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Let’s have a balance discussion. (Please no arguments) both sides welcome.
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I've also said that you don't balance a game by buffing the weak and strong things simultaneously, perfectly summarized in my scale analogy.
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Secondary adjective: Power cells for gates
"Once all generators are powered, two random gens are highlighted yellow for both survivor and killer, the two gens are the ones that hold a power cell created by the entity, it will take survivor 6 seconds to take out the power cell carefully, after 3 seconds a difficult skill check will appear, if the survivors hit it, they are safe and 3 seconds after, they will take the power cell, if they miss it, it will explode and regress both generators by 10 percent and the gates will become unpowered. Once a survivor has a power cell, they must insert it into the gate switch in which will take 12 seconds to do so, no skill checks needed, once the power cell is fully inserted, it will alert the killer and the survivor is now able to start opining the gate" For this, Nurse and billy will need no nerfs
Noed change: Instead of giving the exposed effect on all levels, it will only grant the effect at max level on a timer, this will also change noed from a hex perk to a normal perk
Noed lvl 1-3: Haste 4/8/12%
Cool down on miss attacks reduce by 5/10/20%
Cool down on successful attacks reduce by 10/20/35%
Exposed (At level 3) Will last for only 25 seconds
And for your legion changes:
- (When using feral frenzy) when you miss an attack, it decreases your power gauge, 2 miss attacks to deplete the power gauge (not completely on one miss attack, that's asking too much) as well for missing a hit, decrease speed moment by 5% for a miss attack while in feral frenzy (does not applies when out of feral frenzy)
-(When using feral frenzy) When vaulting over windows or pallets, decreases the gap between the killers model and the window or pallet
-(When using feral frenzy) When after vaulting over a window or pallet, feral frenzy speed movement is slowed down to 115% for 2 seconds, then back to normal feral frenzy speed movement
-(When using feral frenzy) When inflicting deep wound on a survivor, their blood is more easier to see when in feral frenzy
-(When using feral frenzy) When inflicting deep wound on a survivor, killer instinct aura reading ability is able to cover the entire map, at the cost of increasing the draining of the power
-(When using feral frenzy) When inflicting another deep wound attack on a survivor that is already inflicted with deep wound, will decreases their timer and now, with the chance of the survivor after losing the killer, will have a small random chance of yelling in pain if not mending/during mending
-(When in deep wound) Your speed movement is decreases by 3%
-(When in deep wound) You will bleed more frequently and your blood is easier to see by killer, and slightly easier to see by survivors
-(When in deep wound) After being hit the second time, not mending after 15 seconds (not included in chase) you will have a Moderately chance to yell in pain, when mending, you will have a sightly chance to yell in pain, when being mended by others, you will not yell in pain
-(When in deep wound) When in a chase with the killer, your timer will still go down, but more slowly, when the timer is at 15%, its stops going down until out of chase
-(When in deep wound) When mending, your timer will go down, and will deplete, but the timer will be slowed down when mending, and slower when mended by others
-(When in deep wound) If timer goes out when not mending, you have a Considerably chance of yelling in pain, if mending and timer ran out, Moderately chance to yell in pain, if mended by other and timer runs out, no chance of yelling in pain
-(Perk: Discordance) All the same, but now when two survivors are on one gen and one leaves, the aura of the survivor that left will be shown for 2/2/4 seconds
-(Perk: Mad Grit) No changes needed
-(Perk: Iron Maiden) All the same, but now when a survivor is near a locker of 3 meters for 5/3/2 seconds, their aura will be shown, after the survivor leaves the locker range, their aura will still be shown for 1/2/2 seconds, when a survivor comes out of a locker, they will yell and will be expose for 10/15/20 seconds
-(Stab Wounds Study) All survivors who are hit by the feral frenzy attack, will now bleed more frequently and the blood will be Moderately easier to see to the killer (stacks with the power)
-(Frank's Mix Tape) Tremendously increases the amount of damage applied to a Survivor's Deep Wound timer, but as well Considerably increasing the penalty when missing an attack in feral frenzy
-(Smiley Face Pin) Slightly decreases the power gauge depletion on miss attacks
-(Defaced Smiley Pin) Moderately decreases the power gauge depletion on miss attacks
-(The Legion Pin) Considerably decreases the power gauge depletion on miss attacks
-(Fuming Mix Tape) When in feral frenzy, killer instinct is already active and you are only able to see those in your terror radius at the cost of Considerably increasing the draining of the power gauge
-(Cold Dirt) Considerably decreases the repair speed of survivors who are hit by the feral frenzy attack, at the cost of Moderately increasing draining of the power
- Takes 4 hits to down a survivors in feral frenzy (First initial hit, second, then third, then fourth)
- If using Frank's Mix Tape, it's now only 3 hits (First initial hit, second, then third)
- If a survivor is expose, when using feral frenzy, you will now be able to one hit a survivor, but as well if chasing a survivor who has the expose effect on them and using feral frenzy, it Tremendously increases draining of the power and missing an attack will deplete the power entirely
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Totems aren't a secondary objective.
Now if they counted towards lightbringer, then they could be seen as a secondary objective.
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Totems are not the objective. They are a side task for extra bloodpoints and whether or not you feel like risking a NOED. That criteria doesn't make them an objective.
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They need to retire moris and keys; make moris a perk/hex only effect.
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Plus the time for search and find them..5 minute for solo survivor?
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BOOM! The truth has been said. Also, plants were a second objective, still got rushed.
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@Caretaker the plants were not forced objectives.
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Small Game. If survivors stopped ignoring totems that they find, it wouldn't be that long. Also, I play solo, I memorized the totem spawns. Guess who hasn't been hit by NOED, but cut it out before it activated pretty much every game?
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No, but everyone wanted them, and it didn't slow the game down at all. We need a secondary objective, this is true, but like someone stated before. If NOED is that big of a problem, then totems ARE a mandatory secondary objective. They're not hard to find, they're not hard to cleanse, you could find Ruin since survivors still somehow struggle against it. You have at the minimum two people on gens, assuming one is chased, one is hunting totems.
We need something that's going to actually change up the game. Right now all they're trying is side crap that doesn't help in the slightest. Not to mention we don't have an endgame. Killer shack is supposed to be super dangerous. It houses the God Pallet and is one of the safest spots on the map. Same thing with killers in the end-game. We're supposed to be scary, but no, the game is basically over at that point.
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@Caretaker early on in the event people wanted them, but later when they had their vials it was back to gens only.
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Me and my buddies, swapping over from killer cuz we couldn't vials cuz lobbies were so bad. Played SWF. All 4 needed plants. We burnt through the plants, and the game in a about 5 or so minutes. We just traded out sections of the map to loop while the others co-op'd plants, and gens. We went in games to die, and ended up escaping most of them.
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No because that simply isn't what an objective is.
Your objective is the steps required in order to escape. In this sense you have 2 distinct goals and the required steps to furthering them are your objectives. Specifically:
Doing generators
Opening exit gates
Opening the hatch
Letting survivors die
It turns out that ignoring the key you must complete at least 6 objectives to win a game (2 gens + letting 3 survivors die + opening the hatch = 6). While yes you can in theory do more that simply isn't relevant since it is the MINIMUM we are interested in rather than the maximum
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That is still not enough information. Where are these objectives? Are they easy to spot? What must you literally do in order to complete them? Does incomplete progress save and can it be regressed? How much information does the Killer have on this hypothetical object? Can he see its aura? Is he notified about attempted completion? Are there any special mechanics involved that would effect the chase in proximity to the objective? Is the objective consistent between map, killer ect and is it just one option or is it something with more than one completion method? Do items effect it? What about perks like thanataphobia? Is tinkerer effected? Rancor? Is there a set order in which you can complete this objective relative to the existing ones? Can you get additional benefits for over completion? Are there skill checks involved? What kind of map changes would happen to fit in the new objective?
So many important questions that need answers before I can properly predict how individual killers would be effected. Time is far from the only or even most important factor
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Totems are NOT a good secondary objective because they do not properly reward the survivors. A secondary objective should not be one where the only purpose is preventing a killer perk that may or may not exist. 600bp for each dull is crap. If they want this to be a legit objective, how about throwing a few K BP bonus to all survivors when all the totems in the game have been cleansed or something.Add a totem counter as well. It has to be an objective that on its own, is worthwhile.
You gave it a good shot OP, but unfortunately it seems impossible to discuss additional objectives if there are people here who actually think Nurse is balanced. I mean....WHAT?!? You are absolutely correct that Nurse and Billy would need a nerf (nurse much more obviously) if a mandatory secondary objective were ever added.
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See, most killer mains agree that they'd need tweaks after the games didn't take 3 minutes to complete. Also, no more UI elements. You're literally asking for the game to basically play itself. Use your eyes, figure out totem spawns, use THE PERK MADE TO FIND TOTEMS. They are a good secondary objective, you all are just bad players. 600 BP, bumps up to 1000 for a hex, 3k+ if you pop all 5. In a category you're probably gonna get a good chunk of BP in if you get chased at all.
The only reward should be some Lightbringer for popping totems, and a bonus if you prevent NOED. That's it. You held M1 for 14s and got 600 BP. Oh my god, woe is you. Also Nurse is fine, the problem is you can't just mindlessly run loops and camp pallets against her so oh no, you actually have to think about how to lose her/avoid her. Gasp.
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Nurse is fine? Everyone who plays this game, who isn’t completely biased, knows Nurse is OP. It’s just become an accepted form of OP at this point, because it takes more time to become good. At this point people just live with it and really only complain when it’s something absurd like omega blink.
I also don’t think you should be making these snarky little remarks if your games are ending in escapes after 3 minutes. Maybe it’s you who needs to get better.
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No, Legion DOESN'T Need a nerf, just because a killer is different and more difficult doesn't need to aid the braindead survivor gameplay pls.
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Who said the game ended cuz they did the gens? You two really like making super biased assumptions and talking a whole lot of trash for people who die to NOED. There's this neat little thing in the game called, "S T E A L T H". Nurse has horrible MS and tracking. Also, if you don't run in a straight line, keep doing the SAME pattern repeatedly, sit at at a pallet and bait her blink into a stun. You'd realize she's difficult, but not impossible. Then again I don't expect survivors to actually try to learn anything. After all the devs have been holding your hands the last two years.
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Ok, so if YOU are the one ending the game in 3 minutes, why do only survivors need an additional objective?! Are we adding to killer as well to prolong games? Definitely should.
Not going to discuss nurse any further, because it’s ridiculous. Anyone with sense knows she’s OP, we just live with it.
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Anyone with sense can deal with a Nurse, but sure. And yea I have bad games every once in awhile just like anyone else. Cuz survivors make stupid mistakes. Against a coordinated team that doesn't just run into me, or screw up, yea. I get rolled. Also, I'm one killer out of many. That's the problem with survivors. You get one crying cuz he had a bad game and suddenly here comes the killer nerfs. Can't have the gold children upset. :c
Back in the early days this whining from both sides was met with get good, and actual promise and chances of a real fix. Then they just started rolling out nerfs and band-aids refusing to fix the glaring issues this game still suffers from. My favorite part of playing killer is seeing a much needed QOL change, only to see nerfs tacked on cuz "Muh survivors fun." No where do they ever mention if it was fun for a killer.
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If they increase regression to something like 0.4 c/s (currently it is 0.25 c/s) and put a default -5% regression on the kick that alone would help killers a lot. The problem I face as killer often is that when survivors gang up on a gen there really is no stopping them. You are either forced to sit there for ages to watch it regress or you take a chase and the other get back on the gen. Also gen tapping to keep it running. Better regression penalties would give killer a more effective way to stop gens, and it would stop survivors from tapping in your face or risk losing more progress.
Adding a second objective is not a good idea for a few reasons. First, the game is difficult enough for new players, making them learn more things just makes it that much harder to learn the game. Second, people have this fantasy that it will fix all their problems when the reality is that survivors will just find a way to rush the second objective, resulting in a net gain of maybe 30 seconds. Third, this would punish survivors that don't gen rush even harder as now the only way to escape a good killer is gen rush AND second objective rush.
End game also needs to be adjusted, because as it stands if all 4 survivors make it to power the gates the game is pretty much over for the killer. The only option here is NOED which just rewards bad killers with undeserved kills most of the time and feels cheap on the survivor end. It's just a lame solution to the problem. Exit Gate progress should regress to the previous check point (ie. the red lights) when not being worked on, and maybe don't show them to survivors so they have to actually look for them (also Wake Up could be the perk that reveals Exit Gates when powered). I'd also say that maybe killer has the ability to damage the gate like they can damage a gen and just prevent it from being used for a short time, just because there's nothing killer can do to stop the gates from opening aside from Remember Me. However this is less of an issue if they were to adjust the regression for gens since it would be easier to control the earlier parts of the game for killers.
The game really doesn't need much to fix the big issues. Very simple things would go a long way.
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I can agree with most of this. I never understood why it takes 2-3s to kick a gen, but a survivor can just walk up, tap, and suddenly it's working again. We need less band-aids and real fixes.
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I said a rework and that change would be for a happier community, I love legion and going against him/her.
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@NuclearBurrito the killer would be able to see its aura, it would not be affected by items, it would have skill checks, these objectives would be out in the open making them more dangerous , it could be regressed, the killer would only know if they got on it if he/she saw them or if they failed a skill check, perks would affect it.
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@Karl_Childers thank you, and I agree with your points, if the nurse is good at her job then you aren’t juking her.
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@thesuicidefox those are good points, we do need to help the new players and find a way to balance at rank one. I think this could actually help a lot.
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@KateBate IMO I don’t see much wrong with his add-ons, he has to stalk a lot before he can use tombstone piece. And even more for Judith’s tombstone and the pink hair add-on. I also think it’s kinda fun to play against infinite hair Myers as it adds suspense and actually makes you wonder if you’re making it out.
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It's an optional second objective, and a boring one aswell (just holding M1).
The real second objective this game needs should be something you HAVE to do as survivor in order to work on gens/open the gates.
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It is most definitely about the fun of both sides. Killer side had been getting much needed QOL buffs for the past year at the expense of the survivors fun. I can’t take you seriously if you think the fun of both sides isn’t important.
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If survivors would get a secondary objective, some things might have to be adjusted. But in order to say what exactly needs to be adjusted in which way, we have to know the secondary objective in detail first.
Let's not do the 2nd step before we've done the 1st.
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Here is more detail @NoShinyPony (the objective would take 40-60 seconds I’m not really sure how long it should take.
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"@Orion @Wolf74 what are your ideas to balance the game?"
Just for balance?
- Start with the obvious: Self Care. Make it limited. 3 token, you lose a token when you finish self healing. So you can safe them by finding other or using a medkit to finish the healing. For obvious reasons, stopping healing for any reason will make you lose part of your progressionbar.
- Gen regression can only be stopped by working on the gen for 3 seconds to avoid run by clicks to stop regression.
- Bring the buffed Thana live.
- Remove invu frames and exhaustion relief from unhooking.
- Hatch does not open if someone else already escaped.
- Hexes only light up after their first effect got triggered.
- Locker aura hiding only works for 6 seconds.
- Bring back the original killer FOV
- Fix all the individual killer issues. Freddy should be able to pick up dying survivor while they get healed. Beartraps needs their original effective size back. etc.
- Remove the exposed notification.
The list could go on, but I only picked those things that jumped my mind asap.
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1.I like this idea.
2.This is also good.
3.Yes
4.I disagree with this one.
5.Agree with this one.
6.I wish this was in the game.
7.Are you saying you can only hide the aura for six seconds in total or per locker hide?
8.Idk what the original FOV looked like.
9.Yep
10.Double yes
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Nice we can agree on most of these things.^^
For 7. right now the locker aura cover not only ruins BBQ, which was the whole intend of this buff, but also ruins Wraith, Pigs, and Myers top add ons, that let them see auras.
If a survivor jumps into a locker the aura should only be hidden for a short amount of time.
For 8. the original FoV was much wider and killer could actually see survivor crouching in front of them without the need to turn the view down. The original FOV got screwed as a band aid fix to a survivor issue called "locker peek" (killer glitching into lockers to see if someoone is inside without opening it). To avoid locker peeks, the Devs moved the killers camera. They said it would be a temporary solution until they found a better way… but they just sticked with it and the original FOV never came back. That made it much harder to spot and aim.
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Yes, that's what "secondary objective" means. It's like a side-quest or optional goals in main quests. Not to be confused with "second objective", which is literally a second main (required) objective. Regardless, if NOED complaint threads are to be believed, then killers regularly go from 0k to 4k solely due to NOED, and therefore breaking the totems is required to escape.
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I don't know if they ever checked for a true solution to locker peek, or if they just considered it "fixed" with that nerf to the killers FOV.
I never understood why they could not just turn the whole model of the survivor itself invisible while in a locker. They obviously can do that with auras, right? :P
And killer never got anything in return to compensate for that nerf of the FOV.
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I play both killer and survivor at high ranks.
Second objective would be fine, but it would have to tie in with the main objective.
Billy and Nurse are the most balanced killers in the game. Most killers below them are not viable at higher ranks due to lack of pressure.
NOED doesn't need to be touched. It's a mediocre perk and easily counter-able.
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@TreemanXD That would basically be a gen with the difference that survs can't use toolboxes.
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Noce ideas but i think the hatch should close as a door is opened. Not when the first escapes.
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I like your 2 cents.
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Survivor its already unplayable as it is, just remove noed and nerf billy and nurse.
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