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Tunneling deserves consequences (a mechanism to punish), don't you agree?
Apart from camping, which is easier to penalize, we also need punishments for players who consistently engage in tunneling. There are two styles of tunneling that I've encountered:
- The killer may or may not camp, but they always target the first survivor, relentlessly forcing them to die by any means, before proceeding to play normally with the remaining three survivors. This tactic is aimed at tipping the trial in their favor. They exclusively focus on the first survivor.
- The killer may or may not camp, but they systematically tunnel survivors one by one until the trial concludes.
Some of the most trashiest tunneling tactics I've encountered include:
- Wraith: He goes into stealth mode and lurks in a corner (the dirtiest form of camping) until a survivor attempts a rescue, then suddenly appears to resume tunneling the rescued survivor. Alternatively, he may ignore a survivor he's currently chasing just to stealth and target that unhooked one again.
- Pig: Similar to Wraith, she crouches and hides near the hook, waiting to do her rushing and resume tunneling.
- GhostFace and Shape: Relying on the ability to hide or a small terror radius to execute tunneling.
- Hag: She sets traps near hooks to facilitate easy tunneling.
- Chucky: He uses the Insidious perk, hiding near the hook to resume tunneling.
- Unknown: Leaving a hallucination near the hook to make tunneling easier.
- Clown: Almost as bad as camping, he searches around the hook until a survivor attempts a rescue, then throws his bottle at the hook and resumes tunneling.
- Trickster and Deathslinger: Similar to Clown, but using their gun and knives.
- All other killers who can quickly close the distance (such as Blight and Spirit) to swiftly reach the hook and resume tunneling.
Encountering these tactics often makes matches feel exhausting, frustrating, and ultimately a waste of time.
Have any of you experienced this in The Fog?
Surely, there must be some mechanism for punishing this tunneling, right?
Comments
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no. just no. why survivors never get punished when they are doing their objectives but killer should be punished?
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They should be punished for tunneling, but not in a way that affects non tunneling killers, which is what is going to happen.
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"Tunnelling" is the act of a player choosing who to chase and when. You can mitigate the effectiveness, but you can never remove it or punish a player for exercising the agency the game has given them.
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Do we also punish survivors for playing too efficient?
We don't need to "punish" everything a killer does. It's better to limit the effectiveness of certain strategies to make them more situational and provide alternatives.
Especially the latter is very important. Because right now, even tunneling through a 5 seconds DS would be more efficient than hooking different survivors. I mean, what is better, going through an extra health state and spending a few more seconds catching up but eliminating someone at 3 hooks or going for 6 chases and not having anyone dead? The latter takes a lot longer and the payoff is a lot less.
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Tunneling deserves a greater cost, so yes.
It should remain a viable option, but it shouldn't be a surefire way to secure a victory.
No single tactic should.
We nerfed SM so holding a 3 gen for 59 mins wasn't a guaranteed win, we nerfed Sadako so she couldn't slug everyone to condemn them to death. Tunneling is a trickier tactic to tackle, but it should still be nerfed in some way.
If there was something survivors could do with as significant an effect on the game as a killer eliminating a survivor at 5 gens, we'd all be clamouring to nerf that too.
Things like basekit BT, and perks like DS help, but unless everyone runs them, they're not really good enough. A killer who decides to eliminate a survivor early should have to trade something else for it. Just like how a survivor rushing gens at the expense of rescuing their team mates often finds themselves down a couple teammates unnecessarily.
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ya exactly, if the survivor is just show them up, so it is not the intentional tunneling.
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About "the game has given them", so survivors have the right to only hide somewhere, not do gen, and make the trial last for so long, right? I mean, ya, the game doesn't prevent the killers from doing that act, but it makes the game have no e-sportiness. If the unhooked survivor just shows them up again in front of the killer, ya it's their own mistake, but if the killer does tunnel with intent, it's a bad play and should be punished. The survivors who do nothing should also be punished.
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Sure, as soon as we add a punishment to survivors for doing gens too efficiently.
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There is a very big difference between efficiency and trick. If a survivor plays so efficiently, this is because they're good at their skill (looping, stunning, blinding...). We should punish survivors who have no gut to do gen or rescue. I've met so many who only hide somewhere, do nothing, wait for their teammates to die, and then escape through the hatch. We shouldn't punish the ones who play well.
About killer, I've faced many who can kill the whole team without any trick (camping & tunneling), even just using normal add-ons. That is because their skill are so great, they know what to do, and how to leverage their perks and skill set. Only killers who have no skill must do tricks like tunneling or camping just to have at least 1 death for sure.
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I don’t think tunneling should be ‘punished.’ I do however believe if it ruins the experience for players, those players should.. well, abandon the game. Don’t participate in something that brings misery.
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Should increase timer for DS to 90s like otr.
That's all really.
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Spreading out on gens and ignoring any and all side objectives (healing, hex totems, killer powers) as well as Shift + W do not equal skill. All of these are extremely easy to do but highly efficient. The only risk is doing them at the wrong time. Which is what I would like for tunneling as well.
There is a place and a time for everything. Only in case of tunneling, it's currently the go-to way to play killer, which I would very much like to change. This is however not done by punishing killers.
If you regularly play with survivors that only hide, then that implies that you play with people that really aren't good at the game. More experienced survivors often stick to gens even when the killer is right next to them.
That second part really shows a lack of experience on your part. You clearly don't know how little time a killer actually has when survivors really know what they're doing. A Nurse can keep her chases short enough to keep up with such a pace (though even that is debatable, when survivors play on a high level) but most killers can't. Which is why slowdown is the meta. But even with the best slowdown perks you come across survivors that progress too fast for you.
I mean, you see how the best killers play. So it's disingenuous to claim that only players without skill must tunnel or camp.
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The answer to your question is no. Doing nothing but hiding, refusing to do gens? That's holding the game hostage, which is against the rules. Choosing who to chase and when, in a game that is primarily about choosing who to chase and when, is not against the rules.
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Sorry for the wall of text lol it started out short and kept going.
At one time survivors did have something similar, just not basekit. The problem was they could be used in the beginning of the game just like tunneling, except they were stronger in working too quickly. Old BNP's. While I think they deserved a nerf, they were one of the things survivors had that could be used late game to turn a game around, or to combat tunneling. Though back then there were a lot of things that could help with that.
I think a comeback mechanic could be good for both sides but both should have heavy consequences at the beginning of the game if using it. I just don't really have any good ideas on that ATM that wouldn't be abuseable.
Punishing early game pushing could possibly help. Something like, putting the same person into multiple hook stages in a row, could increase the speed at which gens are done by a significant factor, for each hook stage. The penalty could be removed when a separate survivor is hooked, not downed, because they'd just slug the person trying to help someone who is being tunneled. If survivors leave someone on the hook until second stage to force the penalty on a killer, the 3 survivors not hooked will receive a speed debuff as consequence. They will lose the debuff after being downed. This could also be a gen speed debuff or aura's shown as well.
For survivors, completing one gen could add a significant slowdown penalty that gets heavier as they work on a second gen. While not on a gen the penalty will begin to lower. Doing a totem, chest, save, body block, heal, etc... could remove or lessen the penalty. This might help killers who have problems with 3 gens being done in the first chase. They would know survivors probably aren't running directly to another gen afterwards. If they did head straight to a gen they'd be basically fighting through a super version of dying light and thanataphobia. The penalty should also apply to everyone working on the gen, even if only one person has the penalty active.
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Tunneling should be made to be less efficient, but I wouldn't call it a 'punishment'.
For example, if hook stages were matched to gen speeds and were 90 seconds per hook stage that makes both camping and tunneling less efficient, but isn't punishing anything.
Just making that change alone makes pressuring survivors off gens a bigger priority than standing around camping furniture. Waiting at the hook is guaranteed to lose more gens, and if tunneling isn't a guaranteed win people will automatically do it less.
I'm 100% convinced that most killers don't understand the concept of pressure. They think 'pressure' and automatically assume that means camping a hook or making sure every gen on the map is regressing at once. Pressuring survivors means having one in chase, one on hook, and one going for rescue.
Most killers seem to play to occupy exactly one survivor and leave the other 3 to do whatever they want (it's gens), and then scream about how fast gens go. Yes, you just left them alone and chased one guy for 7 minutes and called it a 'strategy'. Usually while also screaming to nerf everything for survivors so your 7 minutes can be 5 minutes instead, which isn't the problem here.
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I've always thought that repair speeds should scale dynamically with both survivors eliminated and gens completed.
Each completed gen decreases global repair speeds by 5%.
Each eliminated survivor increases global repair speeds by 10%.
This acts as a two-way snowball dampening mechanism for both tunneling and genrushing, and equalls out at 1 survivor/2 gens, and 2 survivors/4 gens.
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tunneling is always going to happen. quite honestly I'm indifferent to it as a survivor, especially considering they're removing the de-pipping system. no harm done to my rank, therefore no need to punish a killer for what they consider the best move during a game. some people will just play like that- just as some people will camp.
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No i do not think killers should be punished for killing survivors.
They should give more opportunity for survivors to respond to it instead.9 -
Because when killers get to a higher mmr from tunneling and start getting stomped on they start complaining about everything else. I dont mind getting tunneled honestly because I can hold my own but then I get killers who dc because they arent as good as they thought they were. The problem with tunneling is its a bad habit to fall into and not needed to even win games. It would be like if every survivor could find a brand new parts sitting in the map randomly and using them over and over.
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?? Why survivors do gen should be punished?? Doing gen is the survivors' job, bro!! However, the survivors who do nothing should be punished. I've met so many survivors who have no gut to do gen or rescue, only try to hide somewhere.
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They would never punish someone for doing what they are supposed to do, killing. Would survivors be punished for doing gens? Very strange. Survivors have basekit BT now and there are perks like DS and OFTR to help also just like killers have gen regression. That is enough.
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Survivors are punished for doing gens.
If you refuse to let go of a gen while your team mate is on the hook, they die and your chances of survival go down.
If you refuse to let go of a gen while the killer is coming towards you, you'll get hit or even hooked.
The idea is that a similar trade off exists for tunneling. That by focusing down one survivor, you lose pressure on the others who are free to repair gens. This trade off is what allows tunneling to be a valid and fair tactic.
The problem is this trade off isn't anywhere near as equivalent, and typically isn't enough of a factor to prevent a snowball and a guarantee d4K.
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Tunneling has been and still is the most effective way to win which is why so many killers do it. It provides more pressure than any perk could. I don’t think tunneling will ever leave simply because the value is worth any stun a DS or OTR could bring. It’s not right to blame killers for playing as efficiently as possible, though there should be a level of some accountability there because people know how powerful it is and actively do it, but it’s on the Devs for not incentivizing hooks over kills. I think if tunneling impacted gen speeds, it would be fair for both sides. If a survivor is hooked consecutively then gens get a repair speed buff, making them take a short time to complete. If hooks are spread amongst survivors, gens get a repair speed nerf, making them take longer to complete. This doesn’t take tunneling away but it no longer is the most optimal way to play, and it increases the chance of all survivors getting to play. Killers should be rewarded for hooks and right now they’re not.
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Absolutely. As long as survivors that attempt to body block with their basekit borrowed time or flashlight blind at every pallet get punished too.
Especially don't forget those who make sure they get downed in a dead zone or high up area while running Boil Over. Those players need to be banned.
Of course, I am not serious, but my point is that, as much as I hate tunneling when I play as survivor, I do when I play as killer sometimes see where it needs to be done. I don't go out of my way to do it every time, in fact I try to avoid doing it, but sometimes it happens, and no I do not agree that there needs to be any "punishment" integrated into the game.0 -
It doesn't matter what you suggest, I've made countless posts in the past about tunnelling. The only conclusion I've come down to is that BHVR want tunnelling to be apart of the game just like camping and only when it is seen in over 90% of games will they do something that slightly deters killers from doing it, only to make it a viable mechanic once again a few updates after.
It's just a tactic to make both sides of the player base happy to keep drip feeding escapes.
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generators don't feel bad for being the first one completed
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Take away the killer's free will, unbind WASD if they don't hook every survivor sequentially
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I disagree. Instead, give them incentives not to tunnel. Killers should receive extra BP or some sort of Bloodlust stack that works like STBFL. Hell, why not both?
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I think the risk should equal the reward, which is why I'm in favor of 5 second DS.
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It used to be equalized. Before gen times were increased and so many perks were nerfed, survivors could punish both tunneling and camping by rushing gens. Obviously that doesn’t work anymore but it definitely was a strategy back in the day.
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Tunneling does have a consequence though and it's up to the players in the match to make it hurt as much as possible via perks/actions. A lot of the issues are survs just unhooking in front of the killer, unhooking too early, or unhooking too late. It's rare for people to come take hits against m1 killers for you. Basekit bt really stopped people from thinking about when to unhook. More people should consider bringing BT, FTP, WMI, and other related perks to give your teammates a chance instead of playing for a solo out.
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The killer can feel quite bad when generators fly. Do survivors take pity on the killer? Do they actively go out of their way to make sure not to complete their objective too fast for the sake of the killer’s feelings?
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or do they? let that sit for a second
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ya, I really agree, maybe because my title is misleading, but what I mean is that I want to have a suitable mechanism to make the game interesting and have a sporting spirit for both sides. 😎
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I do think that the best thing for the game in the long term is some sort of mechanic to deincentivise Tunneling. Face camping and Deliberate 3 Gens were already killed for the most part, I don't think Tunneling will make two more years before the devs try something to fix it.
What they'll come up with I have no clue, but hopefully it's handled well.
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ya totally agree, it's a good idea, bro. 😎
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You should read the reply of a guy named "AmpersandUnderscore" above. It's clearer for you.
How do you think if a survivor always ignores teammates (even if they're on the hook), just focus on running or hiding somewhere, waiting for all teammates to die then escaping themself via the hatch? On the killer side, camping and tunneling also ignore the other survivors, just focus on 1 survivor until they have a certain death. It makes that survivor have no chance to enjoy the game, and the killer also has no chance to protect 7 gens, then screaming about why survivors do gen so quickly.
The two guys named "hermitkermit" and "OrangeBear" above also have a better idea than my title.
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As my reply to "Xernoton" above, it's about the skills, bro. Even a bully team can't beat down a very good killer who doesn't need to camp or tunnel or red add-on to win the trial. Watch some YouTubers or Tornament and you'll see that.
It's ok when tunneling if you just want to challenge yourself with a very good survivor, you don't care about the gens or winning, just want to play Tom & Jerry with them, that releases your adrenaline. But it's really bad to play if you do it as a trick to win, it has no e-sportiness, especially when you face low-rank survivors (even without a party).
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In all honesty, camping was a much bigger problem than tunneling as there was no real way to counter camping until recently. There are perks and ways to prevent tunneling from happening still, such as DS, looping the killer well and timing your pallet drops well to gain more ground away from the killer, survivors breaking hooks that are close to a killer carrying a survivor, and possibly other ways that I haven't mentioned. And it can already be punishing to tunnel, since if the person can keep the attention of the killer on them for long enough and knows how to loop really well, gens will fly and the person the killer was tunneling can escape.
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Agree, in that case, it's really bad for the killers. However, except for high-rank, it's something that doesn't happen very often. Not all survivors bring DS. Not all survivors bring perks that help play Tom & Jerry with the killers (Bond, Déjà Vu, Boon: Circle of Healing, Botany Knowledge…). Not all survivors have a good team (almost we have to coop with strangers). I used to camp and tunnel when I first played this game, and I see it's really bad for unlucky survivors who have no chance to enjoy the game. I'm not a pro killer as well as a pro survivor, just a normal player, so it's fair to say that we still need a solution for the ones who always try to camp and tunnel (especially in low and mediate rank).
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Oh no, someone accuses me of tunneling and camping for saying something they don't like. Very original and definitely the first time this has ever happened.
Now, do you want me to point out all the things wrong with your post or would you like to read over what you wrote again? There are so many things wrong here, I don't even need to argue against it.
Many of this comes from a lack of experience on your part. Like the things about team mates that only hide or lead the killer towards you. This is not the standard survivor. I assume my survivor MMR is pretty low but even my team mates usually don't make these kinds of mistakes.
That part about bully squads is particularly funny. These teams almost always lose. Because their goal is not to win but to make their opponent miserable. And when that doesn't work, they usually fall like domino.
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I say this all the time, killers who tunnel and rely on crutch perks like NoEd and NWO will get carried to higher MMRs where survivors will know exactly how to deal with them. And then suddenly they'll be crying that survivors are "suddenly so sweaty", when in reality they just got carried somewhere they don't belong because their skill expression doesn't match the survivors.
I also don't mind tunnelling, but when I get tunnled out three games in a row (or in this case, two games, then one where I escape through hatch, the the following I get tunnlled out) it does become tiresome.
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tunneling is fair gameplay. It may not feel fair, but they killer doesn't have to let you play if they don't want too.
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I bet you always camp and tunnel survivors then… meet the situation like "BrightWolf" said (the reply right above yours). Only low-level killers with poor skill have to tunnel to ensure at least 1 kill. Ya, the tunnel can be considered fair, because sometimes it allows the gens to fly (because they let the remaining 4 survivors freely do gens). I think, this topic is not about fair or not, it's about the players' experience. Camping & Tunneling make the game boring, tiring, frustrating instead of interesting and exciting. It will also lead to many bad comments about the game on social networks, making it difficult to attract new players and grow the community.
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Stop punishing. Killers and players in general aren't stupid, they will always find a way around anyway. Instead incentify going more for fresh hooks, like Pain Res. In some of my matches i feel it's just not worth to even hook a first downed surv cuz i know 2 mins later they will stand up with Adre anyway.
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It's not exactly fun to be tunnelled out of the game and loose progression because you weren't allowed to breathe, let alone touch a gen or even get in a decent chase.
Tonight, I was tunnelled out of the game three-four times in a row. Each time I had anywhere between 3000-9000 BP to show for my efforts, granted I would have played better, I know I could have. However, that doesn't excuse the playstyle.
By all means, play to win. But do be considerate of the other people in the game especially in live mode, the people yhou are against aren't bots, they are people who are also tryin gto play the game.
Oh, and I'm a killer main BTW. I only play SWF with friends, and even then we're not trying overly hard to "escape".
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I am a survivor main and I feel like punishing killers for tunneling is a bad idea. Although it can be frustrating to get tunneled out of a match, there's just no feasible way for the devs to distinguish against "toxic" tunneling and "acceptable" tunneling (who is to decide what is acceptable tunneling and what is not?). Like others have said, why punish killers for doing their objects but us survivors mains are not punished for gen rushing?
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One way to fix tunnelling would be to make survivors not have collision with the killer for a short duration, as long as the killer's TR is within earshot of the survivor they cannot be hit again until killer fully drops chase for 30-40 seconds after the basekit BT wears off.
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Another alternative that could help with slowing the game could be the first hook seals off the player. (This could have a time limit set to no make games be too long also) Think of it as the player is placed in jail and they then must wait for either a time limit or for X amount of others to be hooked as well. (Or X amount of gens completed) This would remove quick outs for survivors and still provide a way to slow the game down for killers without the need of perks.
This is just one way that could improve the game experience. I also believe survivors should get a minimum bp. That is due to as a killer you will get a decent amount even from getting stomped but a tunneled survivor could get close to nothing. One quick incentive and an easy fix as options.
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Most survivors have to cooperate with strangers. If they bring gen-supporting perks (such as Déjà Vu), they may gain speed boosts but are often weak in chases. It's a gamble, as killers will find it easier to down them all, especially when they don't work as a team. As many others have said, camping and tunneling might help killers rise in ranks (and they may think they're skilled, when they're not), only to face better survivors later on and wonder why gens are completed so quickly. Many high-rank survivors usually play in groups (at least two of them). While killing is the killer's objective, tunneling is a poor play; it's akin to cheating and deprives a survivor of the chance to enjoy the game. If you encounter very skilled killers (like many YouTubers), they don't need to camp or tunnel, or use red add-ons to secure 4 kills and only 2 gens done. Remember, a gen progression at 99.99% means that it is not completed. Killers also have many perks that slow down gens (imagine The Legion using "Thanatophobia"). On the survivors' side, gens are not the only objective; they also have to make rescues. And for killers, it's not just about killing; they have to protect the gens too. So, don't blame if you tunnel someone and leave all others free to complete gens.
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