaven wreckers
- All Coldwind
all these maps have been reworked btw.
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Your first statement was:
Which is: new killers and maps promote shift w over looping. I do not disagree with this. Chucky, Xeno, Knight and Skull Merchant do encourage shift w over looping AND newer maps have weaker loops and structures.
Please tell me im wrong in case that I misinterpreted it.
However, as I pointed out, it is done on every map against every killer.
You agreed with this and said, that survivor players, just like killer players grow more accustom to simpler strategies when they realize that it works very well.
With this, you basicly said, that its mostly done becuase it works. Not specificly becuase of newer maps or killers. This is what i refered to and what I also said in my original post:
"I have the feeling, that the general playstyle of just holding w until the end of the map or a super safe tile, is not only done because of the killers power, but because it takes minimal effort with maximum results. This of course being exaggerated by perks like sprint burst, lithe and overcome."
Its simple and effective. Thats why people do it. Similar to tunneling, as you pointed out.
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Regarding your edit:
These realms, despite being reworked, still house some of the strongest survivor maps in the game with some of the strongest set ups. Reworked or not, maps like groaning storehouse, ironworks, coal tower, gas heaven, blood lodge and others still offer very strong variations with extremely good set ups and main buildings.
This is reflected by the amount of map offerings used for these realms.
On top of this, the reworks have been there for a long time now.
There are only few maps that have not been reworked yet.
Swamp being one example.
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Yea its done for both they go hand in hand. Some killers its more effective because they are oppressive and them some killers its less effective. If im going against slinger or huntress im not holding w. If im going against xeno, artist, or singularity im holding w the best counter play to those killers are walls and getting to a window before they can hit you. Then comes the map reworks its even unsafer against certain killers due to the nature of the loops.
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They also house some of the worst setups now. Just curious what is your killer to survivor ratio?
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On small maps, the chances for the killer to cut you off are a lot higher. This is why it doesn't work as well on smaller maps. Well, mostly. Midwich is still fantastic for holding Shift + W because you can only follow the same path the survivor uses. As long as you don't play Nurse that is.
The problem isn't just that Shift + W is done without using any resources. It's more like they use a window or pallet to gain a bit of extra distance and now the killer has to spend 10 seconds minimum to catch up again before the survivor actually has to loop and repeat the process. This often happens as a means to get to the shack from anywhere on the map. Which is a problem because more often than not, weaker killers cannot spend the time to play around shack. And they are also the ones that are most affected by Shift + W. So they are screwed no matter what. The one perk that actually helps with this (STBFL) was nerfed considerably but it's still the tool against Shift + W simply because there is no alternative.
A killer that allows you to loop them for 3 minutes does something wrong. Either they don't notice that whatever set up you're using is way too strong or they play bad, so that is not really a counter argument to the strength of Shift + W.
May I ask, what you call unsafe loops here? Because there are only very few examples of loops where you'd get hit, if you drop the pallet and run away. Like the old Ormond tables (don't know how that area is any more interesting now than it was before but that's a discussion for another day). Even on weaker loops that can be mind gamed without much of an issue, you still get a bit of extra distance. That is easily enough for you to get to the next loop.
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Definitely an issue I notice a lot. As you said some perks exacerbate this but it’s a core issue as well even without perks. Generally speaking this is why large maps are bad design as they encourage hold w game play. Shift w is significantly reduced on smaller maps as it forces interaction with the killer.
Against good survivors, especially on coms they know how strong this is. “Left me”, “he’s coming!” Every gen you walk towards before you even “start” a chase you lose 10+ seconds at least to catch up. That’s at least 30-40 seconds lost when multiplied to other survivors also gaining that time and you see why it’s so effective.
Solution? Shrink maps to force interaction of who’s better. Also, increase LoS blockage. An issue many maps have is they can see you coming a mile away, that's bad design. This is another reason I personally like indoor maps as the line of sight blockage can many times prevent knowing which way to hold w.
There’s not really counter play you can do yourself other than bring stealth perks to prevent their heads up. However, like I said earlier swf negates all this as well anyway and now you’re also going down the rabbit hole of inefficient perks.
As much as survivors hate it, this is also why killers 3 gen. It makes the survivors come to you more and reduces the hold w (as much as you can anyway). Most killers don’t have enough map mobility or pressure in their design and are forced into 3 gens.
Post edited by Blueberry on5 -
Where is an awful set up on groaning storehouse?
I genuinely despise the original variation and the new one doesnt make it any better.
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Unsafe loop to me would be the numerous ones at at ormond or that type basically a filler pallet. short wall jungle gym if ran the wrong way can also be a bad tile but then a good one if ran the right way very strong, but mostly im talking about 50/50 pallets not ones that actually require skill on both sides.
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This is a really good take.
However, less line of sight would drastically weaken killers like Huntress, dont you think?
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My ratio is 80% - 20% , Killer - survivor.
I play mostly Pig and Onryo.
As mentioned, I played a lot less in the last few months.
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Well that's the worst part it depends on the rng but even on groaning store house there's unsafe loops. Also the main thing about looping is chaining a lot of the new McMillian maps only spawn in ive seen as little as 8 pallets for a whole match. Or one side having multiple pallets and the other side of the map having literally none.
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The game has changed a lot in the last couple of months since October every patch almost has gotten maps completely reworked to suit killer better and for the most part its been pretty solid changes to make the maps easier for killer.
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Outdoor maps usually have less pallets than indoor maps. Groaning storehouse has one of the strongest main buildings in dbd, a truly awful size and gen placement and a lot of safe structures and tiles.
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I have played the game. I was heavily involved in the last updates. I play all Ptb´s.
I know about map reworks and new maps.
I just played a lot less public, because i got fed up with some players and the game overall.
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I mean I guess its not that strong vs most killers if you kick the breakable door it doesn't take long to chase someone down. All it has is one pallet and one window next to the breakable wall, and yea outdoor maps usually have less pallets but they are now usually only on one side of the map literally leaving you no option but to hold w because there's only one t l on one side of the map and 3 gens. They also added a bunch of new tiles that are very weak about as weak as t and l's. The amount of there's a lot of different reasons hold w i for one like to loop but to each their own.
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That‘s what happens when there is nothing left to do. All maps get made smaller, less pallets, less windows (most of them just not playable/unsafe) and all perks that supported something else got hard nerfed. People will adept to what is best and works the best.
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But you can absolutely loop Sadako on Garden of Joy
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I rarely play killers that don't have map mobility for this reason. Especially after billys fix. Hes one of the best for handling this kinda gameplay depending on the map. Its just the main easiest way to get value as a survivor without worrying about being hit. People will always steer toward the lowest risk easiest way to win. The problem is i cant foresee a way of them fixing it with just the killer and survivor movement speeds the way they are.
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I think a LT- wall is actually a very skillful tile. If played really well by a survivor, it can waste a lot of time. However, many survivors i play against dont know how to play it well and fall for the first mindgame. Thats also why most survivor leave the LT whenever they have the chance.
Again, I play m1 mostly. This tile becomes a lot weaker against stronger chase killers.
Guess this goes together with your point, that most people just stick to their comfort zone and rarely try to improve.
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I dont think it actually can be fixed. Maybe it could be discouraged in some way of form?
DBD is really great at promoting the easiest playstyles. Im honestly not suprised why so many people tunnel, camp, shift w or stealth with distortion.
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Yes you're correct, that is a very unfortunate side effect that I don't have a solution for. Just in general for "most" the game it would be better overall. Maybe those specific killers could get alternate improvements in other ways to compensate. Maybe most the LoS blockers are more "vision" and less actual like objects, so they could still theoretically make the hits, it would just be harder to see that far and maybe put more emphasis on aura perks for vision through them. Idk. Maybe you have some ideas?
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GOJ is in my opinion no good map for looping since its rework. My games as killers there are incredibly easy and as survivor the opposite. The main building is strong, but no killer will follow you there and the outside part is trash.
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I honestly dont think shift w has much of a solution in the current version of DBD. The best RIGHT NOW would propably be to change peoples mindsets. More looping, less shift w. This is hard because many people solely play to win and be the most effective possible. Comp doesnt help by promoting these playstyles.
Right now, the only win condition for survivor is escaping. This means wasting time of the killer for as long as possible. Time is wasted by:
- Looping tiles
- shift w
Sadly, running across the map without using any structure and going down in a corner wastes way too much time compared to looping well. This does not mean that looping wastes less time. A great looper wastes a lot more time than a survivor just running straight into a corner.
It also doesnt waste any resources like pallets. This in addition with how easy it is to pull off (literally just holding a single key with the occasional window vault to get lithe going) makes shift w undeniably effective and popular.
I think a complete overhaul of the game would need to happen. The survivor win condition would need to be linked to looping well instead of wasting the killers time as much as possible to finish gens. This would be very hard though due to many killer designs.
As you can see, a very difficult problem. Similar to swf, this might not have a solution at all. Making maps smaller is a way to make it better, but not only does the problem not go away, many people also dislike the shrinking of maps.
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The parking lot is very strong. There is a shack. Between both are filler tiles, a jungle gym and sometimes even mutiple strong tiles leading direcly into each other.
Personal experience is good and all, but the map is overall one of the worst killer maps in this game. The rework has barely changed anything.
Im glad your experience is better though.
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Kyto actually said he doesnt play DBD anymore because all survivors just hold W. And he has a DBD channel with 300,000 subs lol.
I love playing DBD but holding W is very boring. I like it when survivors are super confident and go for big plays. Sometimes they beat me and pop a Gen in my face and sometimes I beat them. Mindbreaker could help with the SB off gens problem.
I ran into a p400 lobby where they held W and it was azarovs with huge LOS zones. I just started slugging people out to gain pressure. I always had one person on the ground and I know they were bored out of their tree but hey, if they wanna bore me by W keying because they wanna win so bad. I’ll bore them by slugging to win. They gave up after 30 minutes of back and forth, they got to one gen left but it didn’t matter.
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Most of the time the maze tiles spawn without windows, where normally some should be and then you are screwed after realizing there is non. Overall break some pallets and it becomes a huge deadzone outside of main. Most times you can‘t even reach anything and hope for a window in those fake jungle gyms.
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bloodlust is 1 reason that shift-w is so prominent. the longer you stay at a tiles, the more you get bloodlusted. distance should be earned by pallet stunning the killer but it is not. safe tiles should not exist/extremely limited(with 1 entity blocker on said window). Windows should be possible to mindgame but provide the survivor significant distance if they guess right.
The ideal would be something like killer moves at 120% m/s so they're extremely dangerous outside of tiles but when survivor get to a tile and successfully stuns killer, killer loses -10% speed for 45 seconds that decays gradually. Windows need to be constructed in such a way that they work like T-L wall where if killer wins a 50/50, they get a hit on the window but if killer loses 50/50, the survivor can endlessly loop the killer with no entity blocker. So think of Gideon's T-L wall where T-L wall is big. The other issue is that gen-speed is too fast at base-kit(0 perks) when the killer is good at hooking. They can basically win every chase, makes little to no mistakes but still lose. Implementing a system where killer has no bloodlust, the killer gets punished for eating pallet stuns and you can get endlessly loops on windows with current gen speed would be killer instantly losing for 1 error. Survivor would be free win for single successful play. The killer needs margin of error. that would be ideal dbd.
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But isn't that the issue?
We counter boring stuff with boring stuff. The game should encourage survivors to make these big plays that might be risky but overall fun.
Same can be said for killer. It's often risky to go for many chases and not for a kill when possible. This however is mostly considered the fun way to play. Sadly, many people go for the simpler route and just tunnel one player out.
Dbd should encourage fun over efficiency. Optimally, the fun playstyles should become the most efficient playstyles.
Look at flashy safes for example. Is it efficient to go for a risky flashy safe? No. Almost never. The survivor going for one is not on a Gen, therefore delaying Gen progression for the team. It's fun though. That's why people still go for it.
Sadly, also the amount of people actually going for flashlights over toolboxes or med kits with very strong addons has drastically went down from my personal experience.
Conclusion: Dbd should encourage and support fun playstyles over boring ones and discourage boring gameplay.
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There are some killers that punish shift + W so you can always play those.
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IMO the fact that exhaustion perks that help with looping have been nerfed (DH) or were never really viable (Smash Hit) has been a major contributing factor to people using exhaustion perks that help with prerunning or playing distance. I've started favoring Balanced, or SB for hit avoidance (rather than distance) recently and never really used DH, but undeniably the DH changes have made the prerun playstyle more prevalent.
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I personally find slugging fun tho, just like survivors probably find W keying fun. We can’t stop them and they shouldn’t stop us to a degree. 4 minute bleed out is a problem tho.
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But what if i want to play Pig and Onryo?
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This mainly comes down to the fact that maps now have too many tiles grouped together, meaning that as soon as you try doing anything to mind game that requires the survivor to make a read or get hit, instead they can just abandon the tile rather than risk making a bad read.
Now this wouldn't be an issue ideally, because abandoning a loop is its own read, and a killer could bait a mind game expecting them to leave the loop, and theoretically would get a free hit. But loops and tiles are so close together that alot of times you can't even punish the survivor if you predict they will abandon the loop.
Doesn't help that windows of opportunity removes a lot of risk of them abandoning a loop for a tile that has no pallet or window. I'm not advocating for it to be nerfed, but it is a big reason why shift-w is so much more common now.
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I see this every time I do a break mindgame as Onryo (faking animation to trick the survivor to leave the tile). People fall for it, but it doesnt matter because they safely get to the next pallet in no time.
I genuinely dont know how to fix this.
Maps are smaller = more tiles close together, but the killer can get into chases faster.
Maps are larger = less tiles close together, but the killer cant get into chases fast.
Its a "pick-your-poison" - situation.
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Maps are smaller, loops are weaker, and most killers have an anti-loop ability (teleportation, dash, ranged attack, some sort of loop denial). There are a few maps where looping is better than just running in a straight line (Badham) but I think survivors are being conditioned to run in a straight line and that’s honestly the better strategy. Why gamble looping on Badham (GoJ has terrible loops outside of main) when you can hold forward on one of umpteen maps that has really bad loops? Holding forward doesn’t guarantee survival but it might be the difference between a 5 second chase and an 8 second chase. And within those three seconds a generator could be completed.
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It is difficult to keep any sort of proficiency in looping when you are not allowed to do it and you do not play that much. From the 14 killers you listed you can loop maybe 5 normally if they let you or if you get help from your mates in Singularity's case.
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But do you think its good for the game in terms of fun for both sides?
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Singularity without addons is perfectly loopable. The most he gets is a faster pallet break.
Pig is loopable. Sadako is as well. Both are getting shift w`d.
Its not just because of maps and certain killer powers.
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The maps are also a factor.
In the past most tiles in the game had potential for mindgames. There was no real reason to just drop the pallet immediately and keep running, this would be seem as a waste of resources.
But now, most things are unsafe. The game basically encourages survivors to hold W and pre-drop everything.
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