Why Otz says buffing DS is bad
Comments
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I understand what you saying and respect it but I still have issues with DS being behind a paywall, esp when you have ALOT of useless free perks on both sides. Otz made a good point that you could have at least moved the effect of DS on a perk like This is Happening, a perk that have little to no use for new or old players right now.
I know you all don't see DS as a fix to tunneling but a lot of your player base does. They will use DS as way to fix tunneling and will use it every single match no matter what. Putting it back to 5s only brings back those days where all we see from survivors will be the same 4 perks every single match. We all know that Fog whispers and others have talked to you and shared ideas about how to make the anti-tunneling experience better for everyone not just for some players. I don't understand why the devs didn't take this chance to address this. Once again all you doing is telling players esp newer players that if you don't want to be tunnel you have to spend $5 to get one single perk to help combat it. As I said no matter what you say, ppl in your player base will always see DS as a band-aid/short-term fix to tunneling.
I end this with that I am happy you shared the reasoning for not disabling killer powers. That does make some sense and I respect that that much. I just think there were better opinions the devs could have done to help against tunneling(which once again is the reason ppl run DS in the first place) for everyone instead of just putting DS(a $5 perk) back to 5s.
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Literally the best thing this perk can get in terms of buffs that wouldnt affect lower tiers as much would be a power lockout.
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Under any other circumstance, I would believe this and understand it to be true. But there's one thing which contradicts your entire reasoning. We technically had this implemented as a condition in the void during the Haunted by Daylight event. The zombies on Nemesis worked as normal, the chain hunt did as well (I assume since I never saw Pinhead during the event), and other killers who have powers that work on the map overall. If you've already implemented it once before, what's stopping the dev team from implementing it when you already have the code with the only thing needed to be done is change it around a little to have that activate with DS? What is truly stopping that from being possible?
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People want a Solution to tunneling if you can disable some powers around hooks such as teleports but not instant downs or even hag tp traps your already inconsistent and two steps in a confusing mess and Dbd twitter and reddit is pointing out all the flaws in this bad take statement.
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Yes but this wouldn’t be as punishing as completely disabling your power and would only affect a few killers rather than everyone.
Her recharge time is only 3 seconds per token, you would be able to use your power again after 3 seconds and both blinks after 6. Nurse would still have an easier time catching up then the other killers but the distance gained would be much closer to the other killers than it is now.
But that’s assuming you don’t recover until after the stun though. If you recover during it then there is pretty much no penalty because you’ll be 1 second off having all tokens after the stun.0 -
If anything, DS just encourages slugging playstyles.
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To be fair the 'disable power' could just disable the buttons associated with powers (not only RMB, but Control and any other power associated buttons like spacebar for power pickup (but not vaulting of course)). Disabling Hag's teleport would mean you could trip her web of traps (by running) with no problem. It is mainly the strongest Killers that this would impact, as I don't see that many people complaining about Trapper tunneling. Cenobite couldn't teleport to a box solve or use power to interrupt it, even if the normal chain hunt could still be active. I wouldn't even limit this to DS, and include it in hitting anti-tunnel Endurance as well (along with disabling collision until a CA post-hook).
The issue is this type of Killer 'incapacitation' can only be self-inflicted. You never need to tunnel (outside of Deliverance in endgame as the final Surv leaves, but if it lasted 5s/gen remaining as a general rule, then this wouldn't happen), so the Killer would know they are only victimizing themself.
For sake of argument disabling each Killer's buttons (including on Anti-Tunnel Endurance) would do the following. If not mentioned, tokens/CD still recovers.- Trapper - Set/pickup and rearm disabled, previously set traps remain
- Wraith - Can't re-enter power
- Billy - Can't Saw
- Nurse - Can't Blink
- Myers - Can't Stalk, existing T3 would remain
- Hag - Can't Trap/TP, existing traps remain
- Doctor - Can't Shock/Blast, illusions popping up on Madness Survivors remain
- Huntress - Cant Throw (Depending on how it is coded, searching lockers might also disable reloading, fine either way)
- Bubba - Can't Saw
- Freddy - Can't place Dream items or TP, Dream world unchanged
- Pig - Can't place headtrap or crouch (which in turn disables rush)
- Clown - Can't reload, swap, or throw bottles, existing clouds remain
- Spirit - Can't Phase
- Legion - Can't enter Frenzy, if already in Frenzy, can't end early except by hitting/double hitting a Survivor or running out of time (also similar with Huntress, might still allow or disable Frenzied vaults over pallets)
- Plague - Can't Puke or grab from pools
- Ghosty - Can't enter power (swinging/stuns ends power, so you can't be in power after a tunnel Endurance hit/DS pickup)
- Demo - Can't Shred or Portal (place or enter)
- Oni - Can't absorb orbs, or enter power, if in power, can't Dash, might still be able to charge M1 or fully disable M1 in power
- Slinger - Can't reload or aim
- Pyramid Head - Can't shadow realm or use power, existing barbwire remains
- Blight - Can't rush
- Twins - Not sure how the remake is going to work - TBD (Assuming current version, can't swap to or recall Victor, if hitting as Victor against Endurance, can't swap back or ready Pounce, probably hurts the most to tunnel (as Victor), might be able to search lockers or not as Victor)
- Trickster - Can't Throw Knives (RMB, or enter Final Event), existing Final Event continues
- Nemmy - Can't raise tentacle
- Pinhead - Can't use power, TP, or pick up box, existing chain hunt remains, pickup box on down likely would still occur, but might not
- Artist - Can't release existing or set crows, existing swarms continue (both on map, and on Survs)
- Onion Ring - Can't Phase, which also means can't TP
- Dredge - Can't Leave shell, which also means can't TP back to shell or to locker, Nightfall works as normal
- Wesker - Can't Dash, existing Infection continues as normal
- Knight - Can't set new guards, existing guards remain
- SM - Can't check radar, set new Drones, or Recall existing, existing Drones remain (arguably remains the strongest post tunnel)
- Singularity - Can't TP, set new Biopods, or check Cams, existing infections remain
- Xeno - Can't Tail or enter tunnels, can still be burnt out of power
- Chucky - Can't enter or exit Hidey-Ho, and can't use Slice and Dice. M1s during Hidey-Ho to hit Endurance would leave you in power with the remaining time (minus the swing's reduction), Scamper may or may not work like Legion and Huntress, depends on coding.
- Unknown - Can't TP or RPG, existing clones and normal clone spawning remains.
So disabling the power button works largely as one would expect with 5 exceptions. Legion/Huntress/Chucky/Victor might still be able to spacebar to vault/scamper/reload/Victor search, or not, depending on how they are coded, but are fine regardless. Oni might be able to charge M1, or disable M1 entirely in power, but since you would have to hit Endurance to remain in power, it still disables the major threat of dashing. Twins with current Victor would be the major 'feels bad' if you hit anti-tunnel Endurance. This would fully disable your ability to play the game beyond where Victor is. Given that the Killer would know this risk, they could simply not risk Victor pouncing/Oni Dashing into charged M1 late near hooks (and 'shoulder checking' for collision before pouncing a questionable target). 2 exceptions can (potentially) fully disable a Killer's lethality (for the proposed 5s/gen remaining), but since it was a choice they made, it can only be done through self-victimization.
If MMR is required, that means we only have Ranked. Customs are customs so you could claim they are Unranked, but matchmade gameplay isn't Ranked/Unranked, it's exclusively Ranked.
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I would routinely go out of my way for those stacks, as did many killers back then. By default tunneling was less in most matches. And wayyyyyyy less common early in trials, which is the flavor of tunnels most complained about by far.
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I mean, as already said it wont solve tunnelling but it will at least be start towards making tunnelling less appealing and to punish it far more than current DS does.
Hopefully BHVR continue to look at tunnelling and mechanics to make it nonviable to discourage those currently getting easy wins from tunnelling
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Endurance hits should not be a part of this since survivors could abuse it by body blocking.
This also has the downside that after triggering DS, your best option now is to continue tunnelling. Since you can no longer teleport with killer like Dredge or Freddy and you can no longer stop all those people triggering your traps as Hag, you can't go looking for someone else as easily and your best bet is to just keep tunnelling. I think that kind of defeats the purpose a bit.
Also 110 killers like Slinger and Hag are hurt by this way worse than anyone else (except Nurse).
The only killer who's power should be lost is Nurse, everyone else doesn't need this. DS is fine after that and then make some other base kit form of anti-tunnelling.
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I already pre-empted bodyblocks by removing collision (during anti-tunnel effects being active). So that is already (mostly) solved. (found in parenthetical at end of first paragraph)
Understandable with sunk-cost fallacy and commit on chase. Arguably DS should give speed or stealth post stab, that way you can Background Player level sprint away, or Shadow Step+Iron Will hide in a corner safely. I think it is better to take a DS and plan on using that to your advantage later, or simply not tunnel at all to bypass those perks, but not everyone thinks ahead as Killer. I autopilot as Bubba to be fair and chase the first I see.110 Killers (and 115) still have to make the active choice to tunnel and risk the consequences. Covered under the 'self-victimization' portion (found in 2nd paragraph). Also 110 isn't as debilitating in terms of macro as people would have you believe. Over 25s (or tunneling at 5 gens under the proposal), 4.6 gets you 115m, and 4.4 gets you 110m. Over 5s (or tunneling at 1 gen under the proposal), 4.6 gets you 23m and 4.4 gets you 22m. That basically means 1m per gen remaining of lost distance from 110 to 115.
I do think at the minimum every Killer that can move/attack faster than 8m/s should be impacted (Blight/Oni/Wesker/Demo/Billy/Huntress/Slinger/etc.), but keeping it universal as 'Killer Incapacitation' fits better imo. It can be the Entity removing the powers it gave to the Killers, being more thematically appropriate, and universally applied keeps it fair across the board.
The only aspect that could be unfair is abusing the game's poor autoaim with the bodyblock point, and trying to run in another Survivor's model to disable the Killer's power. I don't know how autoaim could be fixed, or if it can be, so this is the largest flaw I see. At the same time, if I am running 2 Survivors for the OTR duration, I am getting 33% effective gen slowdown as the Survivor could have been pumping gens instead. I'll take a free 10% boosted Pentimento any day.0 -
No collision can still be abused as you already pointed out. Not to mention that often you try to go for the unhooker after the get the rescue but because of auto aim it locks onto the unhooked and you hit them by mistake. You don't even need to run with the survivor, you could be inside the killers hit box and auto aim will hit them and the killer would have no way of knowing you were there. It would be way too abusable and way too punishing for something that could happen by mistake.
You could go the route of making no collision also mean you can't get hit. This should only affect the base kit endurance and not OtR because 80 seconds of intangibility could also be massively abusable (trigger every single Hag trap, solve Pinhead's box and he can't stop it, follow Ghost Face around and completely nullify his power). No collision and no damage for 15 seconds though wouldn't be much of an issue because you can't really do anything in that time but 80 seconds is too much.
Running 2 survivors for 80 seconds is also very bad for you. Yes only 2 survivors are on gens, but they are making progress and you aren't. That's almost 2 gens worth and you've made no progress at all. On paper it is the same amount of slow down as Pentimento, but Pentimento doesn't stop you from progressing your objective.
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I'm so sorry but I still whole heartedly disagree.
No one is going to reasonably complain that setup Killers like Hag and Trapper still get their traps. They can't directly use their power to counter the anti-tunnel unlike most movement/attack powers. If you fall into one of them right after a DS then that's kinda on you?
As for passives like chain hunt and zombies, again the killer cannot directly use them to counter DS so they're irrelevant. In those cases it's either the teams fault for not handling the passive slowdown or it's simply bad luck. Now complaining about the luck elements in DbD is an entirely different can of worms, but the fact is its something y'all choose to keep (fine imo, the variety allows it to stay fun and unpredictable) and it isn't a TUNNELING related issue. So doesn't hold merit either against power disabling.
You only listed a few powers and then loosely said "etc." to cover all cases, but honestly not a single power/passive/setup is worthy of an exception. I genuinely believe just disabling all M2 (potentially Shift as well) abilities (for a fairly short time mind you) would be an appropriate fix all around. It literally only helps weaker Killers (by not effecting them at all) and limits oppressive ones. It's easy to see once you actually review each and every Killer instead of just saying "etcetera". It's the definition of balanced.
And for the final point of "a perk shouldn't have this much power/leverage", I agree! It's been said before and there's still years later a clear solution. Make it base kit.
I knoow, the dreaded words. But seriously. Reduce the stun back to 3 seconds, change DS to something else, give Killers adequate buffs to ensure it doesn't become overbearing...do whatever you have to do to make it not oppressive but just make it base kit and start giving incentives for hooks over kills!!!
Some of these things are so incredibly obvious when you actually have thousands of hours in the game. I sincerely implore you and your team to please not take another 3 years to realize we were right all along like you do nearly every time!
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I think that just disabling the power buttons (M2 and CTRL by default) would be okay. Chain hunt is not the killer tunneling, it's just a natural thing happening. Already set traps are also not a problem, in my opinion. Just disabling the key bounds to the power would be good. I hope it's feasible. :)
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I personally think if the Survivor is within 2-5m of another Survivor it would be best to remove attack collision as well, but that might not be an option (programmatically). I seriously don't think the Killer will have no clue that the Survivor is trailing them chasing the rescuer, especially since the Killer is faster by default, let alone Bloodlust as well.
I only used the OTR 80s as an exaggeration, because it should take no longer than 20-30s to get a hit, and another 5-25s powerless to get the down (either tunneled or on the rescuer). It is fine as long as matchmaking isn't sending 800MMR baby Killers against 2000MMR clock SWFs, but even then that would be a matchmaking problem, not a problem with this proposal.
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DS should work like Skull Merchant’s Game Afoot.
When the survivor gets chased for the most amount of time they become the new obsession at the start of a chase. DS activates.
As long as you are the obsession you gain access to DS; However, successfully landing DS puts it on cooldown for 60 seconds.
The killer gets stunned for 3/4/5 seconds.
DS deactivates if the obsession is changed by any means.0 -
He said resets the power if you watched the video which is 6-10 seconds at most.
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The issue with this is that it would punish those who don't have DS even more. Because the killer would 100% know you don't have DS so will always just pick up and hook again in all cases
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No counter to high tier killers?
Sounds like alot more blights and nurses on their way.
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It sounds legit asking at this point: Is "tunneling" something the team aims at solving or something that is considered as part of the intended game design? Because even if DS doesn't "solve tunneling" it's gonna be the strongest answer to it (in my opinion: it already is), so it's gonna be played a lot, even more than now. Of course for "solving tunneling" it implies something that makes viable for killers to win consistently at higher levels without needing to go for these strategies.
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It seems that everyone is trying to duct tape the issue (DS, longer DS Stun, DS Basekit). The problem is not camping or tunneling killers, nor is it DS.
The problem is the hook.
Perhaps Deathgarden did something very right by removing the "hook" (bloodpost).
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Killer will think I should not tunneled.
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Would think making the killers' power go on cool down and doesn't start until they recover from the stun to be more effective at dealing with the stronger killers being impacted less compared to the weaker ones. Would fix the killers like Nurse, Blight, and Spirit getting hit much less than a Trapper. Don't really get how something like that with making DS a 4 second stun isn't overall more consistent vs all killers compared to just making it 5 seconds.
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Dear bHVR it may not be as unsustainable as you think, Sure for one perk it might be.
But you can also use the power disable for many more things, like you used it in the Special Rifts in the Halloween event.
Those rifts will return surely in some form again? It may come in handy and to that it does not really matter that other weaker Killers could maybe gain some advantage vs. one perk:- Pre-Placed Skull merchant Drones.
- Pre-Placed Trapper Traps
- Pre-Placed Freddy Pools
- Pre-Placed Knight Guard.
- Hag with Scarred Hand or Waterlogged Shoe.
- Pre-thrown Clown Gas Bottle.
- Nemesis Zombies.
- Pinhead's Chain Hunt.
- Pig's Pigs Reverse Bear Trap Countdown.
None of these are as big an issue as Blight or Nurse. In fact I think most players would be glad that DS would work better again the worst offenders, instead of making it worse for everybody while mildly affecting those Killers that it really matters for.
I hope bHVR takes this into reconsideration.
My suggestion is 5 sec stun + 15 seconds power buttons disable upon activating DS.
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Hi Peanits, I think I agree with you for the most part here, I suppose I just have one question for you.
Have you seen the discussion with Nurse and Blight losing all their tokens specifically upon a stun? Not just a DS stun specifically, but any stun. I think that would solve some of the gripes people have about not only those killers being OP, but the fact that DS feels useless against them because those killers can just catch back up immediately, even with the buffed stun time. They are the best killers too at tunneling, without a doubt.
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That's fine. BHVR made it clear that it's perfectly fine for survivors to run perks that hurt the rest of the the team, like when survivors excessively hide with Distortion, or when survivors equip Sole Survivor + Wake Up, and just wait for the rest of their team to die.
Survivors that are honestly using DS for anti-tunnel would get more value out of DS, if the killer knew they had an active DS. That is more important than giving every survivor DS value, even if they aren't running that perk.
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######### seriously. This is not novel code. The Blight Serum add-on already disables a killer's M2 while it's active. Twins (until this upcoming patch) and Artist have their M2 disabled while near hooks. Disabling a killer's M2 is already a thing that exists in game. Nobody was ever talking about disabling all traps mapwide, turning off the chain hunt, resetting Sadako's TVs, or whatever absolute nonsense BHVR is on about.
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I've suspected for a while he was saying whatever would bump-up his followers. He says to many things that make no sense.
I'm glad the devs are not listening to streamers. Listening this one and a few other's opinion would ruin the game.
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I SOMEWHAT agree with what he's saying, like how DS should be Basekit and should cancel the killers power…but for 10 - 20 seconds is excessive, even as a survivor main.
That can EASILY be abused and shuts down every killer in the game if they can't access their ability for a period of time like that. Maybe for 3/4/5 additional seconds AFTER THE STUN should be enough but 10 seconds pushing it besides the fact of the amount of killers that'd complain about it.
The point of DS and DS itself is to deter tunneling killers, if Killers DONT tunnel; this won't affect them. Making Killers weaker because they chose to tunnel is good idea but an even better idea would've been just making DS basekit; bottom line.1 -
also this feels like a massive over complication of something that really isnt that complex.
currently, the problem with ds is that its super unfair in its value between the killers it is used on, nurse doesnt care, the weak killers do.
even if the solution of making it disable powers has some killers still keeping the passive component of their powers active, ie traps, chain hunts and pig boxes, isnt this still a far better solution than triggering ds and then having nurse blink onto you immediately after her stun time is over?i also really dont see how this can limit new killers, all it has to do is make them an m1 killer for a short duration, it cant be that bad
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i didnt even think of this, wow, yeah it really shouldn't be that hard XD
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honestly if it was 10 seconds, i really wouldnt care, playing a weak killer? bam dont care, basically no difference.
Strong killer? ok now im far weaker, and it was well earny by survivors, and i was punished for trying to play sweaty as a strong killer.0 -
why not just disable "M2 button" for some time? so, passive/already placed powers keep working, but you can't blink/rush immediately after stun
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It's the same problem as all strong survivor perks. A 5 second DS is good for us solo survivors and we need it while SWF teams have each other also and don't need that buff it's just going to make it even harder to kill one survivor in these games.
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Agreed, the hook is the issue, but changing something this fundamental would only be appropriate for a sequel.
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i Think the problem about tunnel is the early game tunnel, so, i think DS should work with how gens are done. For example
DS time stun: 5 seconds if u will use with 5 gens up
DS time stun: 4 seconds if u will use with 4 gens up
DS time stun: 3 seconds if u wil use with 3, 2 or 1 gen up
DS deactivate when gates are powered.Or, reduce the time DS is active after unhook and put the stun time at 4sec
DS active: 60 seconds, 5 seconds if u will use with 5 gens up
DS active: 50 seconds, 4 seconds if u will use with 5 gens up
DS Active: 40 seconds, 3 gens
DS Active: 30 seconds, 2 and 1 gen
DS deactivate when gates are powered1 -
To mildly paraphrase Dr. Strangelove: "A weapon is only useful as a threat if the other side knows you have it!"
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Isn't it just a matter of marking killers with high mobility have a tag?
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That would be work too. People have provided a lot of examples in this thread of both mechanics disabling powers already in the game (so it can be done), and ways to implement this mechanic.
But what we've not seen at all is an acknowledgement that the devs do actually see this disparity between how much killers are affected as an issue that needs to be addressed, and if they do, what are they planning to do to address it?
From where I'm sitting, the attitude seems to be that there is no issue with how different killers are affected by DS. Does someone at BHVR care to clarify that point?
Certain killers are clearly warping the game and its mechanics. Nurse, for example, singlehandedly got Awakened Awareness majorly nerfed from its initial version. The number of killers that truly warp the game in unhealthy ways, like being able to basically ignore DS, is still relatively small, and it hardly seems like too much work or complexity just to make special cases for a few of them. They already exist! Plague loses her power when stunned. Artist can't M2 near hooked survivors. These rules and limitations already exist. If another killer is introduced that is similarly too strong, it's not having to redo all 30 killers to account for it having a bad interaction with one perk. It's just tweaking that killer.
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I mean it's why I've always felt like high mobility needs to go or be nerfed severely, maps are getting smaller and smaller to make lower tier killers lives easier, but in turn are making high mobility even more obnoxious and impossible to escape from, as it stands right now a lot of maps a nurse can teleport anywhere so long as she is in the centre… thats just crazy lol
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Peanits's first paragraph implies two things to me.
- DS is not to be the solution to tunneling, perhaps there are plans for more anti tunnel perks in the pipeline?
- The devs don't think tunneling should be shut down like AFC did for face camping or regression cap for 3 gen stalling. Tunneling is not something new, it's been around for a long time. If devs wanted to shut it down, they wouldn't have to introduce workarounds like OTR, DS, basekit BT etc.
Which leads to the question, "Why can't tunneling be shut down completely? Wouldn't this make the game healthier?"
There is a good likelihood that the answer to the above question is no. The devs are the ones holding all the data, they probably have a pretty good idea of what would happen if tunneling was removed and they do not view this "Non tunnel version of DBD" as a priority, so the next best thing is to introduce bandaids via perks and basekits.
It's not about how to stop tunneling, it's about why tunneling should be stopped.
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General consensus seems to suggest that when the tunnelling occurs matters. So tunnelling at 5 gens or when dominating the game is frowned upon, while tunnelling in late game or when the killer is struggling is considered fine. So (my assumption of course) I imagine that the devs probably can't really address tunneling when it frustrates people the most (early game) without it affecting tunnelling in general . Or if they can they might be concerned about the complexities it involves or issues it might cause later down the line.
This is actually why I've always preferred the devs to address certain playstyles with perks (even if that is just a "bandaid"). I know I'm in the minority among survivor mains though, most would rather basekit changes. I don't think these sorts of playstyles need to be eliminated, there just should be some risk attached that the person you decided to tunnel may come equipped to deal with it. Just my 2 cents anyway.
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So the counter to a perk that wants you not to tunnel is not to tunnel?
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In the PTB whenever it is now, I would have liked DS to be kept at 3 seconds but the killer gets an affliction, similar to the orange glyph killer challenges. I did one of those at the weekend and breaking generators and dropped pallets was painfully slow, like double the time. Something like that lasting for a period of time would have been better in my opinion.
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