The devs could make this change to "Spine chill" to make it useful again
I realized that the problem with "Spine Chill" was the fact that it was useful in any game and in any situation, so a lot of people used it, this was due to the bonus in the actions that you got whenever the killer looked in your direction, so an idea What I thought could make spine chill more useful would be this:
-Buff: The perk detects the killer if he looks at you even through walls (as it was before the nerf)
-Nerf: whenever the killer looks at you, the speed of general actions will decrease (before it increased)
This way, the perk will be useful for less experienced players to avoid killers and stealth resources, however, if the killer doesn't have any stealth resources, the perk will become useless and even harmful, as it will slow down generators and other resources, causing that players who don't need it don't want to use it
Before the nerf, there was no situation where spine chill was not worth using, after the nerf it became completely useless, because it is not really effective at all, with my idea, whoever uses the perk will be able to avoid stealth moves, but at the cost of having your actions slower
Now that there is observation mode, the devs could test my idea, if it doesn't work they can revert it, but spine chill needs some adjustments, not only is it weak, but even those who put it in the build don't get any use out of it.
Comments
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Well, it certainly needs something. Frankly, I think making it work only when the killer has immediate line of sight (so you can see the killer too) was super strange. I think I only really saw newbie survivors using it before, but I don’t see anyone using it now. Once they removed the vault speed bonus it became pretty solid mediocre newbie perk. Now, like so many other survivor perks, it’s just bad. Premonition does its job better (Alert is better than both), and no one would argue that to be a good perk.
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true, I'm currently using "premonition" myself, but I liked "spine chill" because of the suspense factor it gave, like: everything is silent and the perk is active, I was like "oh my goodness, the killer is coming, where is he " with the nerf the perk lost some of that emotion, I think that this atmosphere that the old spine chill gave makes the perk more enjoyable to use
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The problem with this is that it still hard counters stealth killers, which was the issue with it in the first place.
The perk isn't in a very good spot right now but it shouldn't go back to countering stealth. It needs a new effect at this point because it's current one is either going to be useless like it is now or too good against stealth.
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To be fair it was the only counter to stealth killers… and no killer should be uncounterable. Taking SC was a gamble because survivors couldn’t know they’d be facing a stealth killer before entering a trial. It was less impactful against any killer with a terror radius which was why it did other things but hint that a killer was within radius. If it did only that, it would be extremely niche (countering only stealth killers to some degree because it still didn’t pinpoint precise location, just that the killer was nearby).
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I already knew that someone would come with this conversation and I already left a prepared response for it:
It's like the "Whisper" perk for killers, it's a very good perk for finding survivors, but no one uses it because the perk doesn't give any other extra benefits, I don't see any problem with there being a perk that reveals stealth killers, even because in swf people talk about where he's going, if that were the case, they should remove the surv's ability to see the aura of other survs while they're on the hook, because swf tell others which surv the killer is going to, spine chill is a perk for solo player , swf you don't need to use it1 -
Oh, you know stealth killers already aren't very strong, and still insist they need a counter? That's interesting.
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Yes, in addition, it is a perk, using it will take up space that could have an exhaustion or gen rush perk, it is not a base kit that everyone will be able to use, and there are people who even before the SC were nerfed I didn't like using it, that's why I think my idea might be worth a test at least
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Killers doesn't use whisper because it is extremely unreliable.
The real situation it works is pretty much only when last survivors standing, you don't know direction or anything for majority of the time, 32m range is ridiculously big to be a good enough recon perk.
This is not even a skill issue because to make it work, you need back and forth from many direction or else you are going wrong way.
The fact it works with hooked survivor is ridiculous too.
And not to mention the information value difference of survivors and killers, especially stealth killers.
stealth killers can't really seen that much neither, so SWF still don't know where they are most of time.
We don't need any hard counter for stealth killers because all of them are less than mediocre.
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Which is why it was poorly designed. Stealth killers are no where near powerful enough to have a perk hard counter them. Ghost Face in particular was hurt by it as you could barely stalk anyone with this perk and it just rendered you a powerless M1 killer. No killer should have counter play that extreme. The perk wasn't overpowered or anything, it was just very unhealthy.
No one uses Whispers because there are better tracking perks now. It doesn't do tracking that well at all unfortunately. BBQ doesn't give a bonus effect aside from tracking and it is one of the most used perks.
SWFs still couldn't tell that a Ghost Face or Myers was stalking them though. As I mentioned, no perk should hard counter someone to that extreme and especially not killers who are already low tier.
The rework was not the way should have gone. The main reason people used it was for the vault speed bonus, so maybe the should've just turned it into some sort of chase perk and scrapped the stealth aspect of it.
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why does this post begin with the phrase "the problem"
we don't talk about Plague by saying "the problem with Plague is that she counters healing builds," we don't talk about the legion by saying "the problem with Legion is they counter grouping up." why can we recognize that some killers are designed to accomplish certain tasks well and punish certain play styles, and accept that as good design, but when survivors have tools that work against certain killers, we start discussing it in the context of the "problem" it causes
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Because this user suggested a buff that I disagree with and was simply pointing out why I disagreed with it and what the issue with bringing it back was. I’m not pointing at the problem with Spine Chill, I’m saying that this suggested buff would be a problem.
There is no need to turn this into an us vs them. If someone had suggested bringing back Nurse’s old add ons or the original Eruption I would have said the same thing.
Don’t read too much into it, it’s not that deep.
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Your avatar suits you very well, so it means that a perk ends your game play, with most experienced survs ending the chase-based killer, and to show that you don't understand things, the current spine chill works with both Myers and ghostface, as they need to look at the surv to make the perk activate
If you were a less stressed and conscious person, you would realize that my idea is even helping these killers, because with the reduction in actions you would indirectly end up preventing a surv from completing a generator or even opening an exit gate, the spine chill currently helps these survs against these killers, so I created this idea thinking about both sides and prioritizing those who really need it
I'm going to use the "distortion" perk as an example, it's a perk that cancels the aura reading of survs, but not everyone uses it, there are people who think that putting it in the build takes away a perk slot for other things, besides running a risk of falling against a killer who doesn't even use this perk, think about it, do you really think that these changes I mentioned will make more experienced people want to use the perk expecting a stealth killer? I highly doubt it, only beginners would use it, and maybe even
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I disagree, before spine chill was nerfed, killers won, besides, killers lose to survs that loop well and not to stealth survs
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Pretty much all the stealth killer powers are solely based on not getting detected, of course they can win even with no power because some survivors just absolutely sucks, that doesn't mean allowing a SINGLE perk to hard counter the whole point of those already less than mediocre killers healthy for the game.
And if you didn't know, the difficulty to "loop well" solely depends on killer power, it's nigh impossible to "loop well" clown, it's absolutely easy to "loop well" stealth killers, simply because whole point of them is to deny the chase itself.
Oh also, if every survivors are goddamn good at stealth and killers can't find them, they do finish all gens intact and killers will absolutely lose without any chase, so yeah killers do lose to stealth survs, unless those stealth survs are also absolutely horrible one that doesn't even do gens.
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I’m just going to say agree to disagree and not bother anymore. We are just going in circles and I’m tired of discussing this.
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As others have already pointed out, yes Spine Chill needs a buff, but whatever that may be it can't work on stealth killers. Firstly because the devs have already said they don't want perks directly countering killers powers. Secondly because the stealth killers in the game are already extremely weak. They need all the help they can get.
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I hear alot of discussion regarding the problem with Spine Chill, is either
It punished stealth killers and makes them a worthless Stealth Killer. Or it punished any average killers for engaging in regular chases, and the spine chill users abuses the 6% extra action speed to give them a slight edge and a chance to fast vault the window or pallet faster then the killer can secure a hit.
I think stealth killers being punished isn't really a problem, as experienced killers that know how to counter this perk can simple look the opposite direction while moving towards the survivor’s direction; to fool it. It is bit sad that killers whom are supposed to be undetectable can still be somewhat revealed with lines of sight blockers and make the Survivor user have a plan to hide or get extra distance. More often then not, experienced survivors relie on the perks 2nd effect, which is the increase actions speeds to make their chase much better. That part is more broken and bit unfair for killers whom could have hit the vaulting survivor in time, but miss it due to a fraction of a second time difference speed.
As for what I would have to done to rework the perk, I would bring back one aspect and put Rework the other aspect to Spine Chill's cousin, Premonition.
Spine Chill shouldn't reveal any killers looking in their direction unless a clear line of sight is maded. And can have the increase actions speeds (like it used to)
Premonition could be reworked to be more like old spine Chill in revealing any killers under the undetectable status effect in looking in their direction, with and without line of sight cover. The perk can also reveal the killer aura, if they are within 4/6/8 meters of their location, while undetectable is in affect. Then it goes on a 30 second cooldown, before the aura reading can be trigger again.
Spine Chill would be great for any Killers, especially those with vault speed perks. And Premonition would directly counter killers with stealth based builds especially when sneaking up for ambush.
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Yes, I'm aware of this, I don't do things without thinking, even I already knew the opposition that some players would have, that's why I added the nerf to reduce the speed of carrying out actions as a counter to the use of the perk, I still believe that my idea won't be a problem for stealth killers because those who will use these perks are survs who don't know how to face these kills, those who know how to play well won't even use the perk because gen rush will be compromised with its use
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I don't think that drastic changes need to be made, in fact I'm afraid of the developers' decisions, but I realize that it's the fault of the community that exaggerates in crying, when they say they're going to nerf something, they say they're going to kill it, when they buff they say it's going to stay OP, that's why I wanted to see my idea tested in PTB, but there are people who even PTB are starting to complain, since nothing is definitive there.
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the way you say it, it seems like my idea will make the perk end the world, whereas the devs do much worse things, just test the idea on a PTB, OP, remove the idea, simple as that, PTB has to be used for testing, but there are people who take it too seriously, look at the people complaining about the Twins, of course they need to complain, but they certainly won't leave all the changes as definitive
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You don’t need perks to gen rush at all, so whether they run this or not has nothing to do with that.
The core problem with old Spine Chill wasn’t the action speed increase. The core problem was how it hard countered stealth killers. Your change brings back the original problem for its removal in the first place.
If you have another idea to buff it I’m open to that, but I don’t think this is the right change.
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So you want it to be hardcounter against stealthkillers again (the mainpoint why they nerfed it). I'm sorry but the slower actionspeed is no disadvantage in any form, you can hardcounter an entire branch of killers and there's basically never a reason you should stay if the killer directly looks at you for long enough that this hurts xDDD
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You're wrong, anti stealth was never a problem with spine chill, anyone who is experienced can play without it, the problem with spine chill was precisely the fact that it was good in every game, if there wasn't a stealth killer they would take advantage of it with the speed system, players did not use spine chill for anti-stealth, but rather for the fastest window valt combining with resilience
Without the boost bonus, few people will use spine chill, those who use it are those who don't know how to loop, there are many better perks nowadays, and no, I'm not going to create another idea, I've already had other ideas, but I think This already solves the problem that the perk had, which was that there were few reasons not to use it
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Exactly, I really want to, but you're wrong that the speed reduction doesn't make a difference, it really doesn't for you because you're a main killer, but it's the same thing as me saying that Nurse's fatigue isn't a big deal, but whoever plays with her you know how boring this is. I think it works, that's why I already said, I wanted to see it in a PTB, but I don't think veterans would use it, there are better perks for them
Another detail is that no one plays with stealth killers anyway, but that's not the fault of the perk, they need buffs or new powers
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You're wrong. We also can back this up by knowing that the devs specifically do not want perks to hard counter certain killers, as Spine Chill does with stealth killers. That is part of their balance philosophy. The fact that it hard countered stealth killers goes against their philosophy. While people did combine it with Resilience for vault builds, that wasn't the core problem.
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It could be that I'm actually mistaken (after all, I'm not the owner of the truth), but I have my reasons to believe that this isn't a problem, but anyway, I had said that I had another idea, which would be this one:
Spine chill:
-Buff: the perk activates whenever the killer looks directly at you or when he looks at you through aura reading, killer instinct or when you scream revealing your areaexplaining the idea: The spine chill warns you whenever the killer sees that you are there, the old "spine chill" sometimes warned the surv even without the killer knowing of his presence, with this change, the spine chill will only warn you when the killer is watching the surv
I thought this idea would make the perk still bad, at least it would give information for the survivor to be more attentive when the killer sees you through readings, not affecting killer stealth as much, what do you think of this idea?
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I'd be okay with that buff. So current effect and it basically just tells you when the killer is looking at you and you've been "revealed". Sounds fine to me. That doesn't directly counter specific killers and is more countering builds. That's fair.
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I believe biggest problem with old spine chill was it forced killer players with super awful counterplay which is moonwalk
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I think you are reading too much into what I said. I simply said I disagree with this buff idea.
There is nothing more to it. I don't think it would be the end of the world, disagreeing with you doesn't make me a 'stressed and conscious person', I simply disagree with your suggestion and gave you a reason why. I said to agree to disagree because we were just repeating the same points and it was clear we wouldn't agree.
Don't read too much into what I said, I simply just disagree with this idea. I think Spine Chill needs a buff but this isn't the way to go in my opinion.
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I'm sorry but still no: You want this perk to avoid the killer, means you will leave as soon as your perk aktivates or closely after, so as long as the lowered actionspeed isn't 10 or more percent you basically won't feel it. So it's not even enough downside to be felt in the slightest against the advantages. That's not even comparable btw because you have to go through the fatigue every blink-chain, besides that it's 2 or 3 seconds.
And just because they are rare it doesn't mean you should have a perk to hardcounter them, that's a logic without any sense.
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At this point, I'd rather see Spine Chill reworked into a light anti-aura perk.
Activates for 5 seconds each time your aura is revealed. Has a 15 second cooldown.
This tells you the killer can see you, not necessarily that the killer does see you, is looking at you, or that they're close.
This doesn't then exclusively hard-counter just stealth killers, it's useful but not OP against many killers who may be using aura/undetectable perks, of which we have a lot more these days. It would be like a lighter, generic Distortion.
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Yes, we have different opinions, perhaps because we play on different sides, I have already thought of other ideas to improve the perk in a less aggressive way towards stealth killers, but it seems that any idea I have will disagree with you.
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In the past I gave a similar idea, but it didn't necessarily hide the aura, but whenever the killer looked at you through aura reading, killer instinct or when you screamed, the spine chill would warn you
In the past I used "spine chill" to find out if the killer had a "barbecue"
& chilli " like if he looked at me there was a good chance he had the perk and was coming towards me0 -
Ok I understand, because of you I still don't play the game, right
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Well I can't say that I like to talk to people like you very much, so maybe it's for the better. Was a nice discussion, I wish you a great day! :P
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The translator translated it wrong, I meant that I'm not playing the game, because it's difficult to play soloQ, anyway, I understand your point, thanks for the feedback, good play to you
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Helping solo-queue and making an branch of killers useless is something else:
they have to do something to help maybe basekit-kindred or bond, but they shouldn't give perks that counter an entire branch of killers.
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No I won’t disagree with every idea of yours, just ones that unnecessarily hurt stealth killers.
Your idea about being alerted when your aura is shown is great.
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I actually posted this idea in the past, but it's a shame the devs didn't pay attention to it, I actually preferred this idea to the one I did in this post
I liked the old spine chill because of the suspense factor it gave, like it would light up and I didn't know where the killer was coming from, sometimes I would come face to face with him and he would hit me in the same way, but I understood what you meant, but I wanted her for that factor and not for her strength
Another perk that I had an idea to make a little better was the "call of brine", but I'm still thinking about how it could be...
One idea I thought of is that during the time that the perk is active in the gen, the speed of repairing the gen becomes slower, not much, but it would be an incentive to use it, I don't know if how much
the killers still use it, but I see it very little0 -
In fact, I wanted spine chill back more for the suspense factor that the perk gave, it activated and I didn't know if the killer was near or far, or where he was coming from, and when I tried to escape I would come face to face with him. ,
but I understand your concern and certainly many main killers would tell me that they would like the old "mement mori" to return, which killed with just one hook, only increasing its rarity, as a girlfriend of mine who promoted tournaments once said, I would say that even if only like this to have mori once a year there are unlucky survs who can face more than one killer with mori in a single day, there will always be criticisms of anything that can come back into the game
Maybe, if the one-hook mori would only work nowadays if the killer couldn't use perks or add ons, since survs have BT base kits, but it would still be strong, I just gave an example, so I'll respect your opinion against the SC, I even have other ideas that I mentioned in the post, you just have to see if you want and say what you think ^^
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The idea with the revealing through auras weren't bad. But it would be kinda like a bad object of obsession i think (sorry I don't know what it does at the moment, but I think it shows the killers aura if he see yours), so it wouldn't be very nessasary to have it a second time xD
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I absolutely loved not looking at a gen as i approached it and catching survs unaware because they were watching for spine chill rather than me.
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but people used spine chill not only to know the presence of the killer, but it gave speed in generators and in vaults, if the perk only notices the presence of the killer but not the speed, some people won't want to use it because the player prefers to use it chase perks
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Undetectable was added so stealth killers are actually stealthy even against stuff like Object. A perk that can reveal undetectable killers through walls very far away is silly.
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i desagree
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more or less, object of obsession only works if the killer is not undetectable, and only with aura readings, as my idea involves killer instinct and screams too, of course it has the disadvantage of not being able to see the killer, just knowing that he is watching you
I honestly think you exaggerate this logic about stealth killers not having counter play while swf are a spine chill base kit, even on the day I'm writing this, I watched a group of people playing winstreak and they said where the killer was going and if he it was activating power, spine chill is more of a perk for soloQ and not for swf, they only used it because of the boost
The last idea I thought of was that the spine chill would be exactly as it was before the nerf, but it would have a usage limit: for example, you have 15 tokens and every time the killer looks at you, you lose a token every second, If the tokens run out, the perk deactivates, it could be activated in some specific way, like when this surv is hooked for example
The same analogy of perks like "distortion" and "lucky break" I remember that these two perks had several complaints from main killers, but everyone complains about buffed perks on opposite sides, when I give ideas to improve killer perks the same thing happens , blood echo for example, I think it needed a buff, like activating when a generator is completed for the perk to be useful during a chase, do you understand?
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Not having counterplay and being hard-countered by a single perk is a difference. Stealth-killers have enough build-in counterplay like soundcues and specific things you could see (mostly the straps by ghostface). If you're attentive in any way they shouldn't surprise you too much, they aren't really strong.
And yes you're right they hard-countered by swfs, and that's not a reason to give solo-queue a hard-counter too. That's more a reason to buff them lol.
To the buff/rework-ideas:
Well it's kind of useless to only know that he's watching you:
Instincts are pretty easy to know because they are just in specific cases.
Screams are even easier.
And for aura you could use distortion and you even hide your aura.
The idea with tokens is okayish, but depents on the requirement to activate in the end
And lastly:
I don't have a problem with distortion or lucky break, both of them are okay as they are now. People crying about that 2 perks are just as funny as people complaining about lightborn lol xD
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In my opinion, no killer in the game should depend on stealth for their main power, it should be an extra, stealth killers should have a power that is useful in chasing, Ghostface for example, if he can't take advantage of the exposure in time, he becomes a M1 killer.
I thought it was kind of rude that you said that "just because swf has solo resources they don't need to have" it passes
the impression that you want to use soloQ to win your matches, a bit selfish, you know.The idea of the token would help at the beginning of the game and I doubt that we would see 4 survs using the perk in every game.
The "lightborn" is like unbreakable, we
you only miss it when you need it, hehehe,0 -
Some people like the playstyle of being stealthy. As you can see on skullmerchant, stealth is a ability most people hate killers to have as an bonus on top. Besides that ghostface is in the films pretty bad in chasing too, so they are lore-accurate at that point, He's just stealthy. (That's a point I only add because there are some people that play him because of his character).
You can say it's rude if you want, it's not changing the fact for me that you shouldn't get a hard-counter against stealth-killers. They have counterplay on their own and just because one group can ignore it and destroy the balance with it, it shouldn't mean we all should be able to do this. They have it rough enough, they don't need to be even weaker.
And I never said I wasn't selfish, I camp and tunnel too. Is it nice? Nope probably not, but I won't handycap myself for people I don't know and probably won't thank me.
So your token-idea makes their early-game even harder, even if that's the phase that's most relevant for a match (at least a big amount of times)
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It doesn't need to detect through walls, it was it's biggest issue and made stealth pointless. It will only force more people to just play the top tiers and run regression instead.
Buff it for open spaces if it must be buffed, but don't give survivors free information. And before anyone says 'But whispers-' Whispers works inside a LARGE radius and doesn't mean you know the survivor is right next to you, it detects survivors on hook, and don't forget there's 4 survivors to 1 killer.
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