DS's 5 second stun was never complained about before it was nerfed -- so why now?

the thing is , while am totally okay about making the perk usable with 5 seconds stun because 3 seconds was a total joke on the average solo q matches were people waste resources like candy, they haven't fixed one of the most annoying and unfair part of the perk with this BUFF:

"still can be used aggressively by some players to the point were the killer is going to be forced to tunnel and eat a DS when they have no choice …like when people use their DS just to tank a hit with bt basekit- OTR and them get away with that easily because if you pick them up you get punished by that and don't make the argument that the killer MUST WAIT 60 - 45 SECONDS AVERAGE TO HOOK THEM THATS JUST SILLY survivors can repair 3 gens during that time pretty quickly.

MY SUGGESTION: make it so the perk disables collision with the killer while any endurance effect its active or just make it so it removes collision while active, that's it.

I hate when people use their DS like that and them, they complain about getting tunneled, like bro just go away let me chase someone else.

Actually, doubleposting a bit, I vaguely remember Otz and Scott complaining about the duration, but the bulk of the argument was that people could do gens in your face with it.

I actually saw fewer complaints about that than I did the stun duration, being that the duration felt miserable to sit through every time a bully squad forced you to tunnel them via bodyblocks or CJ techs.

Though the #1 complaint was being able to pop a gen in the killers face after they ate a DS because inconspicuous actions weren't a thing.

I feel like the bulk of ds complaints was that it was just too good. It was 60 seconds of invulnerability to do what ever you wanted. A lose-lose for the killer.

>Chase them - eat ds.

>They're doing gens in your face - eat ds.

>You down and hook another survivor but find them again - eat ds

It absolutely needed a nerf, but all of those at once pretty much killed it. Hell, I remember people suggesting that you should be able to use it multiple times per match because it was that bad.

Though, the wild disparity between killers doesn't help. Against Nurse and Blight, it's an empty perk slot. This up coming version has a meaningful stun, but with multiple conditions that stop it from being oppressive.

I've seen this suggestion a few times... and the one issue with it... is your fast killers can deliberately run in the survivor and do a "DS check". No collision? Free to tunnel.

Might be fine because OTR is a thing, but the perk loses value because killers can check you before they tunnel you.

I was expecting a 4 second and an additonal 4 second power disable instead of a flat 5. It would mean Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Hillbilly get hit a little harder, compared to the likes of Pig, Freddy, Myers, Trapper, etc.

But the 5s is probably fine, its not that easy to weaponise... it can still throw a game attempting to misuse it.

Simply because they used to tunnel out of the game very early making their matches easier. Now will be harder to tunnel out especially if the player is decent and if eventually kill that player you have lost the game.

It's an inconvenience for tunneling killer.

You joined March 2023, well after the DS nerf. How do you know?

but people do the same with OTR , if the survivor is making no injure sounds after unhooked the killer already knows that OTR is in play so i dont see the issue is not like a survivor will intentionally ran into the killer to let them know about not having collision unless the survivor is just dumb , just get to a pallet or window simple.

Steam discussions and Reddit, as well as playing survivor and being teamed with 2-3 man bully squads at the time.

Also, general research into the game that has little to no information in game will expose you to the issues of the game. Videos, mostly. I refrained from joining the forums for this long because of situations like this.

Yeah, and when I joined in, I did the same, and encountered none of that. I came in shortly before DS got its actual conspic action nerf, and there were -no- complaints about offensive use after the conspic action nerf.

There were complaints about its use in general, definitely, with tunnelling addicts being upset that they shot themselves in the foot, but nothing about DS bodyblocking.

I don't know if you weren't looking in the right places then, because I DEFINITELY remember people wanting DS nerfed and rejoicing when the changes came through.

Oh, every change will have someone cheering on the sidelines. Tunnel-junkies would rejoice for any DS nerf.

But that is different from DS being a problem to non-tunnelling killers.

And I explained why it's a problem to non-tunneling killers, yet somehow it doesn't get through despite carefully explaining it.

I don't even know why it's a bad thing to say we shouldn't promote using anti-tunnel perks to go on the offense while finding a solution that benefits both sides and all MMR ranges.

And I explained why it's a problem to non-tunneling killers, yet somehow it doesn't get through despite carefully explaining it.

Likewise, I've explained why it's not a problem to non-tunnelling killers, but that doesn't get through either, despite carefully explaining it.

I don't even know why it's a bad thing to say we shouldn't promote using anti-tunnel perks to go on the offense while finding a solution that benefits both sides and all MMR ranges.

Because it takes BHVR two years to change a 3 back to a 5 and the forum killers are at it again, throwing out the anchor and clamouring to have it undone, inventing once-in-a-blue-moon scenarios to try and paint the perk as a problem.

Tunnelling is the issue that killers have been digging their heels in on the most. It's been a problem since the game's inception, but we're going to massively overanalyse a perk that historically stopped being a problem after the conspic action nerf, minus the EGC activations.

'Anything but DS', and once DS is off the table, it's straight back to 'no solution warranted'. And then we can go another two years without anything being done.

I've been here for as long as DS has had its deactivation conditions. No one complained about DS being a problem to non-tunnelling killers.

Again, as I have explained it a ton now, it's not JUST DS.

It's DS/OTR/UB being used offensively that's an issue. Buffing DS doesn't fix tunneling against most M2 killers and punishes M1 killers stuck with overly-altruistic survivors running this build.

I've even seen killers claim 3 gens and facecamps were 'once in a blue moon' and we know that ain't true.

I didn't say anything about OTR and pre-nerf DS…?

Anyway, look, you can at LEAST agree that locking a perk that's supposed to help survivors avoid being tunneled behind a licensed chapter is a bad idea right? Regardless of any builds DS can be paired with?

The conspicuous action nerf was tastefully done and it was only every 5s to counter enduring reducing all stuns, so changing it to 3s was never really that bad except for middle of the pack players who weren't smart enough to use it synergistically instead of relying on the perk to do all the work itself

Changing to 5s doesn't really fix the top end problem of the perk against high tier killers but does make it much better for middle of the pack survivors and against killers who don't have mobility

Did I say DS/OTR/UB was being used or is and will be this entire time?

Was. As per the topic.

And going forward, we're probably going to end up with a similar meta as to before the shakeup: Anti tunnel/bodyblock perks and strong regression. And that's me hoping I'm wrong about the bodyblocking. Not looking forward to that.

OTR might need a fix, but it needed one from day 1. DS wasn't the problem.

So I just say overall I am fine with DS being 5 secs but I still don't like this buff for the same reasons as Otz has been very vocal about. I'm not going to list all of them since they are the same reasons as Otz and he has talked about it in a tweet, on his discord, and in today's video which I share since I think it's a great video. That said I will talk about a few of the things. This buff may look good on paper but it's just a short-term fix, and honestly heavy limits the devs when comes to the future of the game. Also, we just going back to the days before the meta shake-up where every survivor build will just have DS in it with most likely UB and DH. Not really fun for either the killer or the survivors imo. Lastly its the fact that a anti-tunnel perk are going to be tied to dlc perks. So this DS update isn't going to help newer players at all bc if the killer catches on that a survivor is new to the game(either by how they acting in the match or just looking at their hours in stream before the match) they will tunnel them out bc the chances that they have paid $5 for DS are pretty low. The better way was at least to rework DS and move its effect to one of the useless free perks Survivor has like This not Happening. Then at least everyone has access to a anti tunnel perk.

There are other reasons but I really encourage everyone to watch Otzs video today on the DS buff:

Also, you see that nowhere in this video he is saying that tunneling should be encouraged, he just saying that there are much better ways to stop tunneling and the buff to DS is just the easy way out for the devs. I agree with him when he says around the 10:07 mark: "I'm sure many other people have told them that they could make some changes to make the anti-tunneling experience better for everyone not just for some players and instead they chose to do the simpler, lazier, more shortsighted option."