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Why Otz says buffing DS is bad
in the video provided Otz talks about why buffing the duration of Ds won't solve tunneling especially against meta killers and instead says it should be made a common perk not locked behind a paywall for new players and begiven an additional effect that disables a killers power for 10-20 seconds so it can affect Nurses and blights.
Thoughts?
Comments
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if nurse have to float around the map for 40 seconds without blinking she gonna lose. I like his idea of it being a universal perk but that about it
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I agree that it would be better for a non-teachable perk to be an effective anti-tunnel perk. DS being locked behind a paywall is problematic. Even better would be basekit changes that help against tunneling.
But I personally still feel like this is better than nothing. It will definitely help with tunneling a bit, and that's what this game desperately needs at the moment. I also find it hard to believe this buff won't benefit top players at all. Even if they know how to make use of the 3 second stun, having that 5 second stun will definitely aid them even more.
I definitely think there needs to be more done about tunneling, but I also believe that buffing DS back to 5 seconds is at least a good start.
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He says a lot in that video, including that DS is more effective at oppressing killers in higher MMR (like him) than killers who are in low and average tiers. He said it won’t be as impactful where it really needs to be—low and average MMR—because it’s locked behind a paywall. So the people who are more susceptible to being tunneled, in his mind, are unlikely to have access to this anti-tunnel tool.
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Disabling a killer's power for 30-40 seconds? I am sorry, but what? I don't always agree with Otz, but never have I heard him say something that makes me say what the heck is he thinking?
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Obviously these times aren't final just a number thrown out there realistically devs would probably just make it 10-20 seconds to be more fair but currently Ds does absolutely nothing against these top killers
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Obviously these times aren't final just a number thrown out there realistically devs would probably just make it 10-20 seconds to be more fair but currently Ds does absolutely nothing against these top killers even if made 5 seconds
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Disabling the killer's power is way too much for a perk to do. I will never agree with that.
What it boils down to is that if a killer wants to tunnel, there is nothing that can be done to stop them. Yea, it sucks and I say that as someone who regularly IS the survivor that gets tunneled out.6 -
Or I dunno, maybe don't tunnel survivors. Decisive does NOTHING to killers that don't tunnel.
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Yeah, would be a shame if an Anti-Tunnel Perk would have any impact on Nurse. In the end, she could have always NOT tunneled…
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He didn't say anything about 30-40 seconds, lol, it's some intentional lies from OP. No experienced player would make such suggestion in their right mind, even against a Nurse.
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30-40 seconds power disable is absurd. Even 10-20 would be too much. Maybe around 5 second power (when the survivor hits the ground and can run) disable with them being stunned like others aswell. Ideally you wouldnt buff ds to 5 seconds, keep as is now or make it to 4 seconds and add this condition.
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5 secs absolutely not a nurse or blight can easily catch up in time with one charge of their power 10-15 secs is a fair punishment for hard tunneling someone or maybe Ds can just give endurance instead of turning killers power off
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Maybe a 10 sec compromise so Mobility Killers won't be immediately back on you. How does that sound?
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Ah seems the OP has corrected it to 10-20 seconds, but even then that's still way too much for any perk to do.
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There should just be a base mechanic for DS already. I'll just give my personal idea here:
New mechanic: Survival Instinct
- After getting unhooked, you gain Survival Instinct.
- If you get picked up by the Killer while Survival Instinct is active, stab the Killer to escape their grasp and stun them for 5 seconds.
- Taking a Conspicuous action deactivates Survival Instinct prematurely.
- If another Survivor gets hooked, Survival Instinct deactivates.
Decisive Strike: (Rework)
- When Survival Instinct deactivates, the Killer's Aura is revealed to you for 10/11/12 seconds.
- When escaping the Killers grasp, they suffer a 10 % Hindered penalty for 6 seconds.
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You can get crazy distance in 5 seconds and get to safe loops. They wouldnt be able to use their power at alI for 5 seconds while you run away. Could see something closer to 10 but anything above that is absurd(10 itself is probaly too high i think).
Ds shouldnt give endurance after the stun being able to stun a kill and get a ~5 second stun is already crazy powerful and endurance would just hurt weaker killers even more.
Ds should be a deterrent to tunneling not some all powerful shield that makes you invincible to it.
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I mean, I agree that 30-40 seconds is extreme. But it should be meaningful. Which DS is not, neither at 3 seconds nor at 5 seconds. Because in the end, the Killer can ALWAYS choose to not tunnel. If someone gets hit by DS it is the consequence of their own actions.
But in general, I like the idea of disabling the Power, because it weakens the strong Killers more than the weak Killers. A Clown who cannot throw Bottles or a Trapper who cannot place a Trap for a few seconds are weaker, but the overall loss of power is way less than a Wesker who cannot dash for a few seconds or a Nurse who cannot blink.
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I don't think the argument that "If we have a good perk for anti-tunnel then we can't add good basegame anti-tunnel" stands. One CA drops all anti-tunnel effects, and a CA is the only way to progress the game, so its fine. Any time a Killer wants to chase a Survivor, they can chase (in normal situations) 75% of the lobby with impunity, or can fake out the last and try to bait out a CA before tunneling. It doesn't matter if they give DS unlimited uses, or give a better DS that gives Survivors a Shotgun to stun the Killer for 15s, because a single CA deletes all of that. By not tunneling, I can deny the Survivors DS+OTR, so I get to play against 8 perks instead of 16.
That also means you can still 'toggle-tunnel' (or hook Surv A/B/A/B/A/B/C/D) without any issue. Now to be fair, I only consider it 'full-on' tunneling when a Survivor hasn't done a CA post-hook before getting hooked again. If a far superior Killer is winning to the extreme that they have 2 or 3 Survivors with anti-tunnel effects active, I think they are winning enough to chase the rescuer of any given Survivor instead.0 -
stretches his words a bit with how long it should be disabled he said for killers like blight / nurse it should drain or pause token regen while stunned, so at most it would be ~5-10s
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lmao 5-10 seconds won't change the decision for a killer to stop tunnelling. The perk has to physically hinder the killer and make them fear it to stop them doing it. Even if OP did throw around the seconds, 30-40s does sound about right in my opinion, especially when a gen takes 120 seconds now, and there are 5 to do. In an ideal lobby this perk would happen somewhere midgame but a lot of games end up with the killer wiping the entire team way before then, so this perk would also create another playstyle in the game during it and would help to promote slugging and not just tunnelling and camping mainly.
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We should just abolish the Shrine of Secrets and make a full-on perk shop that lets you buy all perks in the game for Iridescent Shards. No more perk paywall.
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That's still not even what Otz said. He never said to disable killer powers for X amount of seconds. All he said was to make killers like Nurse lose their tokens when stunned. The disable every killers power is OPs suggestion.
There is a fair amount of misinformation being spread about this video so I'm going to summarise the main points:
- He thinks this change will pretty much only benefit the average survivor. New survivors won't be able to use it and the killer will be more inclined to tunnel survivor they believe are new or don't own the DLC. High MMR survivors already ran DS and knew how to get good value from it so this change won't have too much impact for them as they already could use it pretty well. The average player who isn't skilled enough to do so will benefit though as it makes it easy to make distance but he thinks it's unfair that the tunnelling experience won't be improved for everyone.
- The change impacts slower killers more than the higher tier ones. Killers such as Nurse and Blight won't be bothered as much by an extra 2 seconds because they can make distance easily but killer like Ghostface and Pig will be hurt even more.
- He thinks the change will back fire as it's a short term bandaid fix for only a portion of the player base and in the long term it will have negative effects - they have stuck themselves in a corner where now the only way to combat tunnelling is a pay walled perk
- Both sides have just gone back to their original metas
His suggestions:
- Either give the effect to a generic perk like 'This Is Not Happening' and rework DS into something else, or nerf DS and make a better generic anti-tunnelling perk so that everyone can benefit from it.
- Have the perk put high tier killers power on cool down (his main suggestion was for Nurse to lose her tokens when stunned) so that all killers are affected fairly.
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It won't solve tunneling but why does that make the change bad? Should a perk solve a gameplay issue? Wouldn't that be worse?
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This is a great summary of what Otz thoughts on DS being Buffed. I completely agree with otz on this one as well. Also to those who are saying "well this is better than nothing" Shouldn't you want more from the devs? Settling for the bare minimum isn't helping you or the game. Be vocal about how you want more from DBD and want the devs to actually make the anti tunneling experience better for everyone instead of going with the most simple opinion that only going to affect some of the people. As Otz said in that video "I'm sure many other people have told them that they could make some changes to make the anti-tunneling experience better for everyone not just for some players and instead they chose to do the simpler, lazier, more shortsighted option." That exactly what this DS change is, it's the simpler, lazier, and shortsighted option that the devs could had chosen and think none of us should settle for that.
Devs of DBD please do better…
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That is very true.
It's Nurse. She has the chase power to end chases in literally seconds.
If she decides to tunnel, she and she specifically should be punished accordingly.
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I can't be the only one who is tired of people constantly going 'well Otz says this' and 'Otz' new video shows that' as if he's Mr. Dead by Daylight himself, instead of formulating their own opinions based off their own experiences.
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2 extra seconds of stun doesn't mean that going after that person isn't still the most efficient play for the game. Being hit with DS means you've already committed to the tunnel and been punished for it, but it also means from now, there's no punishment to tunneling them. Dropping the chase then would just be inefficient.
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Saying it's behind a paywall while accurate is also kinda goofy. It's $5, pay $5 level up Laurie and then level up David and while you level up those two you're grinding shards and then drop the 4.5k shards on Zarina congrats you now have access to the DH/DS/OtR combo and you only has to pay $5 for one of the characters and the other two are free. You can fill that 4th slot with one of the many strong free perks in the game (Adren, Balanced Landing, Bond, Prove, Unbreakable, Kindred, etc). I really feel like Otz makes the new player experience out to be so much worse than it actually is.
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I don't believe the buff to DS is the wrong buff for the perk, but I agree that the current selection of general perks doesn't offer a decent anti-tunnel perk (currently Lightweight is the closest, and even that is a stretch to call it anti-tunnel!).
They could make a separate perk for general perks - or at the very least for an original survivor, so it can be bought with Shards and not money - which can disable a killer's power for a brief window once off the hook. That would be better for the newer players to feel they have more of a chance.
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I feel this comes from a place of privilege. For some $5 is a lot esp when they just paid the money to buy the game in the first place. It's not like DBD is an f2p game. The thing is it feels like you have to have DS not to be tunnel and it is not right to make ppl feel they have to buy a dlc just so they can enjoy playing the game. You should want to buy a DLC because you like the character or content it has, not buy it out of fear of being tunneled. It's kind of like pay to win in some ways but instead of pay to win, it's pay to stay alive a little longer.
The problem also comes from the fact the killer can figure out if a player is new and bank on the fact they most likely haven't spent the money for DS and just tunnel them out. Its not hard to figure out if a player is new to dbd or not. Killer can look at play hours on stream(if the person is playing on stream) or just watch the path through the map or how they act. If someone seem kinda lost chances are they are new and the odds of them having DS is pretty low.
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But he isn't here for the debate, you are.
What is YOUR opinion?
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I'm gonna be honest, if someone is in a place where $5 is a lot they probably shouldn't be playing DBD in the first place because they have much more important things to be figuring out.
Also I disagree you have to have DS to not be tunneled, just DH and OtR is more than enough to not be speed run out of the game, DS just makes it even more effective cuz you get to waste the killers time even more and let's you use OtR and DH in the same chase.
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What are you saying? That if you are in a bad spot money-wise you shouldn't play video games? Ppl play games to relax and have fun. Maybe they just only had enough money to buy the base game and not any of the dlc. Why do these ppl have to deal with tunneling while ppl who can afford perks don't? A perk like DS should be offered to everyone not to just the ppl who can afford a DLC. Once again why make ppl feel they are forced to buy a DLC they may even want just so they don't have to deal with tunneling? As Otz said there are plenty of free perks that are completely trash that could be made into the new DS. I would love to see This Not Happening be made into a useful aint tunnel perk since it's completely useless as it is now.
Well based on comments, most of the community would have to disagree with you about OtR and DH is more than enough. If those two perks were good enough to battle tunneling we wouldn't have so many ppl begging for DS to be put back to 5 seconds. We wouldn't be having this discussion now either. The fact is that DS has always been the best anit tunneling perk and I think it sucks that ppl have to feel forced to buy a DLC they may not even want in the first place to get it. Sure there is the shine but let's be honest the shine sucks! It takes 6 months to a year for a actually decent perk to even show up on that thing. For example, I wanted Overcome but I didn't want to buy Jonah since I don't like how he looks and would never play him. I wanted over a year for it to show up in the shine. Luckily I didn't need Overcome since there were plenty of better exhaustion perks. Imagine tho that overcome was the only good exhaustion perk and felt like you needed it to even play the game? It would suck if I had to wait a whole year to even get it or pay money to just get a character I would never play.
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First, I just want to make it absolutely clear that this is not intended to 'solve tunneling'. This change is solely to make the perk provide more consistent value when it activates, not bring an end to the entire tunneling playstyle. I wouldn't recommend approaching this with the idea that it will end tunneling entirely as that is not the purpose behind the change - you would be setting yourself up for disappointment.
Secondly, regarding disabling Killer powers: I see this getting suggested a lot, but this is not an option. It's one of those things that sounds really simple on paper, but once you start drilling down into it, it turns out to be a whole can of worms. Each Killer power works differently from one another, and there is no one-size-fits all solution that can apply to all of them. Each power would need to be considered on a case by case basis to determine what should happen when they're 'disabled'.
For example, even if you disable the Killer's power button to stop The Nurse from blinking, there are multiple Killers who may already have traps set up around the map - would these also need to be disabled, or are they okay since they were already there? Some Killers also have passive powers/mechanics, such as The Cenobite's Chain Hunt, which would also need to be considered. It would also limit the possibilities for future Killer powers since we would always need to worry, "But how would it work if it was disabled by this one specific perk?"
To be frank, this would be unsustainable. With over 30 Killers in the game and more on the way, having special conditions for each one would require far too much ongoing support just to make that condition feasible. To give an real example from the past, the original version of Tinkerer used to increase the effectiveness of all charge speed add-ons. Even with only a handful of Killers in the game at the time, it ended up being very confusing for players to keep track of which add-ons it could affect, a nightmare to balance because those add-ons could be too strong with the perk or too weak without it, and an unreasonable amount of work to upkeep as the game grew. In the same way, this would require quite a bit of additional work to be done for every Killer just to support one perk. It's one of the reasons that perks typically don't interact with powers, and the few that do are gradually moving away from that (e.g. Adrenaline waking up Survivors).
Don't get me wrong, it's a neat idea and the intention behind it is good, but it's way outside the scope for a single perk and could quickly turn into a confusing mess.
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It’s clear that you all have decided to alter DS to help ameliorate tunneling. I think it’s a good move. I’m curious, though, if you all have other things you’re working on to help with it. Obviously you don’t want to completely eliminate it as a playstyle, but you all seem keen to at least restrict its potency.
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DS doesn’t actually function well as an anti-tunnel. Unless a very large percentage of the players are using DS, then mathematically, the killer is better off immediately picking up survivors, and risking the DS.
This is true because if a killer hesitates to pick up a survivor because they might have DS, but it turns out that survivor didn’t have DS, then the killer has just wasted time.
Therefore, killers should look at “should I immediately pick up a survivor” as a probability over a large number of games. And if the majority of the pickups don’t result in a DS, then the killer is better off just picking survivors up whenever they want.
The only way DS could actually function as anti-tunnel, is if the killer knew when a survivor had an active DS. This would signal to the killer there is a 100% chance they could eat a DS, and therefore should hesitate to pick up that survivor.
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This is fair and i understand that disabling killer perk would be a nightmare to get working properly for the reasons you gave. but can we get a comment on why a perk like DS, that is clearly supposed to help if your being tunnelled even though its not there to eradicate the playstyle, is stuck behind a paywall. Any perk that helps counter a playstyle even in a small way shouldn't be locked behind a pay wall as this then starts a slippery slope to pay to win (which the game kinda already is when you consider the base kit perks).
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It won't solve tunnelling entirely but i do think previously when DS had a 5 second stun that it basically made the playstyle unviable for a lot of killers when you tried to tunnel a survivor that had it. That made it extremely popular, and i feel like it will be the same thing again.
I feel like this change is just moving backwards on addressing tunnelling. Before 6.1.0 DS was what a lot people called the band aid fix for tunnelling, and in the same patch basekit BT with haste was added to try and combat it as well as buffing OTR but now the DS stun duration is back to how it was and i feel like it will just be the bandaid fix for tunnelling again. I know it's not the intention, but i do feel like it will be an effect.
I just don't see how a perk that combats the most effective playstyle won't be meta. And it can't be good for new players that such a perk is behind a paywall.
I would really appreciate it if you could address my concerns.2 -
May I ask why solving tunneling is not something on the roadmap? I know that the DS buff will help alleviate this, but I mean an actual core gameplay mechanic to solving this issue that ruins so many people''s experiences with this game. I have a buddy who really wants to get into this game to play with my friend and I, but can't get over the fact that he spends over half his time playing the game in spectator mode due to people "finding the weak link and getting them out early".
This game doesn't have a ranked or competitive mode, MMR is hidden, Prestige doesn't matter in equation to player skill, why would the number one priority not be to provide a more enjoyable player experience to both sides? Even if the answer is too much work, why make perks like DS and OTR not general perks? Why take away things like BBQ giving double bloodpoints when that was a great incentive not to tunnel? Why make conscious decisions to elevate a playstyle that is not seen as remotely fun and is also one of the easiest things to do in the game with such great payoff?
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Entirely too many players take Otz's opinions as gospel. Otz is entitled to his opinion as much as anyone. But he is human and he is flawed just like the rest of us. Don't put so much weight to his words.
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Why take away things like BBQ giving double bloodpoints when that was a great incentive not to tunnel?
Don't even remind me… :(
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I think it’d be a very interesting idea to make BBQ with the double bloodpoint incentive basekit, as IIRC, they removed the incentive because they didn’t want people to feel like they had to run it and to increase build variety. Not only would this just be great QoL for killers, but also help incentivize them to leave the hook and start a chase with someone else.
Disincentivizing tunneling would also work lore wise as the entity feeds off hope, and getting hard tunneled is about the least hopeful thing as a survivor.
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It is not a bad idea, my friend, but I would prefer BBQ to get reverted, instead of making the effect basekit.
After all, BBQ = one less gen regression perk.
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Fair enough, I just hope a content creator or someone with a more widespread platform in the community picks up on this so that more people can read and understand this because it makes a lot of sense knowing the developer standpoint on this of why it isn't a simple change.
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In general, trying to fix tunneling with a perk is a bad idea. You can't guarantee everyone has it and you'll end up making a perk feel mandatory in nearly every build. And they end up nerfing heavily used perks.
It's going to require core gameplay changes to fix tunneling. Hopefully, they'll do it by incentivizing against tunneling and not just punishments for doing it.
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Very good point, friend.
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peanits dropped the hammer
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Losing all tokens still effectively removes the power.
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since it applies a stun, why not make it so the problematic powers that can ignore the distance from ds, have their power on a cooldown after being stunned? or at least make this apply to nurse lol, it would be such fun counterplay to nurse to have rare pallet stuns, or head on be super strong vs her
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The whole point of buffing DS is to provide more safety, right? The buff to DS is really only going to hurt the lower tiers, and m1 killers. Those aren't the killers we should be targeting. Disabling killer powers for 7 seconds (4 seconds essentially with the 3 second stun) would be so much better of a buff to DS because those higher tier killers and ranged killers couldn't catch them in most cases before they make it to another loop if the survivor went down with DS in a good spot. A 2 second longer stun wouldn't impact ranged and S tier killers much, and it would impact the lower tiers and m1s much more.
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